Jump to content

Tormunds role in WoW?


Lord Robb

Recommended Posts

Warning: apc_store(): Unable to allocate memory for pool. in /home/sites/westeros.org/forum_web/ips_kernel/classCacheApc.php on line 72





Warning: apc_store(): Unable to allocate memory for pool. in /home/sites/westeros.org/forum_web/ips_kernel/classCacheApc.php on line 72



ya, because the whole poisoned locusts that he KEPT INSISTING Dany eat (not expecting the fighting pits would not inspire her appetite) ...then both Belwas and then Drogon ended up saving Dany...I would kinda say him trying to poison Dany and then ruling with her out of the way kinda.



How does the Shavepate benefit under Dany no longer being Queen? Why would Hizdahr give two shits about the Shavepate? Its been a little bit...but was it the Shavepate insisting Dany eat up or Hizdar?




As far as Tormund...I think he is his own man. I can see a possible angle where Mance colludes with Tormund, but to what end? Jon gave Mance his blessing more or less to leave to Winterfell to help him...why would Tormund and Mance need to trick Jon and the NW into some secret trap to allow more Wildlings through when Jon is already allowing them through?



I think Tormund will end up protecting Jon's body and leading the Wildlings against those NW that shanked Jon...if Jon dies I think he will 'avenge' him....or (if Jon does get brought back) I think Tormund will cause enough chaos between the NW and the Wildlings that Mel will be able to revive Jon.



Either way, I do not think he is in collusion with Mance against Jon simply because they are already getting what they wanted, to be below the Wall...which is what they wanted the whole time.



I think if anyone allows the White Walkers through the Wall, it will be the actions of the NW who rejected the reforms Jon was trying to set into place.



Jon's dream about the dead men climbing the Wall....it seems to make more sense to have as many Wildlings below the Wall fighting the Others...so they can not be used to increase the army of the undead wights. Jon was trying to build his (depleted) numbers to fight the Others.





I think the jury is still out on the Locusts. Shaveplate was removed from his position by Hizdahr. That makes him a suspect. Also, one of the Dornish may have wanted to remove Dany from the picture for Aegon.



As for Mance, he is not on Team Jon or Team Mel. Mance said he would never bow to the laws of the Seven Kingdom. He rebelled against them for a cloak, if you remember. And Mel told Mance that only Wildlings who accept the Red God will be let through. Mance is only currently doing Jon's bidding because Jon has his "son" and because he is controlled by the ruby. He is a slave.



Once Mance gets that ruby off and finds out his son is in Oldtown....revenge. Which, in my opinion, already happened and thus the Pink Letter.



Tormund is a wildcard. Follow his old king or help Jon? We shall see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Warning: apc_store(): Unable to allocate memory for pool. in /home/sites/westeros.org/forum_web/ips_kernel/classCacheApc.php on line 72

I think the jury is still out on the Locusts. Shaveplate was removed from his position by Hizdahr. That makes him a suspect. Also, one of the Dornish may have wanted to remove Dany from the picture for Aegon.

As for Mance, he is not on Team Jon or Team Mel. Mance said he would never bow to the laws of the Seven Kingdom. He rebelled against them for a cloak, if you remember. And Mel told Mance that only Wildlings who accept the Red God will be let through. Mance is only currently doing Jon's bidding because Jon has his "son" and because he is controlled by the ruby. He is a slave.

Once Mance gets that ruby off and finds out his son is in Oldtown....revenge. Which, in my opinion, already happened and thus the Pink Letter.

Tormund is a wildcard. Follow his old king or help Jon? We shall see.

Plus, if you are going to poison somebody would you suggest in a public forum that the victim eat the items that you poisoned? (whisper very quietly in their ear... maybe, but not announce it to everyone in the area.) Also, he would not just be able to start ruling without Dany. The Unsullied would be out for justice as would all the former slaves. Openly poisoning Queen Dany in public would lead to sure civil war in the city. That would not be a good thing for Hizdahr. And Hizdahr only suggested she try them once.... not "KEPT INSISTING".

Not to mention, there is no reason for the poisoner to know if Dany would even like Locusts. It seems that Hizdahr likes them and may have been the target if this is well known. Obviously, Strong Belwas started gorging himself before anyone else could try them.

The Shavepate would benefit with a falling out between Dany and Hizdahr because he just lost his position of power and he and Hizdahr are longtime rivals. He needs to either remove Hizdahr or sow discord between him and Dany if he is going to regain a position of power. If the Shavepate poisoned the locusts, Dany was likely not the target.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Shavepate would benefit with a falling out between Dany and Hizdahr because he just lost his position of power and he and Hizdahr are longtime rivals. He needs to either remove Hizdahr or sow discord between him and Dany if he is going to regain a position of power. If the Shavepate poisoned the locusts, Dany was likely not the target.

And that's really another beautiful parallell between the Mystery of the Honeyed Locusts and the Mystery of the Pink Letter.

We are unsure of the author and we are unsure of the recipient. Are the Honeyed Locusts for Dany or Hizdahr? Or both? Is the Pink Letter for Jon or Tormund? Or both?

Yes, the letter seems to be for Jon, but let's reread Tormund's reaction:

"Snow?" said Tormund Giantsbane. "You look like your father's bloody head just rolled out o' that paper."

Jon Snow did not answer at once. "Mully, help Clydas back to his chambers. The night is dark, and the paths will be slippery with snow. Satin, go with them." He handed Tormund Giantsbane the letter. "Here, see for yourself."

The wildling gave the letter a dubious look and handed it right back.

"Feels nasty ... but Tormund Thunderfist had better things to do than learn to make papers talk at him. They never have any good to say, now do they?"

"Not often," Jon Snow admitted. Dark wings, dark words. Perhaps there was more truth to those wise old sayings than he'd known. "It was sent by Ramsay Snow. I'll read you what he wrote."

When he was done, Tormund whistled. "Har. That's buggered, and no mistake. What was that about Mance? Has him in a cage, does he? How, when hundreds saw your red witch burn the man?"

That was Rattleshirt, Jon almost said. That was sorcery. A glamor, she called it. "Melisandre ... look to the skies, she said." He set the letter down. "A raven in a storm. She saw this coming." When you have your answers, send to me.

"Might be all a skin o' lies." Tormund scratched under his beard. "If I had me a nice goose quill and a pot o' maester's ink, I could write down that me member was long and thick as me arm, wouldn't make it so."

Torumund at first seems friendly, innocent and supportive. But, wait a minute.....

Why would Tormund even look at the letter? He supposedly can't read.

Then, Tormund makes a point to tell Jon he can't read.

Then, he says if he had a pen and ink, he could write lies about his dick size. Except, he just said he couldn't read!!! Like two second ago! Maybe he meant draw? Like drawing big dicks? How would anyone know the drawing was his dick?

Now, reread the section with a suspicious eye on Tormund. Tormund's point about not reading now jumps out and his inquiry about Mance protests too much. And wait a second. Did he say "your red witch." Since, when is it Jon's red witch!?!? Is that what Tormund thinks of Jon? That Jon was okay with the burning of Mance/Rattleshirt and the forced submission of the WIldlings to the Red God?

And if Mance wrote the Pink Letter, Jon just handed possible communication to Tormund from Mance. Mance and Tormund are two military commanders who likely have a code with each other. Jon just screwed himself. But Jon didn't think about it since the letter said it was from Ramsay to Jon and Tormund supposedly can't read.

Now, reread the section assuming Tormund is playing Jon. "Might be all a skin o' lies" almost becomes a sinister mock.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And that's really another beautiful parallell between the Mystery of the Honeyed Locusts and the Mystery of the Pink Letter.

We are unsure of the author and we are unsure of the recipient. Are the Honeyed Locusts for Dany or Hizdahr? Or both? Is the Pink Letter for Jon or Tormund? Or both?

Yes, the letter seems to be for Jon, but let's reread Tormund's reaction:

"Snow?" said Tormund Giantsbane. "You look like your father's bloody head just rolled out o' that paper."

Jon Snow did not answer at once. "Mully, help Clydas back to his chambers. The night is dark, and the paths will be slippery with snow. Satin, go with them." He handed Tormund Giantsbane the letter. "Here, see for yourself."

The wildling gave the letter a dubious look and handed it right back.

"Feels nasty ... but Tormund Thunderfist had better things to do than learn to make papers talk at him. They never have any good to say, now do they?"

"Not often," Jon Snow admitted. Dark wings, dark words. Perhaps there was more truth to those wise old sayings than he'd known. "It was sent by Ramsay Snow. I'll read you what he wrote."

When he was done, Tormund whistled. "Har. That's buggered, and no mistake. What was that about Mance? Has him in a cage, does he? How, when hundreds saw your red witch burn the man?"

That was Rattleshirt, Jon almost said. That was sorcery. A glamor, she called it. "Melisandre ... look to the skies, she said." He set the letter down. "A raven in a storm. She saw this coming." When you have your answers, send to me.

"Might be all a skin o' lies." Tormund scratched under his beard. "If I had me a nice goose quill and a pot o' maester's ink, I could write down that me member was long and thick as me arm, wouldn't make it so."

Torumund at first seems friendly, innocent and supportive. But, wait a minute.....

Why would Tormund even look at the letter? He supposedly can't read.

Then, Tormund makes a point to tell Jon he can't read.

Then, he says if he had a pen and ink, he could write lies about his dick size. Except, he just said he couldn't read!!! Like two second ago! Maybe he meant draw? Like drawing big dicks? How would anyone know the drawing was his dick?

Now, reread the section with a suspicious eye on Tormund. Tormund's point about not reading now jumps out and his inquiry about Mance protests too much. And wait a second. Did he say "your red witch." Since, when is it Jon's red witch!?!? Is that what Tormund thinks of Jon? That Jon was okay with the burning of Mance/Rattleshirt and the forced submission of the WIldlings to the Red God?

And if Mance wrote the Pink Letter, Jon just handed possible communication to Tormund from Mance. Mance and Tormund are two military commanders who likely have a code with each other. Jon just screwed himself. But Jon didn't think about it since the letter said it was from Ramsay to Jon and Tormund supposedly can't read.

Now, reread the section assuming Tormund is playing Jon. "Might be all a skin o' lies" almost becomes a sinister mock.

Everything about his member is a joke. Tormund always goes on about his member. I would not use that as proof. Second as someone above stated, Tormund and Mance got what they wanted: get to the other side of the wall.

About Jons red witch, do you really think that Tormund cares about Stannis or Mel? Or who Mel serves. I do not. So Tormund most likely is pissed because he thought Mance was dead and he blamed it, at least partly on Jon. So he just says that to piss Jon a bit.

Then, how did Mance even know that Tormund was at Castle Black? He left before Tormund arrived if I remember correctly.

And it is not in-character for Tormund to play anyone. He has been a honest man since we first saw him and I doubt he has chabged now when he got what he wanted. And he likes Jon. Even Mance said so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Everything about his member is a joke. Tormund always goes on about his member. I would not use that as proof. Second as someone above stated, Tormund and Mance got what they wanted: get to the other side of the wall.

About Jons red witch, do you really think that Tormund cares about Stannis or Mel? Or who Mel serves. I do not. So Tormund most likely is pissed because he thought Mance was dead and he blamed it, at least partly on Jon. So he just says that to piss Jon a bit.

Then, how did Mance even know that Tormund was at Castle Black? He left before Tormund arrived if I remember correctly.

And it is not in-character for Tormund to play anyone. He has been a honest man since we first saw him and I doubt he has chabged now when he got what he wanted. And he likes Jon. Even Mance said so.

There are still plenty of Wildlings north of the Wall including the Weeper and those at Hardhome, but the Wildling motives go deeper than just crossing the Wall. They do not want to bend a knee to the North. Plus, I'm sure they want to get further south away from the White Walkers. Not to mention, they are starving and want their possessions back.

And I think you and I agree that Tormund should be pissed at Jon.

As for how did Mance know Tormund was at Castle Black? Because Mance had access to Val and Val volunteered to go get Tormund. Val, by the way, also knows that the babe is Craster's son. So, I'm assuming Mance does too.

Why would Tormund all of a sudden want to yield to Jon when he didn't before? What changed? What did Val tell him? That Mance was alive? That they had a plan?

And yes, Tormund has always been an honest man. His personality is truly the only thing that causes me to doubt my theory a little. But...people are sneaky in the series.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tormund's Members unite! (That is, people who love Tormund. And his Member.)

I am expecting Tormund to rally the wildlings and either get the heck out of dodge or just slaughter pretty much everyone there.
I don't think he was pulling anything funny with Jon. The two genuinely like each other. No, I am not shipping Jonmund. The two are very bro-ish from the beginning.
Further, if Mance is (via the pink letter) sending a message to anyone, why would it be Tormund? He wasn't at Castle Black when Mance left and there is nothing prior to this interaction to prove that Tormund can read.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Further, if Mance is (via the pink letter) sending a message to anyone, why would it be Tormund? He wasn't at Castle Black when Mance left and there is nothing prior to this interaction to prove that Tormund can read.

Why Tormund? Tormund is now the de-facto leader of the Wildlings. So, if anyone can mobilize Mance's forces, its Tormund. The Pink Letter could include an order for Tormund.

Tormund wasn't at Castle Black? That's where Val comes in. Mance and Val were at the Wall at the same time. Mance could have told Val to bring Tormund in. In fact, it kind of explains Tormund's change of heart about surrendering.

Tormund and reading? Yeah, the evidence is meager, but he does have that slip up where he claims he can write immediately after saying he can't read.

Really, its about the spread of information and conspiracy from Mance to Val to Tormund:

It's pretty much 100% certain that Mance has gone renegade. He was bound by two things: the ruby and his son as a hostage. He is seen without his ruby at Winterfell and Val knew about his son. She almost certainly told him. Mance is unchained.

Also, we see that nothing about Mance's Winterfell adventure makes sense. He arrives at Winterfell even though that's not where he thought the wedding would be. He asks around about the crypts. He starts murdering people. He sends Theon off with a bride he knows is fake and stands Theon up. And he lies and sends Theon and "Arya" to people outside the wall he knows aren't Stannis.

So, if Mance is 100% up to something, wouldn't he try to bring Val in? Of course he would. Val was only loyal to keep Mance alive. Once Mance is loose, she is unbound as well.

So, if its probably that Val is brought in and Val knows Mance is alive, why wouldn't she bring in Tormund when she goes to find him? Or at least tell Tormund Mance is alive?

Even if we keep this real simple, Tormund is a liar. Val certainly knows Mance is alive. Val then visits Tormund and spends days with him. Why wouldn't she tell Tormund that Mance is alive? Of course she would. Then, Tormund claims to Jon he thinks Mance burned.

Oh, Tormund, you seemed so nice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are still plenty of Wildlings north of the Wall including the Weeper and those at Hardhome, but the Wildling motives go deeper than just crossing the Wall. They do not want to bend a knee to the North. Plus, I'm sure they want to get further south away from the White Walkers. Not to mention, they are starving and want their possessions back.

And I think you and I agree that Tormund should be pissed at Jon.

As for how did Mance know Tormund was at Castle Black? Because Mance had access to Val and Val volunteered to go get Tormund. Val, by the way, also knows that the babe is Craster's son. So, I'm assuming Mance does too.

Why would Tormund all of a sudden want to yield to Jon when he didn't before? What changed? What did Val tell him? That Mance was alive? That they had a plan?

And yes, Tormund has always been an honest man. His personality is truly the only thing that causes me to doubt my theory a little. But...people are sneaky in the series.

Jon planned to let the other wildlings in. So Tormund can not complain there. And both Tormund and Mance has met the Others before, they know that they needs to be stopped. So why would they run south? The gold may piss them a little but that is all.

How did Val keep contact with Mance? She was locked in a tower.

It is pretty simple. Tormund knows that the Others need to be stopped. They killed his son! He wants to stop them and he trusts and likes Jon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jon planned to let the other wildlings in. So Tormund can not complain there. And both Tormund and Mance has met the Others before, they know that they needs to be stopped. So why would they run south? The gold may piss them a little but that is all.

How did Val keep contact with Mance? She was locked in a tower.

It is pretty simple. Tormund knows that the Others need to be stopped. They killed his son! He wants to stop them and he trusts and likes Jon.

The Wildlings have repeatedly said they will not bend the knee, ever. Never, ever, ever. Now maybe they're just talking a big talk, but history seems to support this claim. 8000 years and no tribes have ever bent. I understand it doesn't seem rational. I certainly would bent the knee in their place, but they're Wildlings.

How did Mance talk to Val? This Mance quote pretty much answers that question:

"I could visit you as easily, my lord. Those guards at your door are a bad jape. A man who has climbed the Wall half a hundred times can climb in a window easy enough. But what good would come of killing you? The crows would only choose someone worse." (Melisandra, ADwD)

Tormund already had a chance to stay and fight the Others. He chose to attack the Wall instead. In fact, every person that has ever seen a White Walker has wanted to head south. Why would Tormund have a change of heart now? Because Jon is nice? In Tormund's eyes Jon is on the same team as Mel. And Mel made them burn their gods. Jon took their possessions and they children. Stannis will make them bend the knee.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tormund knows what writing is, he just cannot write himself.

Perhaps, but that's not what he said. Maybe it was a joke. Maybe he misspoke, But, he said he could write. And considering he's lying about thinking Mance is dead and has motive to hurt Jon and the Night's Watch, I am very, very suspicious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps, but that's not what he said. Maybe it was a joke. Maybe he misspoke, But, he said he could write. And considering he's lying about thinking Mance is dead and has motive to hurt Jon and the Night's Watch, I am very, very suspicious.

He is not lying about thinking Mance is dead. There has been no indication that he knows Mance is alive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He is not lying about thinking Mance is dead. There has been no indication that he knows Mance is alive.

There are indications:

1) Val knew Mance was alive and spent time with Tormund

2) Tormund changes his mind about bending the knee

3) Tormund awkwardly asks about Mance after hearing the Pink Letter and then, weirdly, doesn't bring it up again.

But, it's mostly #1. There is no reason Val wouldn't share this information with Tormund. She volunteered to find Tormund and convinced him to bend the knee.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are indications:

1) Val knew Mance was alive and spent time with Tormund

2) Tormund changes his mind about bending the knee

3) Tormund awkwardly asks about Mance after hearing the Pink Letter and then, weirdly, doesn't bring it up again.

But, it's mostly #1. There is no reason Val wouldn't share this information with Tormund. She volunteered to find Tormund and convinced him to bend the knee.

I guess if you're right we'll all eat crow, but the evidence to support this is extremely weak. Perhaps your perception is just that much sharper than mine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are indications:

1) Val knew Mance was alive and spent time with Tormund

2) Tormund changes his mind about bending the knee

3) Tormund awkwardly asks about Mance after hearing the Pink Letter and then, weirdly, doesn't bring it up again.

But, it's mostly #1. There is no reason Val wouldn't share this information with Tormund. She volunteered to find Tormund and convinced him to bend the knee.

Tormund is a know loud mouth and braggart, the last person you want to share secrets with.

I am not saying it is not possible, however if it were to become common knowledge among the wildlings it would become common knowledge among all and that is a bad thing.

Val acting the way she is, is due to, IMHO, that she believes Jon has "stolen her" and in her mind she belongs to Jon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tormund is a know loud mouth and braggart, the last person you want to share secrets with.

I am not saying it is not possible, however if it were to become common knowledge among the wildlings it would become common knowledge among all and that is a bad thing.

Val acting the way she is, is due to, IMHO, that she believes Jon has "stolen her" and in her mind she belongs to Jon.

Okay, that's a very good point. Val could consider Jon her new defacto husband and irrationally side with him much like Ygritte did. I will grant you Val might be keeping Mance a secret for Jon.

I'm just so suspicious of Tormund as he is clearly pretending to be dumber than he is.

For example, when the Pink Letter arrives, he says:

"Dark wings, dark words." muttered Tormund "Isn't that you kneelers say?" (Jon XIII)

Then later:

"If I had me a nice goose quill and a pot o' maester's ink, I could write down...." (Jon XIII)

Ignoring the literacy issue for a second, Tormund knows:

1) Messages in the Seven Kingdoms are sent by ravens

2) What goose quills and ink pots are

3) The difference between a good quality quill and a bad quality quill

4) What maesters are.

5) That raven messages are often crafted by maesters

6) That the news is often bad, thus the saying "dark wings, dark words."

Let's keep in mind, ravenry is a maester science from Oldtown, so the Wildlings wouldn't use it. Not to mention, Tormund claims illiteracy so he personally would have never used it. Yet, for some reason he knows about the practice...and the difference between a good quill and a bad quill.

Now, yes, maybe Tormund heard stories about these things, but from whom? Do Wildlings sit around talking about such things? Gilly had no idea what books were or maesters. Now, Tormund may have different experiences, but who would he hear about ravenry and quills from? A stolen bride from the North? She would also have to have a good education to know about those things. It would have to be a stolen high born bride. Granted Dalla and Val seem weirdly high born.

And most perperplexing, if Tormund thought it useful enough to become educated on the practice of ravenry (maesters, ravens, quill quality, pots of ink, "dark winds, dark words"), then why would he say:

"Tormund Thunderfist had better things to do than learn to make papers talk at him." (Jon XIII)

He just proved he does value the information, but then, a minute later, claims he does not value the information.

And he goes from a man who clearly knows at minimum how the practice of writing works (quills, ink, paper) to a man who claims writing is essentially magic ("paper talk at him".)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, that's a very good point. Val could consider Jon her new defacto husband and irrationally side with him much like Ygritte did. I will grant you Val might be keeping Mance a secret for Jon.

I'm just so suspicious of Tormund as he is clearly pretending to be dumber than he is.

For example, when the Pink Letter arrives, he says:

"Dark wings, dark words." muttered Tormund "Isn't that you kneelers say?" (Jon XIII)

Then later:

"If I had me a nice goose quill and a pot o' maester's ink, I could write down...." (Jon XIII)

Ignoring the literacy issue for a second, Tormund knows:

1) Messages in the Seven Kingdoms are sent by ravens

2) What goose quills and ink pots are

3) The difference between a good quality quill and a bad quality quill

4) What maesters are.

5) That raven messages are often crafted by maesters

6) That the news is often bad, thus the saying "dark wings, dark words."

Let's keep in mind, ravenry is a maester science from Oldtown, so the Wildlings wouldn't use it. Not to mention, Tormund claims illiteracy so he personally would have never used it. Yet, for some reason he knows about the practice...and the difference between a good quill and a bad quill.

Now, yes, maybe Tormund heard stories about these things, but from whom? Do Wildlings sit around talking about such things? Gilly had no idea what books were or maesters. Now, Tormund may have different experiences, but who would he hear about ravenry and quills from? A stolen bride from the North? She would also have to have a good education to know about those things. It would have to be a stolen high born bride. Granted Dalla and Val seem weirdly high born.

And most perperplexing, if Tormund thought it useful enough to become educated on the practice of ravenry (maesters, ravens, quill quality, pots of ink, "dark winds, dark words"), then why would he say:

"Tormund Thunderfist had better things to do than learn to make papers talk at him." (Jon XIII)

He just proved he does value the information, but then, a minute later, claims he does not value the information.

And he goes from a man who clearly knows at minimum how the practice of writing works (quills, ink, paper) to a man who claims writing is essentially magic ("paper talk at him".)

Tormund was a good friend of Mance's so he may have just learned that much of Westerosi culture from listening to Mance. I am sure coversations about what it is like on the other side of the wall comes up. It is also quite possible he has been on raids on the other side of the wall.

I get your theory on the code in the letter from Mance to Tormund, the problem for me is the snow. How could Mance get to queens guard in 7 days in that snow?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ravenry was started by the CotF and they were much better at using ravens then any maester, the wildlings would likely know about the practice. Also its a stretch to think he knows any difference between good quills and a bad quills if you're basing that off of Tormund saying, "a nice goose quill." I support crackpottery but can't get behind this one, every interaction between Tormund and Jon has felt very genuine. Not to mention, it assumes that Mance was the author of the Pink Letter, which is a toss up topic as is.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...