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R+L=J v.76


Angalin

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Okay.

Putting aside H+A=M&J for now, why would she kill herself?

Stillborn daughter not long before finding out her brother's been murdered by her dead baby-daddy's brother? It's a lot to deal with all at once.

Edit: Assuming she's really dead.

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Okay.

Putting aside H+A=M&J for now, why would she kill herself?

There is only what appears to be a third-hand account that she lept to her death from the Palestone Sword (tower in Starfall) into the sea. Her body was not recovered, but apparently she had been grief stricken enough for it to seem acceptable.

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As Ygrain said, we are here to help you with any doubt and/or curiosity you have about the theory. No need to feel :dunce: , promise us LOL

On a a side note, theguyfromtheVale mentioned at the end of v.75 some interesting bit about episode 1, blue roses and flowers meanings. Here is the full report:

He [Daario] brings her flowers. I was happy to see that she doesn't swoon over this, instead she is playfully hostile and continues to threaten him with worse placement in the caravan. It's a cute scene. He presents her with three flowers. One is a blue rose, which raised my eyebrow. I think he calls it a dust rose. There's a red flower, and something like baby's breath. He explains that she needs to listen to her people and realize they know their world better than she does. What she dismissed as pretty flowers have uses. I think the blue rose has healing properties and the baby's breathe may have been a poison. Either way, two of the flowers are useful and everyone from the area grows up knowing these things. He tells Dany she needs to learn from them and recognize their strengths to be a good leader. Then he tells her the third flower is just pretty and gives them to her as a rough bouquet. He leaves. She's left considering his words and has a little bit of a sparkle in her eye.

Source

Eh, you noted that. I just put my spin on it ;)

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No, Ned said with sadness in his voice. Now it ends.

'Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later. If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. If they had done something that was against the vows of the Kingsguard, again Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honors sake.'

This brings a question to mind. Why would the honorable KG keep Ned from his dying sister? Surely they don't believe Ned would harm her. The KG must have been keeping her hidden away by orders or an oath. Even her own brother couldn't reach her without killing the KG first. Sounds like a hostage to me. I am not saying the KG themselves abducted Lyanna, but they were keeping people away from her.

Then to Lyanna's choices. She did not want to marry Robert whom already slept with someone else and had a child. She thought he would be unfaithful later on. So she decides to run away with another man who already has a wife and child. Then marry than same man. Doesn't make sense to me. If she married Rhaegar, it seems it was against her will.

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Okay.

Putting aside H+A=M&J for now, why would she kill herself?

I think it's time for one of Creighton's crackpots. I think she is dead, but there is this oddity I can't shake with BB.

When looking at inverted symbolism and obvious and obscure parallels, something very strange happens.

Dany of course is the obvious Targ queen and Jon the hidden King if you follow the theory on Jon. But Jon is an obvious bastard, which would mean Dany is an obscure or hidden Bastard. Now it has been done before, but I want to apply that theme to it.

BB we all know how that story is applied to Jon, yet at the same time the very end of that story can clearly be applied to Ashara. Throwing herself from a tower. Yet we see another parallel with Lyanna who also died at a tower with a pale sword.

A further parallel continues with Ned. Not just tied to both woman, but he is highly protective of not just Jon but he nearly went to war with Robert to protect Dany.

Ned is very secretive about both woman.

Enter Darry. Who is described rather similar to Ned and plays a similar role. Ned of course never told Jon about his parents and lied about his father.

If the inverse holds true then Darry lied to Dany about her parents at least her mother.

The only thing I have to back that up is that Selmy thinks how much she looks like Ashara, and the fact that Ashara is said to have carried a daughter.

I don't know, if any of that is right outside of Selmy and the Daughter, and the parallels. It does have me wondering though.

One other oddity is that Ned never lied to Jon about his mother, he just never told him about her. Dany has an obscure parallel, She was never told the truth about her father.

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This brings a question to mind. Why would the honorable KG keep Ned from his dying sister? Surely they don't believe Ned would harm her. The KG must have been keeping her hidden away by orders or an oath. Even her own brother couldn't reach her without killing the KG first. Sounds like a hostage to me. I am not saying the KG themselves abducted Lyanna, but they were keeping people away from her.

Then to Lyanna's choices. She did not want to marry Robert whom already slept with someone else and had a child. She thought he would be unfaithful later on. So she decides to run away with another man who already has a wife and child. Then marry than same man. Doesn't make sense to me. If she married Rhaegar, it seems it was against her will.

First, Ned has no reason to fault the Kingsguard for any of their actions, even years later. So, obviously something was much more important than Lyanna in the tower. If they had been holding Lyanna hostage, why did they reference their vow? It doesn't make sense.

Lyanna certainly can choose to marry the prince, especially if Elia is no longer capable of providing heirs. It seems funny to me that anyone would suggest that Lyanna was forced to do anything. We are talking about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the gal who laid into three squires, and wanted to carry her own sword.

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This brings a question to mind. Why would the honorable KG keep Ned from his dying sister? Surely they don't believe Ned would harm her. The KG must have been keeping her hidden away by orders or an oath. Even her own brother couldn't reach her without killing the KG first. Sounds like a hostage to me. I am not saying the KG themselves abducted Lyanna, but they were keeping people away from her.

My best guess is that maybe they thought Ned might have harmed the child. He wouldn't have hurt Lyanna, obviously, but the son with a claim to the Iron Throne, which he just won for Rob?

That or the KG just really wanted to stay true to their final order. The whole thing is bizarre. And like, before they started fighting Ned couldn't have asked "hey how is she? Dying or anything?"

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Stillborn daughter not long before finding out her brother's been murdered by her dead baby-daddy's brother? It's a lot to deal with all at once.

Edit: Assuming she's really dead.

So it was Brandon Stark's stillborn daughter? Does the timeline work for that? How "not long before" are we talking about?

My best guess is that maybe they thought Ned might have harmed the child. He wouldn't have hurt Lyanna, obviously, but the son with a claim to the Iron Throne, which he just won for Rob?

That or the KG just really wanted to stay true to their final order. The whole thing is bizarre. And like, before they started fighting Ned couldn't have asked "hey how is she? Dying or anything?"

The dream wasn't literal, right? Maybe they didn't actually talk at all.

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So it was Brandon Stark's stillborn daughter? Does the timeline work for that? How "not long before" are we talking about?

The dream wasn't literal, right? Maybe they didn't actually talk at all.

Err, have you visited the FAQs on page one, much? Jaime was fifteen at Harrenhal, and seventeen when he killed Aerys. Daenerys was born nine moons after her mother fled King's Landing, from her viewpoint.

The "same old dream" means to me that Ned has had this dream many times, and what we get is the salient points of the conversation. It makes sense to Ned.

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The dream wasn't literal, right? Maybe they didn't actually talk at all.

I think there comes a point where we need to make an educated guess as to what happened and what didn't. For me the conversation between Ned and the three KG at the ToJ took place. However things like grey wraiths, horses made of mist, storm of rose petals and blood streaked sky are in all likelihood more symbolic. Furthermore, Ned describes this as an old dream i.e. he has had this dream before.

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I think you both missed the points I was trying to make... let me try again.



I don't think that, assuming Ashara had a stillborn daughter who's father was Brandon Stark, meaning Ned brother, that it could have been soon before Ned brought Dawn to Starfall. Before Rhaegar and Lyanna left Brandon was at Winterfell and Ashara was, god know where, but presumably not in Winterfell. They couldn't have been doing any baby making in this timeframe. So unless they go together after her left Winterfell but before he charged into the Red Keep demanding Rhaegar's head, their chid would have to have been born much earlier than the ToJ events.



When I said the dream wasn't literal I didn't mean that Ned had never had this dream before, just that it wasn't necessarily exactly how it happen in the dream. They didn't necessarily pose and exchange hauntingly beautifully prose that makes me cry every time I read it. Perhaps they exchange this information with other words or, I don't know, they just looked at each other and no words were necessary.


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No, Ned said with sadness in his voice. Now it ends.

'Ned knows the outcome, and he regrets that he had to kill the three finest knights in the kingdom, even years later. If Lyanna had been kidnapped or mistreated while they were present Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. If they had done something that was against the vows of the Kingsguard, again Ned would not have that favorable view of these men. As fate has it, because these men were so honorable, on both sides of this meeting, they were fated to fight to the bitter end, for honors sake.'

This brings a question to mind. Why would the honorable KG keep Ned from his dying sister? Surely they don't believe Ned would harm her. The KG must have been keeping her hidden away by orders or an oath. Even her own brother couldn't reach her without killing the KG first. Sounds like a hostage to me. I am not saying the KG themselves abducted Lyanna, but they were keeping people away from her.

Then to Lyanna's choices. She did not want to marry Robert whom already slept with someone else and had a child. She thought he would be unfaithful later on. So she decides to run away with another man who already has a wife and child. Then marry than same man. Doesn't make sense to me. If she married Rhaegar, it seems it was against her will.

good points,

Lyanna also understood the pressure to marry out of obligation. Lyanna questioned was as to Robert's character. We don't know if that was the case with Rhaegar. I do agree that polygamy might be a sticking point with Lyanna. However, it is not the only option. Rhaegar was in a loveless marriage. Lyanna was on the verge of one. She would have known that Rhaegar was no more free to avoid his marriage than she was to avoid marrying Robert. That is unless they ran away.

Now as the hostage situation goes. She was a hostage in the North facing the prospect of a forced marriage to Robert. It would seem that there was only a question as to who held the hostage and not to her status. If Ned was allowed to take her it would presumably be to return her to Robert. A vow to Rhaegar to not let them take her and return her to Robert would explain the situation.

The bed of blood comes to mind. If Lyanna was not in or incredibly close to labor when Ned arrived, calling the conditions unsanitary would be an understatement. Th presume the child had arrived and the KG knew is to also accept that they left Lyanna in her bed of blood for some time. Yes, I do get that sanitation in the time was not exactly up to code. I also get that leaving a new mother on sheets stained with blood and afterbirth for a significant amount off time would hardly be natural even for the time.

It would mean that Lyanna gave birth alone or that one or more of the KG helped in the delivery of the baby. If it was alone she must have finished giving birth and yelled "it's a boy" or "all done come in and see." The KG then just went about sharpening swords. That is also the case with them assisting.

Defending a pregnant lady giving or about to give birth seems more likely.

"They" found him holding Lyanna's hand. If lyanna died immediately after the showdown, there was only Howland reed to find him,

Did one of them go to get help with the birth? If Howland did and it was too late by the time he and the midwife/maester got back that would explain it.

After Lyanna died, Ned and Howland (perhaps some more) buried the 8 bodies with the stones they got from taking down the tower of joy. That would seem to be a pretty big job for two people. It would also mean that the bulk of Ned's forces did not know where he was for some time.

Ned did say now it ends. Ned may not have had men riding to him at that moment. However, their discovery of the ToJ was an eventulity. Regardless of the outcome of the skirmish, it was the end. They were the last resistance left and the force bearing down on them too great to withstand.

More people would also have known about the baby. Unless the midwife/maester took the child to say Starfall. That would make the trip to drop off Dawn a pretext and picking up Jon from the wetnurse of starfall the real reason.

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I think you both missed the points I was trying to make... let me try again.

I don't think that, assuming Ashara had a stillborn daughter who's father was Brandon Stark, meaning Ned brother, that it could have been soon before Ned brought Dawn to Starfall. Before Rhaegar and Lyanna left Brandon was at Winterfell and Ashara was, god know where, but presumably not in Winterfell. They couldn't have been doing any baby making in this timeframe. So unless they go together after her left Winterfell but before he charged into the Red Keep demanding Rhaegar's head, their chid would have to have been born much earlier than the ToJ events.

When I said the dream wasn't literal I didn't mean that Ned had never had this dream before, just that it wasn't necessarily exactly how it happen in the dream. They didn't necessarily pose and exchange hauntingly beautifully prose that makes me cry every time I read it. Perhaps they exchange this information with other words or, I don't know, they just looked at each other and no words were necessary.

Oh, I think that I understood you well enough. Barristan thinks that Ashara was dishonored at Harrenhal, likely because she was at term 9 months later. I was pointing out the timeline if one assumes that she conceived at Harrenhal. I believe that we may find out that she delivered a healthy boy, but that is beside the point on this thread.

There appears that there was nearly a year of winter following the Tourney at Harrenhal. After that Brandon's and Catelyn's betrothal was announced, and Littlefinger challenged. Brandon responded to the challenge at Riverrun, and very nearly killed Littlefinger. Brandon left Catelyn to attend to an "errand" promising to return soon. Littlefinger could not be moved for a fortnight, but was borne away on a litter when he had recovered enough to be moved. It was on his return trip that Brandon received word that had him ride to King's Landing. He was arrested, and his father was summoned. Rickard arrived with a contingent of men, and both he and Brandon were killed along with all of the men, except one. Then Aerys commanded that Jon Arryn send the heads of Robert and Ned to him, and the response was the beginning of the rebellion, which lasted for about a year. Ned arrived at the tower of joy no more that 3.5 weeks after the fall of King's Landing. After that he returns the sword Dawn to House Dayne, and Ashara dies later than that.

The dream prose is likely only the important parts of the conversation that Ned held with the Kingsguard when he arrived. It does contain the information that is important for Ned to make sense of what happened. Some things may be figurative, and some of the dialog may be paraphrasing what was said. That particular stretch of prose shows a lot of care in the writing.

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First, Ned has no reason to fault the Kingsguard for any of their actions, even years later. So, obviously something was much more important than Lyanna in the tower. If they had been holding Lyanna hostage, why did they reference their vow? It doesn't make sense.

Lyanna certainly can choose to marry the prince, especially if Elia is no longer capable of providing heirs. It seems funny to me that anyone would suggest that Lyanna was forced to do anything. We are talking about the Knight of the Laughing Tree, the gal who laid into three squires, and wanted to carry her own sword.

Assuming and it is a large assumption that they made reference (rather than explained) their kingsguard vow. The vow was to protect the king, obey his orders, and keep his secrets. There is no reason to limit the vow to one part. That makes obvious importance much less so obvious.

Ned condemned Jamie for killing the king though it was the "right" thing to do. Ned never questioned the right or wrong of defending the king that had killed his father and brother. He judged Jamie because Jamie was sworn to protect him. Ned judged on keeping an oath not the content of the oath kept.

We are also talking about the Lyanna that would have wed Robert (in spite of her feelings about it) had she not been "kidnapped." Your fact that she wanted to carry her own sword also includes that she was not allowed to do so. Otherwise the fact would be Lyanna carried her own sword.

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Going back to how big the dragons are supposed to get, in seeing the trailor for the new "Godzilla" reboot, she is pretty huge.

And not saying she is supposed to be a dragon, but thinking of scale.

Maybe it would be best if they didn't get quite that big.

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My best guess is that maybe they thought Ned might have harmed the child. He wouldn't have hurt Lyanna, obviously, but the son with a claim to the Iron Throne, which he just won for Rob?

That or the KG just really wanted to stay true to their final order. The whole thing is bizarre. And like, before they started fighting Ned couldn't have asked "hey how is she? Dying or anything?"

If the KG thought Ned was a baby killer and a kinslayer, one would think they would bring it up and attack rather than letting him have his word. I mean if you were keeping Sandusky out of the pediatric ward of a hospital, would you listen to him tell you how his month went? No, you would punch him in the mouth and start kicking him when he hit the floor.

Now about the threat to an heir. Assuming that Ned did not know Jon was in the ToJ is not a big leap. Ned mentioned the heir apparent Viserys fled to dragonstone. He did not mention a pursuit of that heir and his presence showed that he had gone the wrong way to pursue a mission o stamping out rival claims.

I still have questions about the child being there with lyanna in a bed of blood and 3 men outside sharpening swords. I also have a question about Lyanna keeping a baby for days weeks or months and not giving him a name. If that was the case the character known as Jon Snow may actually be Aerys Targaryen III.

If Lyanna was dying after childbirth in the ToJ when Ned and company arrived; None of the 3 KG present thought they might need a wetnurse anytime soon or any kind of medical attention. They just stood out on the lawn and waited for the enemy to show up. What good would it do to protect an infant if the KG had no way to keep it alive?

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I think you both missed the points I was trying to make... let me try again.

I don't think that, assuming Ashara had a stillborn daughter who's father was Brandon Stark, meaning Ned brother, that it could have been soon before Ned brought Dawn to Starfall. Before Rhaegar and Lyanna left Brandon was at Winterfell and Ashara was, god know where, but presumably not in Winterfell. They couldn't have been doing any baby making in this timeframe. So unless they go together after her left Winterfell but before he charged into the Red Keep demanding Rhaegar's head, their chid would have to have been born much earlier than the ToJ events.

The speculation of why Ashara supposedly committed suicide is exactly that, speculation. Barristan does not know, was not anywhere near, most likely had not seen her for the best part of two years. He's also an old man recalling events that he wasn't directly involved in from nearly 20 years ago. He speculates, not even sure in his own mind just wondering if perhaps it was due to the lover she had lost, the brother she had lost, or the baby she had lost not long before. The timing on the baby in his thoughts is a very vague term and could easily be over a year 20 years later. For example, something that happened in 1985 could easily be considered to be considered to be 'not long after' (or whatever his exact wording was) something else that happened in 1984, by someone recalling back that far. Especially by a non-participant.

In short, we have no real indication on either the validity nor the timing of her dead baby affecting her state of mind.

Nor in fact any reliable information that there was any such baby (but no reason to disbelieve this either) as Barristan is clearly a second or third hand source on this, only telling us what someone else has told him.

As an aside, I think it most likely that she did lose a child, probably Brandon's from Harrenhal, faked her suicide (or her family did) and took a ship, probably carrying baby fAegon, to Essos where in time she assumed the role of Septa Lemore. But to explore that, better search for other, more appropriate, threads.

When I said the dream wasn't literal I didn't mean that Ned had never had this dream before, just that it wasn't necessarily exactly how it happen in the dream. They didn't necessarily pose and exchange hauntingly beautifully prose that makes me cry every time I read it. Perhaps they exchange this information with other words or, I don't know, they just looked at each other and no words were necessary.

I don't think there is any reason to doubt that part of the dream. Its an old dream, familiar, not just a fever dream. If you understand the mentalities and situations of the particpants it makes perfect sense and is a natural exchange, beautiful or not. Ned doesn't want to fight these men he respects and offers them every way out he can, subtly, with honour. They stand firm because of things Ned does not know (Jon, their legit King is upstairs) and they cannot tell him. In the end they have to fight.

The fever part of the dream is some of the symbolic imagery, especially at the end and the way Vayon Poole, Ned's steward's, voice bleeds into the dream (initially as Lyanna, or so a confused Ned thinks) as he tries to wake Ned.

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If there is everything to gain and nothing to lose take the bet... If there is nothing to be gained and anything to be lost do not,



I am wondering just how far predictions and speculation would get if they were tied to a credibility or accuracy meter?



With the forthcoming release of WoW, it just might be possible to do exactly that,



In short now seems a good time to place a bet...


R plus L equals J


Jon is legitimate---without the how



Now for some bolder bets


Jon was born after the showdown at the ToJ


Ned's promise was to raise Jon as a son---Not to protect him from Robert


The vow Gerold explained was a vow to Rhaegar


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