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Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-Read Project Part II: ACoK & ASoS


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The most powerful types of magic seem to be malevolent, in this world. The Others raise the dead, not to restore life, but to work as their slaves. Craster sacrifices his sons to them. Melisandre births shadow assassins. She and the Red Priests burn captives alive to release magical power that they can use. Dany burns Mirri alive to hatch dragons. Bran wargs into Hodor's mind.

The Maesters are right to be wary of magic, but stupid to think they can just wish it out of existence.

That says it pretty well. There are uncertain and debatable points. We don't know much, for example, about the children of the forest, or about Marwyn. "The Mage" is an interesting character. It's appropriate to bring him in here. We start learning about him at approximately the point in time that we have reached in the story. I tend to think well of him, because he is one of the characters who shows analytical ability and a willingness to look at the world as it is. What is to be said about shadow binders and warlocks? Marwyn's approach, unlike that of his colleagues, is to actually study the matter--go to the east and find out as much as he can. This, of course, doesn't make him a good guy, just someone who should be listened to more carefully than many people seem to want to do. He may be overdoing things when he says that the maesters of the Citadel want to murder Aemon, but I think he is basically right about the grey sheep. They have closed their eyes. To me, their approach is something like this: "Thermonuclear weapons are terrible things. Radiation is very dangerous. Therefore, no one should study nuclear physics."

Magic seems, at best, a dangerous and uncertain tool. But in our world, radiation can be put to good uses. The difference between poison and medicine concerns things like purpose, need, and dosage. In ASoIaF, magic can be put to good use I think. It's a problematic matter though.

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Hasn't he hinted of possible flashback scenes from Asshai?

I found an interview from 7/2011

"GRRM: Well you learn more about the Doom in A Dance With Dragons and yes you may learn in subsequent volumes; you may learn even more about that and I don’t know if you’ll see Valyria itself but you’ll see….you know it’s a country so there’s a city in the heart of it and it’s a large country, but you may see glimpses of the fringes of the Doom. Actually Asshai’s another question; it’s kind of at the other end of the world. I’m not sure if we’ll actually ever go to Asshai. You may learn more about it through Melisandre or other people remembering it or talking about it."

So there is a bit of hope we may learn more of it, but I don't think Dany will be going there.

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I found an interview from 7/2011

"GRRM: Well you learn more about the Doom in A Dance With Dragons and yes you may learn in subsequent volumes; you may learn even more about that and I don’t know if you’ll see Valyria itself but you’ll see….you know it’s a country so there’s a city in the heart of it and it’s a large country, but you may see glimpses of the fringes of the Doom. Actually Asshai’s another question; it’s kind of at the other end of the world. I’m not sure if we’ll actually ever go to Asshai. You may learn more about it through Melisandre or other people remembering it or talking about it."

So there is a bit of hope we may learn more of it, but I don't think Dany will be going there.

I couldn't see her reaching Westeros if she travelled further East.

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Great Essay Sean :bowdown:







Dany remains a sharp-eyed observer of others. She notes that Xharo is insincere. She spots the cutpurses in the crowd.





Magic is Coming Back into the World.



The firemage was a confidence man, until recently. Now he can actually perform magic. It is at about this time that Tyrion visits the pyromancers in Kings’ Landing, where Hallayne informs him that their spells are now working far more effectively than before. In Dany’s final chapter in A Clash of Kings, we learn that the magic of the warlocks is working again, whereas Xharo had previously dismissed them as a joke. Melisandre is a magician of a far higher order than the firemage, but even she has used trickery and powders in the past. Later, she learns that her magic is now greater than before. From Quaithe, we learn that this is because of the birth of the dragons. Magic had never completely died out in the World, after the death of the last dragons. But, it had grown substantially weaker, to the point where many inhabitants of Westeros regarded it as a myth.



The rebirth of magic was never a conscious act on Dany’s part. But, something, whether a deity, fate, or some other force, intended that she should be instrumental in bringing it back. In my view, Dany is right to see a purpose in the Red Comet leading her through the desert to Qarth. It remains to be seen whether the rebirth of magic is a good thing. After all, Dany hatched her dragons by performing a spell that involved burning a victim alive. Most of the magic-users we encounter in the books are sinister people.





Quaithe is likely concealing truth from her. Although her advice to leave Qarth proves to be good, there is no reason to believe that any good would come of going to Asshai, given the suspicion that everyone has for that city.








I agree Dany remains sharp eyed and very observant and I think it stems from her living on the streets when her and Viserys ran from city to city.



Another quote I saw from this chapter that expresses this trait was:



Xaro’s flowery protestations of passion amused her, but his manner was at odds with his words. While Ser Jorah had scarcely been able to keep his eyes from her bare breast when he’d helped her into the palanquin, Xaro hardly deigned to notice it, even in these close confines. And she had seen the beautiful boys who surrounded the merchant prince, flitting through his palace halls in wisps of silk.


She spotted it out that he is homosexual and in comparison to Loras in westeros I don't think a lot of women (high ladies) have noticed that Loras or even Renly liked men.


Hmm. On Quaithe, I'm not so sure she wants Dany to go to Asshai. I always thought the shadow part of her words referred to Drogon's shadow since most of her advice seems to be about dragons. She must pass under his shadow to touch the light, when she rides him she touches the light? Or I could be wrong and that is her intention.






Excellent analysis Sean! :thumbsup:





This was an important realization for Dany, she knows she must guard herself from becoming bitter by the rejection. However, she also notes:




“No, that is defeat. I have something Viserys never had. I have the dragons. The dragons are all the difference.”






I also think this is an important quote in relation to Dany;s arc. One of her major mistakes in ADWD is that she forgot that "the dragons are all the difference"





.



Part of her would have liked nothing more than to lead her people back to Vaes Tolorro, and make the dead city bloom.



Deep inside, what Dany really wants is a peaceful, stable life. I think that is one of her great paradoxes, she wants a stable, peaceful life




Agreed


Deep down that is the life she wants but she feels its her duty as a Targaryen to get revenge for her family or a duty to live up to the name


She even makes a similar remark in AGOT


If I were not the blood of the dragon, she thought wistfully, this could be my home. She was khaleesi, she had a strong man and a swift horse, handmaids to serve her, warriors to keep her safe, an honored place in the dosh khaleen awaiting her when she grew old…and in her womb grew a son who would one day bestride the world. That should be enough for any woman…but not for the dragon. With Viserys gone, Daenerys was the last, the very last. She was the seed of kings and conquerors, and so too the child inside her. She must not forget.







I read some post on the forum that GRRM says Dany will never go to Asshai, does anyone know if that is true??



Can we please make her go there as it sounds like Asshai may be the source of all magic and answers on this planet?!?!?1





I remember in another SSM he said we might see other places east of Qarth but he didn't specify Asshai.






Given the POV of Mel, I find it highly possible that Quaithe does not have any idea about half the things she said but just like Mel, she is acting as sure as hell. Just like the towers in Mel's vision were not actually Eastwatch but she pretended that way; I think the shadow she was talking about (probably saw in a vision) is probably not Asshai but she is prefering to give extremely vague answers to hid her ignorance.




Thats a possibility, but I think Quaithe's words aren't prophecies but rather advice.






In terms of other things I noticed in this chapter.



Dany’s tight silver collar was chafing against her throat. She unfastened it and flung it aside.


This quote is awfully similar to when she removes her tokar in Meereen before Drogon comes and also in the last ACOK chapter where she removes her Qarth garments for her Dothraki ones. I think symbollically they are bothe part of the Queen in silk vs Khaleesi motive in Dany's arc.


Also:


“Viserys sold my mother’s crown, and men called him a beggar. I shall keep this one, so men will call me a queen.” And so she did, though the weight of it made her neck ache.


I believe this is Martin's version of saying rulling is not easy as the crown gives her a neck ache she also discovers this in ADWD.


Also:


She hated it, as her brother must have. All those years of running from city to city one step ahead of the Usurper’s knives, pleading for help from archons and princes and magisters, buying our food with flattery. He must have known how they mocked him. Small wonder he turned so angry and bitter. In the end it had driven him mad. It will do the same to me if I let it. Part of her would have liked nothing more than to lead her people back to Vaes Tolorro, and make the dead city bloom. No, that is defeat. I have something Viserys never had. I have the dragons. The dragons are all the difference.


I think this is key in analyzing Dany's character. Since she became a leader at the beginning of this book she has often drawn the line between her and Viserys. She doesn't want to make the same mistakes he made so she makes those comparisons at times. I also think thats why in ADWD when she was hungry on the Dothraki sea she had a vision of what Viserys would do if he had dragons, her subconscious was making those comparisons.












.

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OH :stillsick: :stillsick: :devil: ALSO....HBO Spoiler




Farewell to Joffrey at the end of his reign. You have been dead in the books for years and now, finally, will die on the show as well. No one will ever have to see or hear you again you little shit. One thing everyone on the forum can agree on; 'We all hate you and cannot wait to see you choke to death this Sunday night'.



All hail Tommen of House Baratheon Lannister, The First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.



Long may your ridiculous mother reign in your place.





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I also think this is an important quote in relation to Dany;s arc. One of her major mistakes in ADWD is that she forgot that "the dragons are all the difference"

Indeed, not only does she have her dragons (who are now an integral part of her) she IS a dragon (in the symbolic sense). To paraphrase you, she lost herself and became a Queen when in reality she is a Khaleesi.

ETA: Woo-ooh my 1000 post!

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OH :stillsick: :stillsick: :devil: ALSO....HBO Spoiler

Farewell to Joffrey at the end of his reign. You have been dead in the books for years and now, finally, will die on the show as well. No one will ever have to see or hear you again you little shit. One thing everyone on the forum can agree on; 'We all hate you and cannot wait to see you choke to death this Sunday night'.

All hail Tommen of House Baratheon Lannister, The First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.

Long may your ridiculous mother reign in your place.

:lol:

Ah, how time flies....

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Great Essay Sean :bowdown:

I think this is key in analyzing Dany's character. Since she became a leader at the beginning of this book she has often drawn the line between her and Viserys. She doesn't want to make the same mistakes he made so she makes those comparisons at times. I also think thats why in ADWD when she was hungry on the Dothraki sea she had a vision of what Viserys would do if he had dragons, her subconscious was making those comparisons.

Many thanks.

We do however see occasions in which she justifies her views or actions with reference to what Viserys would have said or done.

The Dany/Viserys relationship (even after his death) is a good example of "the human heart in conflict with itself." To us, Viserys was an appalling person, who would happily have sold Dany into a brothel if the price had been right (and provided he could enjoy her from time to time). At the rational level she can see his faults, while at the emotional level, he's still "the true king", and beloved brother.

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Many thanks.

We do however see occasions in which she justifies her views or actions with reference to what Viserys would have said or done.

The Dany/Viserys relationship (even after his death) is a good example of "the human heart in conflict with itself." To us, Viserys was an appalling person, who would happily have sold Dany into a brothel if the price had been right (and provided he could enjoy her from time to time). At the rational level she can see his faults, while at the emotional level, he's still "the true king", and beloved brother.

That is correct. In another way though, it is a good example of how well Dany fits into the ideas and attitudes of the Seven Kingdoms. In numerous posts on sites like this one, I have read that there is no such thing as a one-sided contract. But I see precious little of this attitude in the text of ASoIaF. One-sided "contracts" are very much the norm there. The king is the king. That is it. Dany's attitude toward Viserys is quite typical. Monarchical systems can be this way, but they do not have to be so. In the 7K, it seems that the concept of tyranny really doesn't exist. I don't think that the word "depose" is ever used in ASoIaF. Is there a single passage where any character says something along the lines of "the king has broken his trust"? I don't think so. If the king comes straight at you or some of your loved ones with an ax, then you might react. If, however, you killed the guy, then you'd feel terribly guilty about the matter. A lot of Dany's "true king" statements remind me of similar statements by a variety of characters--Eddard Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Kevan Lannister...

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Many thanks.

We do however see occasions in which she justifies her views or actions with reference to what Viserys would have said or done.

The Dany/Viserys relationship (even after his death) is a good example of "the human heart in conflict with itself." To us, Viserys was an appalling person, who would happily have sold Dany into a brothel if the price had been right (and provided he could enjoy her from time to time). At the rational level she can see his faults, while at the emotional level, he's still "the true king", and beloved brother.

Fair enough, I agree, I think it was ASOS where she was harsh on Jorah or Barristan for not calling him king.

A lot of Dany's "true king" statements remind me of similar statements by a variety of characters--Eddard Stark, Stannis Baratheon, Kevan Lannister...

:bowdown: This is a good parallel.

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A couple of generations ago, Ursula K. Le Guin put forth her "basic canon of fantasy." According to Ms. Le Guin, this canon is "you get to make up the rules, but then you've got to follow them." In her Earthsea novels, she presents magic as a kind of alternate science. There are principles upon which it is based. There are schools where the principles are taught. Martin's approach in ASoIaF is very different, but I don't think you can say that he is violating the basic canon. The fundamental rule seems to be that the rules are beyond human ken. Magic is powerful, dangerous, and far from fully predictable. I think the author will not only keep the reason for magic cycles hidden. He will never even make it clear that there is such a thing as a fundamental root cause, or even a set of consistent principles, behind magic. This isn't to say there is no such thing in Martin's world. But if there is, then people haven't and won't discover it.

It seems probable to me that the dragons are at least part of the cause of the waxing of magic. One possibility is that there is a series of interactions. Perhaps when the things of ice (e.g. the Others) strengthen, then the things of fire (e.g. dragons) will also do so. Ice does not have to proceed fire, but some sort of linkage will always be there. A related possibility is that of positive feedback loops. Some strengthening of magic helps to bring about a stirring in dragon eggs and dreams in a potential dragon mother. This stirring increases the power of magic in the world. The increase makes the birth of dragons more probable. The birth of the dragons increases the potency of certain types of magic. This increased potency...And so on.

I find it interesting to speculate on these matters. GRRM will almost certainly never spell things out. He has provided (intentionally, I believe) an interesting environment where readers can come up with their own "discoveries" (or possibilities, or speculations, or--lots of terms are possible here).

The process of learning itself seems vague and uncertain to me. In my opinion, Dany didn't really learn much from Mirri. She just got a single idea, a last piece of the puzzle. Also, Mirri, unlike mages, wizards, and similar persons of power in the fantasies I've read, fails to perceive anything in Dany. I don't see good evidence that a spell of any sort was cast during the pyre scene, by MMD, Daenerys, or anyone else. There are other factors in the story that lead me to believe that the business of learning magic is at best very slippery. For one thing, the maesters, knowledgeable fellows in other fields, have the business all wrong. They seem to think that they can make magic go away by denying its power or saying that it has left the world.

Surprisingly, Martin has said he'll explain the cause of the magical seasons (9th answer of interview), but you're correct that he'll never give us a thorough guide to how magic works in ASoIaF. I doubt he even has one. According to an SSM, "George answered that he doesn't have to worry about contradicting his magical system because he's deliberately limited the magic and intentionally tries to keep it magical and mysterious."

"The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules. Nor precise words and series of passes that you forget when you have done them and have to learn again."

Martin says right there that "Daenerys hatches the dragons," so we can safely say Dany hatched the dragons (not that this should even be in doubt, but it somehow is elsewhere on this forum). MMD mocks Dany, saying "By itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them." But Dany didn't need any magic words. Martin says he doesn't reduce magic to a series of passwords. To paraphrase his above quote, he had Dany making it up as she went along. She might've done anything. Her presence, her instinct, was a key component. From her dragon dreams, her gaining strength from the eggs and feeling a warmth in them that no one else did, he highly suggests she formed a bond with the dragons that aided their hatching, but there's no secret recipe to be reverse engineered.

I agree that dragons amplify magic beyond themselves. The textual evidence is overwhelming. People often point to the Others appearing first, but no one claims dragons reintroduced magic. The Others had been around for years, taking Craster's babies, and magic stayed largely dormant. There's no evidence that the Others ever left the world.

That says it pretty well. There are uncertain and debatable points. We don't know much, for example, about the children of the forest, or about Marwyn. "The Mage" is an interesting character. It's appropriate to bring him in here. We start learning about him at approximately the point in time that we have reached in the story. I tend to think well of him, because he is one of the characters who shows analytical ability and a willingness to look at the world as it is. What is to be said about shadow binders and warlocks? Marwyn's approach, unlike that of his colleagues, is to actually study the matter--go to the east and find out as much as he can. This, of course, doesn't make him a good guy, just someone who should be listened to more carefully than many people seem to want to do. He may be overdoing things when he says that the maesters of the Citadel want to murder Aemon, but I think he is basically right about the grey sheep. They have closed their eyes. To me, their approach is something like this: "Thermonuclear weapons are terrible things. Radiation is very dangerous. Therefore, no one should study nuclear physics."

Magic seems, at best, a dangerous and uncertain tool. But in our world, radiation can be put to good uses. The difference between poison and medicine concerns things like purpose, need, and dosage. In ASoIaF, magic can be put to good use I think. It's a problematic matter though.

Magic defeated the Others once before, and will almost certainly be needed again. Martin has said there will be a lot more magic in the last book, though he's also said "Magic should never be the solution to a problem." Which is hard to square with Stannis' deus ex machina shadowbaby, but I think Martin will eventually make him suffer for that (beyond just aging a little faster), and likewise Dany will suffer if her dragons accomplish anything good for her or the world. I've abandoned any hope of her surviving.

<>

Back to the chapter at hand, Dany says "I am their rightful queen" in response to Jorah's claim that her invading army would unite Westeros against her, but I don't think she's actually disagreeing with his advice here, just disturbed by a truth she'd already considered. From the previous chapter: "Her people had followed her across the red waste as she chased her comet, and would follow her across the poison water too, but they would not be enough. Even her dragons might not be enough. Viserys had believed that the realm would rise for its rightful king . . . but Viserys had been a fool, and fools believe in foolish things."

Subsequently, Dany is skeptical of Barristan's claims that she'll be welcomed in Westeros.

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Magic defeated the Others once before, and will almost certainly be needed again. Martin has said there will be a lot more magic in the last book, though he's also said "Magic should never be the solution to a problem." Which is hard to square with Stannis' deus ex machina shadowbaby, but I think Martin will eventually make him suffer for that (beyond just aging a little faster), and likewise Dany will suffer if her dragons accomplish anything good for her or the world. I've abandoned any hope of her surviving.

I think Dany has already suffered for her dragons. In order to hatch them she (inadvertently) sacrificed her husband and her child, the entirety of her family. Later in ADWD she will sacrafuce yet again (also inadvertently) another child when she miscarried in the Dothraki Sea in order to finalize her bond with Drogon. My suspicion is that in the end Dany willl have to choose between her family or her dragons, and I think she will chose to sacrafuce the dragons.

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^Definitely. Dany's suffering to birth the dragons is far too often overlooked or downplayed, and I didn't mean to do so. I was speaking only in the context of what will happen going forward if she uses magic (dragons) to help her or the world in a big way. Based on Martin's comments, I think he would punish her additionally for that. I'd love it if he thinks she's suffered enough already, but I highly doubt it, or that he'd be satisfied with her only having to sacrifice her dragons.

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"The whole point of the scene in A Game of Thrones where Daenerys hatches the dragons is that she makes the magic up as she goes along; she is someone who really might do anything. I wanted magic to be something barely under control and half instinctive--not the John W. Campbell version with magic as the science and technology of other sorts of world, that works by simple and understandable rules. Nor precise words and series of passes that you forget when you have done them and have to learn again."

Martin says right there that "Daenerys hatches the dragons," so we can safely say Dany hatched the dragons (not that this should even be in doubt, but it somehow is elsewhere on this forum). MMD mocks Dany, saying "By itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them." But Dany didn't need any magic words. Martin says he doesn't reduce magic to a series of passwords. To paraphrase his above quote, he had Dany making it up as she went along. She might've done anything. Her presence, her instinct, was a key component. From her dragon dreams, her gaining strength from the eggs and feeling a warmth in them that no one else did, he highly suggests she formed a bond with the dragons that aided their hatching, but there's no secret recipe to be reverse engineered.

Thanks for bringing this quote, I never believed in the theory that is popular on the forum that the pyre incident was caused by a "botched spell" by MMD or that she was the main focal point in the whole incident or that it was just a fluke. This SSM clears that up.

ETA: It also falls into line of what I suggested in the last reread thread that Dany "made it up"/"she was in control"

I believe Dany was in control of the whole pyre ritual in terms of the hatching and that it wasn't just spontaneous, lucky or a freak accident as a lot of people seem to suggest, as shown in the text below.

Quote

The moment Dany says "now" is when khal Drogo spirit appears meaning he is now entering the nightlands to act as a sacrifice and before his spirit goes it whips the pyre and the first egg hatches.

Quote

And for the second egg the moment Dany says "only life can pay for death" it hatches. This is also supported from the author's use of the word "and there came the second crack" meaning it was in connection to the previous event which was Dany saying "only death can pay for life". So long story short Dany's statement of "only life an pay for death" caused the second hatch. This also supports your point of MMD being the price paid for Rhaegal, cause she was the one that Dany told "only life can pay for death".

Also the statement "the smoke stirred and whirled around" also supports the point of her controlling the ritual as it should have been spontaneous movement of smoke but it is rather stirring around her like a tornado.

Quote

In the last hatching Dany steps into the firestorm and calls her children, and this causes the third hatch.

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That says it pretty well. There are uncertain and debatable points. We don't know much, for example, about the children of the forest, or about Marwyn. "The Mage" is an interesting character. It's appropriate to bring him in here. We start learning about him at approximately the point in time that we have reached in the story. I tend to think well of him, because he is one of the characters who shows analytical ability and a willingness to look at the world as it is. What is to be said about shadow binders and warlocks? Marwyn's approach, unlike that of his colleagues, is to actually study the matter--go to the east and find out as much as he can. This, of course, doesn't make him a good guy, just someone who should be listened to more carefully than many people seem to want to do. He may be overdoing things when he says that the maesters of the Citadel want to murder Aemon, but I think he is basically right about the grey sheep. They have closed their eyes. To me, their approach is something like this: "Thermonuclear weapons are terrible things. Radiation is very dangerous. Therefore, no one should study nuclear physics."

Magic seems, at best, a dangerous and uncertain tool. But in our world, radiation can be put to good uses. The difference between poison and medicine concerns things like purpose, need, and dosage. In ASoIaF, magic can be put to good use I think. It's a problematic matter though.

But a maester's power comes through their control of science, so don't think of this as fear of magic - think of it as destroying one power base to advance their own. Magic will always be an appealing short cut, regardless of any long-term problems. People (especially powerful lords and kings) want problems solved immediately rather than through long-term research, testing and application.

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^Definitely. Dany's suffering to birth the dragons is far too often overlooked or downplayed, and I didn't mean to do so. I was speaking only in the context of what will happen going forward if she uses magic (dragons) to help her or the world in a big way. Based on Martin's comments, I think he would punish her additionally for that. I'd love it if he thinks she's suffered enough already, but I highly doubt it, or that he'd be satisfied with her only having to sacrifice her dragons.

For her to sacrifice her dragons would be like sacrificing a part of herself, it's a pretty big sacrafice. I'm not sure that's what the quote means. I think GRRM meant that magic (any kind) will not be a deux ex machina to fight the WfD. Magic, the direwolves, the dragons are mrarely tools, they cannot solve the problems. Frankly, I don't see why Dany would have to pay again for using something she already paid for.

If Dany doesn't survive the series it will be out of choice, I think.

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If Dany doesn't survive the series it will be out of choice, I think.

So far, she's survived four assassination attempts, and risked her life on three occasions (walking into the pyre, entering the House of the Undying, gambling that the Unsullied will switch sides). Her luck must run out eventually, something I suspect she's well aware of.

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So far, she's survived four assassination attempts, and risked her life on three occasions (walking into the pyre, entering the House of the Undying, gambling that the Unsullied will switch sides). Her luck must run out eventually, something I suspect she's well aware of.

Well, lets be honest she's not the only one with very good luck, Tyrion comes to mind amongst others. GRRM seems to have a soft spot for his favorites, I'm not sure how much that will mean when he decides which of is favorites he's going to off in the end.

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