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Books of the Fallen: Malazan thread


Michael Seswatha Jordan

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Did ICE write any of the characters inside the books that were published under Erikson's name? In fact, is there anything inside of Erikson's books that was directly written by ICE? If the answer to any of those questions is "yes" then I admit I'm wrong.

So you're saying that if Erikson is the first one to write a book with a character that ICE created, it means ICE didn't create that character anymore? So that which comes after determines what came before? Baffling.

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What matters is what was actually published. SE wrote and published the first five books that saw the light thereby introducing the readers to the Malazan universe and effectively creating it. Those books were not co-authored. Whatever ideas / manuscripts / boardgames ICE had during that time don't really count. Which isn't to question the "legitimacy" of his later books (or their quality, which is irrelevant to this particular point), but to only point out that the works that we actually saw first where written solely by Erikson.

Not sure who's being condescending though, MSJ. Perhaps the name-callers?

I couldn't have said it any better my self!
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Wow, this has gotten ridiculous. Let's look at facts and opinions:

Fact - Erikson and ICE created the world and the characters together. For instance, Cotillion was Erikson's character and Shadowthrone was ICE's character (even if Erikson published a book with Shadowthrone first)

Fact - Erikson repeatedly states that this is their world, not his world

Fact - During many interviews, Erikson has proactively praised ICE's work (meaning Erikson was not cornered into giving an opinion)

Fact - ICE wrote two novels (NoK & RotCG) before GotM was published, but these books were not edited and published until many years later

Opinion - since you read 5 of Erikson's books before reading any of ICE's (as admittedly one should due to publication), you have decided in your head that this Erikson's world. That is fine if you think Erikson brought the world to life, but that doesn't factually make it "his world"

Opinion - Erikson thinks that ICE is ruining his world and/or series. Maybe you think this, and it is conceivable that Erikson does as well. But none of us know Erikson's inner most thoughts, and the proactive praising provides the only FACTS we have here

Opinion - many people do not like ICE as much (but some do, some even more)

Bottom line, hate on ICE all you want as it is your opinion and you can like what you want. But regardless of what you think of the Malazan world, the fact is it was co-created by two people. Even if ICE never published, the world would have still been co-created, but I am guessing that most people would have been unaware.

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What matters is what was actually published. SE wrote and published the first five books that saw the light thereby introducing the readers to the Malazan universe and effectively creating it. Those books were not co-authored. Whatever ideas / manuscripts / boardgames ICE had during that time don't really count. Which isn't to question the "legitimacy" of his later books (or their quality, which is irrelevant to this particular point), but to only point out that the works that we actually saw first where written solely by Erikson.

Not sure who's being condescending though, MSJ. Perhaps the name-callers?

Oh lighten up. I was just saying that thread can bring out the worse in you some times. I was backing you up.

ETA: also I never did any name-calling, I asked if solo keeps a thesaurus at hand when posting and if that's how he speaks in real life. See, yes I was a asshole, its what Bakker will do to you.

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So you're saying that if Erikson is the first one to write a book with a character that ICE created, it means ICE didn't create that character anymore? So that which comes after determines what came before? Baffling.

To truly read requires witness.

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Fact - Erikson and ICE created the world and the characters together. For instance, Cotillion was Erikson's character and Shadowthrone was ICE's character (even if Erikson published a book with Shadowthrone first)

Shadowthrone, like every other character in GotM, was entirely written by Erikson.

Fact - Erikson repeatedly states that this is their world, not his world

Fact - During many interviews, Erikson has proactively praised ICE's work (meaning Erikson was not cornered into giving an opinion)

None of this is relevant.

Fact - ICE wrote two novels (NoK & RotCG) before GotM was published, but these books were not edited and published until many years later

So ICE wrote some books that were not published until after Erikson solely wrote and brought the Malazan world to life for the reader. Good point.

That is fine if you think Erikson brought the world to life, but that doesn't factually make it "his world"

This is a discussion forum, not a Wikipedia article. Of course I'm expressing my opinion, the same as everyone else. You telling me that it's only my opinion and not fact is pointless.

Opinion - Erikson thinks that ICE is ruining his world and/or series. Maybe you think this, and it is conceivable that Erikson does as well. But none of us know Erikson's inner most thoughts, and the proactive praising provides the only FACTS we have here

I admit that putting words in Erikson's mouth was uncalled for and I take it back. But the question that we're discussing now is who created the Malazan world. It's a peculiar situation because one person played a board game and had a bunch of ideas, while the other actually wrote all of the first few books that were published. This makes it a matter of opinion. My view is that it's Erikson because, as you've said above, he initially brought the world to life for the reader and solely wrote all the malazan books for the first few years.
Bottom line, hate on ICE all you want as it is your opinion and you can like what you want. But regardless of what you think of the Malazan world, the fact is it was co-created by two people. Even if ICE never published, the world would have still been co-created, but I am guessing that most people would have been unaware.

Actually, if ICE had never published, we could have safely said that the world is Erikson's.

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Shadowthrone, like every other character in GotM, was entirely written by Erikson.

None of this is relevant.

So ICE wrote some books that were not published until after Erikson solely wrote and brought the Malazan world to life for the reader. Good point.

This is a discussion forum, not a Wikipedia article. Of course I'm expressing my opinion, the same as everyone else. You telling me that it's only my opinion and not fact is pointless.

I admit that putting words in Erikson's mouth was uncalled for and I take it back. But the question that we're discussing now is who created the Malazan world. It's a peculiar situation because one person played a board game and had a bunch of ideas, while the other actually wrote all of the first few books that were published. This makes it a matter of opinion. My view is that it's Erikson because, as you've said above, he initially brought the world to life for the reader and solely wrote all the malazan books for the first few years.

Actually, if ICE had never published, we could have safely said that the world is Erikson's.

Good counterpoints. Now that this seems to be moving more toward opinion, I can see both sides.

But one more thing, my point about Shadowthrone is that ICE created the character and Erikson then wrote about that character. If the world wasn't co-created, that would potentially be lawsuit material. Other characters that Erikson wrote about were also created by ICE, but that is the example they often cite.

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Of course I'm expressing my opinion, the same as everyone else. You telling me that it's only my opinion and not fact is pointless.

Well, you do seem to have issues distinguishing the two. It's a fact that the Malazan World, characters, and plots were co-created by Scott Erikson and Ian C. Esslemont. You can refuse to accept that as much as you want, but it doesn't make it not a fact.

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Fact - Erikson and ICE created the world and the characters together. For instance, Cotillion was Erikson's character and Shadowthrone was ICE's character (even if Erikson published a book with Shadowthrone first)

Actually things are a bit different here: the pair of them are essentially author avatars. Cotillion is ICE and Shadowthrone is SE, so while you might be right that each wrote up their opposite (though I haven't read it anywhere), I don't think you can say one or the other is solely the creation of one author. I could be wrong.

There certainly are characters that are thus divided, though. The Crimson Guard are the most obvious of these for example. And Osserc.

I admit that putting words in Erikson's mouth was uncalled for and I take it back. But the question that we're discussing now is who created the Malazan world. It's a peculiar situation because one person played a board game and had a bunch of ideas, while the other actually wrote all of the first few books that were published. This makes it a matter of opinion. My view is that it's Erikson because, as you've said above, he initially brought the world to life for the reader and solely wrote all the malazan books for the first few years.

Your constant description of ICE's contribution as 'played a bunch of board games' doesn't actually make it so and is not a matter of opinion. They came up with the plot together. They are on record as saying that they came up with the plans and plotlines for all the books well in advance of anything being published, with neither making any significant change in direction to those plans once they got started.

The fact that RotCG was written before GotM came out (and in fact at about the time GotM was first written altogether) is, contrary to your assertion, very significant. It means that massive chunks of the early SE books were essentially backstory to something that ICE had already done.

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I will stop. :)

Oh you're fine. It's people that seem to think that 2+2=5, despite, you know, that it's factually wrong, that are starting to bug me.

I mean, by this logic, Alan Dean Foster created Star Wars because the novel based on the movie came out first.

Maybe you guys don't understand how co creation works? They both came up with the setting and history and characters and plot, you know, TOGETHER. It's not like ICE was over at SE place drunk one day and went WHOOA DUDE YOU SHOULD LIKE, TOTALLY CALL THAT GUY SHADOWTHRONE LOL AND NOW I WANT HALF CREDIT OMG.

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Speaking of ICE, does Orb Scepter Throne touch on Humble Measure and the pickled Seguleh? Oh, and I've just cracked Dust of Dreams. I've only read Night of Knives from ICE's contributions. Do I need to stop and read the other ICE novels before pressing on to the end of Erikson's cycle?


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Speaking of ICE, does Orb Scepter Throne touch on Humble Measure and the pickled Seguleh? Oh, and I've just cracked Dust of Dreams. I've only read Night of Knives from ICE's contributions. Do I need to stop and read the other ICE novels before pressing on to the end of Erikson's cycle?

Yes, OST does touch on that and actually features the Seguleh heavily. If you are going to read ICE's books, you should read RotCG and Stonewielder now. OST can be read before or after DoD/TCG.

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...

None of this is relevant...

I find that the ICE books are not entirely to my taste, either.

However, SE himself contradicts your position when he answers our questions at the end of the re-read of each of the Malazan book on Tor.com.

See his answer to Bellsybell for TTH: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/08/malazan-toll-the-hounds-steven-erikson-questions

See both of their answers in the first "Conversation with ICE and SE" http://www.tor.com/blogs/2010/10/a-conversation-with-malazan-series-authors-steven-erikson-and-ian-c-esslemont

Source: http://www.tor.com/features/series/malazan-reread-of-the-fallen "...the epic fantasy world created by Steven Erikson and Ian C. Esslemont."

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