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Tormunds role in WoW?


Lord Robb

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The North and the Battle of Ice mirrors Slaver Bay and the Battle of Fire.

In both situations, our heroes (Jon and Dany) defeated an enemy and decided to rule over them.

In both situations, our heroes took child hostages of a to quell a threat and "married" a former adversary to make peace. Dany to Hizdahr to quell the Harpies, Jon to Tormund and Mance.

In both situations, our heroes were unwilling to kill hostages, giving them no leverage.

And in both situations, everything fell apart and our heroes were exiled.

Tormund is not a friend. He is like Hizdahr.

When did it become an established fact that Jon and Dany have utterly parallel story lines?! I know she's an extremely likable character and all, but Dany's leadership and and decision-making skills are less than stellar. She is compassionate and I believe she is trying really hard to do right by her people... But her rapidly deteriorating mental state has made her a pitiful ruler. She's losing it more and more in each of her successive chapters.

Jon, on the other hand, has shouldered the weight of his position with care and maturity. He is driven by duty and honor, and takes his responsibilities seriously. He's killing the boy so the man can be born.

Jon has a clearly defined purpose--protecting the realms of men. Dany is just languishing in Meereen when she should be headed West, and for what?

Comparing Jon to Dany is like comparing apples to screwdrivers.

As for Tormund, I adore him as a character, and I trust Jon's judgment.

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While no one ever said this was fact, "A Song of Ice and Fire" seems to be the story of Jon and Dany. Of course, Jon is living in the cold and Dany in the heat. Jon with the White Walkers and Dany with the dragons.



Obviously, both involve children of a similar age forced into leadership roles who had upbringings where they felt like outsiders. Nonetheless, the characters are good-hearted and attempt being just.



But, the parellels become oddly specific when ADwD comes along.



As I said before, we have Jon and Dany conquering a foreign foe and then attempting to rule over them.



We have child hostages being taken, but an unwillingness to kill them.



We have marriages with former foes.



We have murders happening when characters from afar arrive that sew mistrust



We have two enormous battles with overly complicated loyalties and side switching (dubbed by fans the Battle of Ice and the Battle of Fire).



We have protagonists caught behind enemy lines trying to make it back over to right side.



We have two horns.



We have an exile and apparent death of our leaders.



We have someone accidently letting dragons out...and probably someone accidently letting White Walkers in.




Not to say the stories are exact or will remain exact. Tormund is his own man and is very likable. He may split from Mance. But my crackpot theory is Tormund can secretly read and saw some code in the Pink Letter from Mance.



Whateverthecase, it seems there is chaos at the Wall is certain and the White Walkers are coming through one way or another.

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While no one ever said this was fact, "A Song of Ice and Fire" seems to be the story of Jon and Dany. Of course, Jon is living in the cold and Dany in the heat. Jon with the White Walkers and Dany with the dragons.

Obviously, both involve children of a similar age forced into leadership roles who had upbringings where they felt like outsiders. Nonetheless, the characters are good-hearted and attempt being just.

But, the parellels become oddly specific when ADwD comes along.

As I said before, we have Jon and Dany conquering a foreign foe and then attempting to rule over them.

We have child hostages being taken, but an unwillingness to kill them.

We have marriages with former foes.

We have murders happening when characters from afar arrive that sew mistrust

We have two enormous battles with overly complicated loyalties and side switching (dubbed by fans the Battle of Ice and the Battle of Fire).

We have protagonists caught behind enemy lines trying to make it back over to right side.

We have two horns.

We have an exile and apparent death of our leaders.

We have someone accidently letting dragons out...and probably someone accidently letting White Walkers in.

Not to say the stories are exact or will remain exact. Tormund is his own man and is very likable. He may split from Mance. But my crackpot theory is Tormund can secretly read and saw some code in the Pink Letter from Mance.

Whateverthecase, it seems there is chaos at the Wall is certain and the White Walkers are coming through one way or another.

There are some clear parallels, but other cases are pure supposition? How we know that Jon wouldn't kill a child hostage? I could understand marriages with former foes, but in this case Jon isn't marrying anyone. As far as Alys Karstark and the Magnar go, well tha's just par for the course Westerosi peace brokering. The Westerlings mayying into the Lannister family is an example of the same. Tormund may not be a friend, but I really doubt he's playing Jon like Hizdahr is playing Dany (if he is at all).

I agree that they're both aspects of the overarching Fire and Ice theme, but in terms of characterization they differ is some pretty large ways and so do their arcs.

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We have a strong attraction developing between Jon and Val and a marriage between them ( former foes) was proposed ( only Stannis' conditions got in the way of it )...and it may not be out of the question in future...



Tormund will remain loyal to Jon . They always liked each other , as Mance observed , and I think both Val and Tormund recognize their new leader in Jon. Val is a "wisewoman" as Dalla was before her . Tormund knows what Val is and obviously trusts her word .. he also knows that he is not to be the great leader of the free folk , himself ... and is helping Jon along that path .



Jon will survive ( and recuperate rather quickly , IMO ). As a defender and strong supporter of Jon , Tormund will win the trust of those NW not supporting Bowen & co. ( which I think will be a majority) .. who will therefore trust him as leader on the Hardhome mission , which I think must go ahead.



Jon will defend CB against Ramsay...



Mance will see that his tenure as King-beyond-the-wall has passed, and he will be an ally but subordinate to Jon.



Just a few little predictions. ;)



ETA : I don't know if I buy the Dragons out / White walkers in pairing... But Jon has 2 potential wights in the ice cells and someone might let them out ( also foolishly , but not so accidentally) as part of the move against Jon.


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I agree that they're both aspects of the overarching Fire and Ice theme, but in terms of characterization they differ is some pretty large ways and so do their arcs.

Exactly. If my previous post was too harsh, it's only because I'm not a big fan of Dany, at least not in the books. The HBO Dany is much less irritating, IMO.

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Always been my thought that Tormund will attack Marsh & Co, the Black Brothers loyal to Jon will join in, and Tormund will fight Jon's fight against Ramsey. Jon in the meantime is warged into Ghost/body healed by Mel's kiss of fire/brought back to life and then rejoins the fight.

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I do not see how Tormund could fool Jon the w ay Hizdahr fooled Dany. Tormund has lived amongst the free folks his whole life and it feels out of character for him to fool someone.

Hizdahr never fooled Dany. Dany wanted peace in exchange for a share of power. As far as we can see Hizdahr gave that to her and Dany held up her end of the bargain by following through with the marriage.

Now it turns out that Dany is not exactly happy with the peace, and of course Drogon shows up and causes chaos, and she leaves on his back anyways. But Barristan is wrong. There is no evidence that Hizdahr broke the peace as the peace was in his best interests after the marriage. It is much more likely that the Shavepate poisoned the locusts to try to break the peace so that he could get his position of power back.

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Hizdahr never fooled Dany. Dany wanted peace in exchange for a share of power. As far as we can see Hizdahr gave that to her and Dany held up her end of the bargain by following through with the marriage.

Now it turns out that Dany is not exactly happy with the peace, and of course Drogon shows up and causes chaos, and she leaves on his back anyways. But Barristan is wrong. There is no evidence that Hizdahr broke the peace as the peace was in his best interests after the marriage. It is much more likely that the Shavepate poisoned the locusts to try to break the peace so that he could get his position of power back.

And that is one more huge parallel with the Ice and Fire fronts:

The Mystery of the Locusts parallels the Mystery of the Pink Letter

On both fronts, right before an enormous battle, a mysterious item of unknown "authorship" arrives. And immediately afterwards, our heroes are exiled, leaving behind an environment of mistrust when our heroes are needed most.

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Thread title should be what role will Tormund's Member play in TWoW lol.

In all seriousness Tormund does not play people false, it's not in his nature. His friendship and respect for Jon and vise versa are genuine.

All hell is going to break loose after the assassination attempt with Tormund leading the way. It just reinforces that Jon has more in common with the First Men than most of his sworn brothers.

I hope his friends from the watch step up and side against Bowen and Co.

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Hizdahr never fooled Dany. Dany wanted peace in exchange for a share of power. As far as we can see Hizdahr gave that to her and Dany held up her end of the bargain by following through with the marriage.



Now it turns out that Dany is not exactly happy with the peace, and of course Drogon shows up and causes chaos, and she leaves on his back anyways. But Barristan is wrong. There is no evidence that Hizdahr broke the peace as the peace was in his best interests after the marriage. It is much more likely that the Shavepate poisoned the locusts to try to break the peace so that he could get his position of power back.




ya, because the whole poisoned locusts that he KEPT INSISTING Dany eat (not expecting the fighting pits would not inspire her appetite) ...then both Belwas and then Drogon ended up saving Dany...I would kinda say him trying to poison Dany and then ruling with her out of the way kinda.



How does the Shavepate benefit under Dany no longer being Queen? Why would Hizdahr give two shits about the Shavepate? Its been a little bit...but was it the Shavepate insisting Dany eat up or Hizdar?




As far as Tormund...I think he is his own man. I can see a possible angle where Mance colludes with Tormund, but to what end? Jon gave Mance his blessing more or less to leave to Winterfell to help him...why would Tormund and Mance need to trick Jon and the NW into some secret trap to allow more Wildlings through when Jon is already allowing them through?



I think Tormund will end up protecting Jon's body and leading the Wildlings against those NW that shanked Jon...if Jon dies I think he will 'avenge' him....or (if Jon does get brought back) I think Tormund will cause enough chaos between the NW and the Wildlings that Mel will be able to revive Jon.



Either way, I do not think he is in collusion with Mance against Jon simply because they are already getting what they wanted, to be below the Wall...which is what they wanted the whole time.



I think if anyone allows the White Walkers through the Wall, it will be the actions of the NW who rejected the reforms Jon was trying to set into place.



Jon's dream about the dead men climbing the Wall....it seems to make more sense to have as many Wildlings below the Wall fighting the Others...so they can not be used to increase the army of the undead wights. Jon was trying to build his (depleted) numbers to fight the Others.


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Warning: apc_store(): Unable to allocate memory for pool. in /home/sites/westeros.org/forum_web/ips_kernel/classCacheApc.php on line 72





Hizdahr never fooled Dany. Dany wanted peace in exchange for a share of power. As far as we can see Hizdahr gave that to her and Dany held up her end of the bargain by following through with the marriage.



Now it turns out that Dany is not exactly happy with the peace, and of course Drogon shows up and causes chaos, and she leaves on his back anyways. But Barristan is wrong. There is no evidence that Hizdahr broke the peace as the peace was in his best interests after the marriage. It is much more likely that the Shavepate poisoned the locusts to try to break the peace so that he could get his position of power back.




ya, because the whole poisoned locusts that he KEPT INSISTING Dany eat (not expecting the fighting pits would not inspire her appetite) ...then both Belwas and then Drogon ended up saving Dany...I would kinda say him trying to poison Dany and then ruling with her out of the way kinda.



How does the Shavepate benefit under Dany no longer being Queen? Why would Hizdahr give two shits about the Shavepate? Its been a little bit...but was it the Shavepate insisting Dany eat up or Hizdar?




As far as Tormund...I think he is his own man. I can see a possible angle where Mance colludes with Tormund, but to what end? Jon gave Mance his blessing more or less to leave to Winterfell to help him...why would Tormund and Mance need to trick Jon and the NW into some secret trap to allow more Wildlings through when Jon is already allowing them through?



I think Tormund will end up protecting Jon's body and leading the Wildlings against those NW that shanked Jon...if Jon dies I think he will 'avenge' him....or (if Jon does get brought back) I think Tormund will cause enough chaos between the NW and the Wildlings that Mel will be able to revive Jon.



Either way, I do not think he is in collusion with Mance against Jon simply because they are already getting what they wanted, to be below the Wall...which is what they wanted the whole time.



I think if anyone allows the White Walkers through the Wall, it will be the actions of the NW who rejected the reforms Jon was trying to set into place.



Jon's dream about the dead men climbing the Wall....it seems to make more sense to have as many Wildlings below the Wall fighting the Others...so they can not be used to increase the army of the undead wights. Jon was trying to build his (depleted) numbers to fight the Others.


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And that is one more huge parallel with the Ice and Fire fronts:

The Mystery of the Locusts parallels the Mystery of the Pink Letter

On both fronts, right before an enormous battle, a mysterious item of unknown "authorship" arrives. And immediately afterwards, our heroes are exiled, leaving behind an environment of mistrust when our heroes are needed most.

IMO, saying that the locusts in some way parallel the pink letter is really reaching.

By this reasoning, I could argue that Jon Snow actually parallels Harry Potter. They are both of mysterious parentage, they've both never met their mothers, and they both leave their childhood home at a young age to begin a new life.

Jon is clearly the chosen one. Someone teach that kid "Expelliarmus!"

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