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Tormunds role in WoW?


Lord Robb

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Not sure why people think Mance/Tormund are plotting something evil.Jon already let them through the wall....he is letting every single person through the wall even the Weeper so long as they cease hostilities against the watch.Also none of the freefolk care about Mel or her red god if you remember the second they got past the wall they had carved faces into the trees.Considering Jon doesn't care what god/gods you worship hes not about to enforce anything mel said.Not to mention its pretty clear the only ally the freefolk have in westeros is Jon Snow.He dies and they are screwed.


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I know this is a little crackpot, but

1) I think Tormund can read.

"If I had me a nice goose quill and a pot o’ maester’s ink, I could write down that me member was long and thick as me arm, wouldn’t make it so."

2) I think the Pink Letter was written by Mance.

There's just too much obsession with the wildling submission ceremony for it to be anyone else.

3) I think there is code in the Pink Letter.

Things like "in seven days" and "false king's queen" have no place in it no matter who the author is. No one battles for seven days. No one cares about the false king's queen (even Stannis).

4) Mance still wants to help save the Wildlings north of the Wall.

5) I think Mance is telling Tormund to meet him at Queensgate in seven days. Queensgate is manned by wildlings. They will try to get the remaining Wildlings through.

6) I think Mance found the Horn of Jorumun

Mance was obsessed with the horn before and was interested in the Winterfell crypts where an old king may have it.

A horn at the Ice front would match the horn at the Fire front.

7) Tormund is the Hornblower.

8) I think Mance and Tormund will attempt to get the remaining wildlings past the Wall with the Horn

9) I think just as Quentyn accidentally let the dragons out. Mance and Tormund will accidentally let the Others in.

I think the part about mance looking for the horn in the winterfell crypts could be likely...something is down in those crypts...mance said that he was at winterfell when king robert was there. what if he was there to try and look for the horn in the crypts but was unable to due to the large number of people at the time. coming back to winterfell and looking for the horn while there is a massive snowstorm and the crypts would be most likely empty

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The Wildlings have repeatedly said they will not bend the knee, ever. Never, ever, ever. Now maybe they're just talking a big talk, but history seems to support this claim. 8000 years and no tribes have ever bent. I understand it doesn't seem rational. I certainly would bent the knee in their place, but they're Wildlings.

How did Mance talk to Val? This Mance quote pretty much answers that question:

"I could visit you as easily, my lord. Those guards at your door are a bad jape. A man who has climbed the Wall half a hundred times can climb in a window easy enough. But what good would come of killing you? The crows would only choose someone worse." (Melisandra, ADwD)

Tormund already had a chance to stay and fight the Others. He chose to attack the Wall instead. In fact, every person that has ever seen a White Walker has wanted to head south. Why would Tormund have a change of heart now? Because Jon is nice? In Tormund's eyes Jon is on the same team as Mel. And Mel made them burn their gods. Jon took their possessions and they children. Stannis will make them bend the knee.

The wildlings were disordered, many had died, they were running from the Wall and the Others took them. I think they becane desperate enough to bend the knee. Tormunds own son died. Much changed for the wildlings very fast. That probably explain why they bend the knee.

Ok, that is likely.

It is much easier to fight Others while you stand on the wall than fighting down in the woods. And of course some of the wildlings want to flee but Tormund knows that the Others needs to be defeated, he will help Jon.

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Not sure why people think Mance/Tormund are plotting something evil.Jon already let them through the wall....he is letting every single person through the wall even the Weeper so long as they cease hostilities against the watch.Also none of the freefolk care about Mel or her red god if you remember the second they got past the wall they had carved faces into the trees.Considering Jon doesn't care what god/gods you worship hes not about to enforce anything mel said.Not to mention its pretty clear the only ally the freefolk have in westeros is Jon Snow.He dies and they are screwed.

Well, Mance and Tormund are two different stories really.

Tormund is a much more reasonable and nicer character. And although I've put forward some evidence that Tormund may be up to something, its much weaker than the Mance evidence, which is by all measures overwhelming. In fact, I would say the main thing that implicates Tormund is his past association with Mance.

Mance, on the other hand, has always been more crazy, rigid and cruel. The big evidence that he is up to something is his trip to Winterfell and the Pink Letter. Mance is sent off to rescue "Arya" at Long Lake, but for some reason does something completely and utterly different. He requests six spearwives (specifically attractive ones) and then goes to Winterfell. Why? The wedding was only moved there by chance. How did Mance find out? Or was he already going to Winterfell? Why did he need hot spearwives? He then spends his time there asking around about the Crypts of Winterfell and murders a bunch of people. Why? Then, he teams up with Theon to steal a bride he knows is fake (Mance has met Arya before). Then, he lies to Theon and tells him Stannis is outside (Mance knows Stannis uses trumpets and not horns). Then, he stands Theon and Jeyne up completely. And finally, the Pink Letter arrives filled with Wildling language, heavy allusions to the Wildling Submission Ceremony and knowledge only Mance would know.

Now, people have lots of crazy explanations for this and that, but one thing is clear:

Mance is up to something.

So, where does that leave Tormund?

That's tougher. We know Mance has talked to Val and Mance wanted to talk to Tormund. And we know Val has talked to Tormund. But Tormund's involvement in Mance's scheme depends on:

1) If Tormund sees the big picture and wants to fight the Others.

2) If Tormund is loyal to Mance or his own man.

3) If Val revealed to Tormund that Mance was alive....which depends on if Val is loyal to Mance or to Jon.

4) If Tormund is smarter than he lets on especially with regard to scheming and literacy.

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I think Mance has an agenda that is in line with whatever the Red Woman wants. People cannot seem to lie to her, and I think Mance is no different. He is in Winterfell for more reason than for fArya.



Tormund though is out of the loop on this, just as Jon is. The Red woman however is IN the know about this... Look to the Skies...


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I think Mance has an agenda that is in line with whatever the Red Woman wants. People cannot seem to lie to her, and I think Mance is no different. He is in Winterfell for more reason than for fArya.

Tormund though is out of the loop on this, just as Jon is. The Red woman however is IN the know about this... Look to the Skies...

On the one hand, Stannis and Mel spent hours talking to Mance about gods know what. Hours. And then they spared Mance and Mel kept him close. So, they must see him as pretty valuable and weirdly trust him. There is a very good chance their missions are in line. Or at least Stannis and Mel think their missions are in line.

That is unless the only reason they spared him was to get Val on their side. I have no idea why Val is so valuable (I've heard all sorts of theories about Wildling matrilineal power and shit- who knows). Everyone and their brother thinks she's the most important girl in the world. Even if Val has a vagina of cosmic power, it doesn't explain the amount of trust Stannis and Mel put in Mance. I personally trust Mance as far as I can throw him. Something went down in those hours of chatting between Stannis, Mel and Mance.

On the other hand, Mance seems to have mixed feelings about Mel and the glamour:

"I feel it when I sleep. Warm against my skin, even though it is iron. Soft as a woman's kiss. Your kiss. But sometimes in my dreams it starts to burn, and your lips turn into teeth." (Melisandra, ADwD)

He seems darkly and fearfully seduced by Mel.

But, Mel's powers seem to not work in Winterfell (maybe because of the weirwoods trees?). All she see is snow. I wonder if that's why Mance appears unglamoured there. I wonder how Mance feels unglamoured.

Val, who Mance almost certainly visited, doesn't trust Mel.

"And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things in her fires."

"Ashes and cinders."

"Kings and dragons." (Jon X ADwD)

How does Val know about Mel's visions? She's confined to her tower. Mance must have told her about them.

What's weird is the statement "she knows who he is." Doesn't that make Monster safe? Monster has no king's blood.

So, it seems Mance did try to pull Val into whatever his or his and Mel's plan is, but she seems suspicious.

And Mance did ask Jon several times to range north of the Wall. I imagine it was to find Tormund, since Mance hates Weeper. So, Mance wants Tormund in his plan as well. But Mance only got to talk to Val who got to talk to Tormund.

So, Tormund's involvement seems very dependent on what Val thinks of the whole thing.

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I also agree that tormund and Mance aren't plotting. Mance is undoubtedly up to something is the letter part of Mel's plan to get john to trust him or is mance under the knife wearing skin cloaks?

Tormund giantsbane is undoubtedly his own man. If I remember right mance had to best him 4 times before he agreed to follow. I think if tormund back stabbed john it would literally make no sense and kinda make the wildlings out to be what Bowen and the likes made them out to be. Jon put his faith in them if they don't return it well basically Bowen was right and is right in killing snow. So no I don't think tormund is scheming.

Changing topics slightly was anyone else really disappointed with the Game of thrones version of tormund? He doesn't seem the jolly old giantsbane from the books I pictured him, well funnier. In the series he seems like your typical mean guy. I think the guy that played Robert would have been better. Anyways who knows if he'll die and be replaced or something of the like I hope for a more cheerful guy to be the defacto leader of the wildlings te guy now doesn't bring enough humor and emotion to the role IMO. Which really sucks because he's one of my favorite characters from DWD

That's 2 casting blunders so far (daario & Tormund) I hope they don't screw up with Vic, hey actually come to think of it guy playing tormund would be perfect for Vic ugh

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Bemused, interesting thought about those Wights being let out of their cells. Has there been any indication that they've come alive, though?

(I shouldn't have to mention I'm a believer of Jon being healed by the Wildlings as Mance once was when he was bleeding badly.)

No, I seem to remember Jon thinking they stubbornly refused to rise. But there's been some speculation that the reason they haven't ( or could be prevented ) is that they're bound with/by iron. If they're removed from the ice cells unfettered there may be nothing to prevent them.

Skinchanging Sweetrobin ... I think it's entirely wrong to assume that Mance could have visited Val. At first , both Val and Mance are prisoners,kept separately... Val is kept very closely guarded in the King's Tower with the baby.. She begs Stannis ( herself and through Jon) to let Mance see his son ... and is consistently refused. She would not be told by either Stannis or Mel of the Rattleshirt glamour. They want all the Free Folk to think Mance is dead.

It's only when she returns from meeting Tormund that Jon installs her in Hardin's tower , that she has more in the way of visiting privileges. Mance is long gone by then.

I believe Val knows about Mel's visions ,partly because Val herself has her own sort of visions.. we'll have to wait and see about that.

But that Mel has visions is also widely known anyway. Gossip about her was rife at Castle Black when Sam arrived.

Val and Tormund now see Jon as the leader who will care for their people. Even when the Free Folk realize Mance is alive... he's still been defeated and failed in his attempt to get them through the wall. Jon is getting them through the wall without the conditions Stannis wanted to impose on them .. allowing them dignity, showing them trust , etc. if Mance survives Winterfell , he'll at best be in a position subordinate to Jon ,like Tormund and the other leaders.

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Skinchanging Sweetrobin ... I think it's entirely wrong to assume that Mance could have visited Val. At first , both Val and Mance are prisoners,kept separately... Val is kept very closely guarded in the King's Tower with the baby.. She begs Stannis ( herself and through Jon) to let Mance see his son ... and is consistently refused. She would not be told by either Stannis or Mel of the Rattleshirt glamour. They want all the Free Folk to think Mance is dead.

It's only when she returns from meeting Tormund that Jon installs her in Hardin's tower , that she has more in the way of visiting privileges. Mance is long gone by then.

I believe Val knows about Mel's visions ,partly because Val herself has her own sort of visions.. we'll have to wait and see about that.

But that Mel has visions is also widely known anyway. Gossip about her was rife at Castle Black when Sam arrived.

It's 100% that Val knows Mance is alive. There is zero question about that.

"Is it Mance? Val begged the king to spare him. She said she would let some kneeler marry her and never slit his throat if only Mance could live" (Jon II, ADwD)

And that's exactly what happens. Val offers herself to be married to a kneeler. She even participates in the Wildling submission ceremony where they call her gods false and burn a man alive. Why would she do that unless she got what she wanted?

And let's think about the alternative: that Val doesn't know Mance is alive. That means Val begged Stannis to spare Mance and then turned around and participated in a ceremony where they burned Mance alive and desecrated her gods? Then decided she would marry a kneeler? That doesn't make any sense.

To boot:

"She sees things in her fire......Kings and dragons" (Jon VIII, ADwD)

Its not that Val knows that Mel has fires. Everyone knows Mel has fires. Val knows what is in the fires: kings and dragons. Meaning someone was with Mel, looked into the fires, saw things and told Val. Who else would tell her?

And, Val's isolation in the tower is pretty much meaningless as Mance bragged about how he can visit towers:

“I could visit you as easily, my lord. Those guards at your door are a bad jape. A man who has climbed the Wall half a hundred times can climb in a window easy enough. But what good would come of killing you? The crows would only choose someone worse.” (Melisandre, ADwD)

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It's 100% that Val knows Mance is alive. There is zero question about that.

"Is it Mance? Val begged the king to spare him. She said she would let some kneeler marry her and never slit his throat if only Mance could live" (Jon II, ADwD)

And that's exactly what happens. Val offers herself to be married to a kneeler. She even participates in the Wildling submission ceremony where they call her gods false and burn a man alive. Why would she do that unless she got what she wanted?

And let's think about the alternative: that Val doesn't know Mance is alive. That means Val begged Stannis to spare Mance and then turned around and participated in a ceremony where they burned Mance alive and desecrated her gods? Then decided she would marry a kneeler? That doesn't make any sense.

To boot:

"She sees things in her fire......Kings and dragons" (Jon VIII, ADwD)

Its not that Val knows that Mel has fires. Everyone knows Mel has fires. Val knows what is in the fires: kings and dragons. Meaning someone was with Mel, looked into the fires, saw things and told Val. Who else would tell her?

And, Val's isolation in the tower is pretty much meaningless as Mance bragged about how he can visit towers:

I could visit you as easily, my lord. Those guards at your door are a bad jape. A man who has climbed the Wall half a hundred times can climb in a window easy enough. But what good would come of killing you? The crows would only choose someone worse. (Melisandre, ADwD)

All conjecture. This isn't proof it's an assumption. Your reaching

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When did Val decide to marry a kneeler?

When she put on the crown and participated in the Wildling Submission Ceremony. There is a clear transaction taking place between Stannis and Val.

Stannis very clearly wants for Val to marry the Lord of Winterfell, who ever he will be. And this is very important to Stannis (for some unknown reason). Stannis speaks of Val and Winterfell as united concepts. Val's betrothal is so important that Stannis makes Jon vow that Val will stay with him. And Jon believes Stannis would kill him, the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, if Val went missing.

"The surest way to seal a new alliance is with a marriage. I mean to wed my Lord of Winterfell to this Wildling princess," (Jon XI ASoS)

"Horpe and Massey aspire to your father's seat. Massey wants the wildling princess too. He once served my brother Robert as squire and acquired his appetite for female flesh. Horpe will take Val to wife if I command it." (Jon IV, ADwD)

"If I leave the girl with you as well, do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely?" (Jon IV ADwD)

Do not fail me, he thought, or Stannis will have my head. (Jon VIII ADwD)

Meanwhile, Val is very clear that she is willing to do this IF Mance is spared.

"Is it Mance? Val begged the king to spare him. She said she would let some kneeler marry her and never slit his throat if only Mance could live" (Jon II, ADwD)

So, we have Stannis who wants to marry Val to a kneeler (specifically, whoever he names Lord of Winterfell) and we have Val who is willing to do it, if Mance is spared.

Now, as we all know, Stannis supplies Val her demand. Mance is in fact spared.

And what happens next? Val willingly participates in the Wildling Submission Ceremony and wears a princess crown. Without fear, unflinchingly, she watches "Mance" burn. Now, had the real Mance burned, Val wouldn't have participated and certainly wouldn't have unflinchingly. But of course it's not really Mance.

Val stood beside him, tall and fair. They had crowned her with a simple circlet of dark bronze, yet she looked more regal in bronze than Stannis did in gold. Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching. (Jon III, ADwD)

Now, remember, over and over and over and over and over, Jon has stated that Val is not a princess to the Wildlings and Stannis agrees with Jon.

"Your men call Val a princess, but to the free folk she is only the sister of their king's dead wife. If you force her to marry a man she does not want, she is like to slit his throat on their wedding night. Even if she accepts her husband, that does not mean the wildlings will follow him, or you. The only man who can bind them to your cause is Mance Rayder.”

“I know that,” Stannis said. (Jon II, ADwD)

So, Val's crowning is not to lead or rule the Wildlings. Of course, Stannis never said it was. He has always been clear: Val is to marry the Lord of Winterfell. The crowning is not for her to be Princess of the Wildlings, its for her to be Princess of Winterfell.

This whole situation might as well be Val saying "I want a sandwich!" ("spare Mance!") and Stannis saying "I am very willing to sell you a sandwich." ("...if you marry the Lord of Winterfell") Then, we see Val in Stannis' sandwich shop (the ceremony) and afterwards Val is holding a sandwich (Mance is alive) and Stannis has an IOU (the crown).

I'm not sure how anyone could see it as conjecture. Both parties declared intention for this transaction then we see the transaction take place.

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There is nothing wrong with this being a solid theory. That of course does not mean it is 100% Fact.

Okay, okay, since the series is inherently difficult to predict, I'll move off of 100%, but I'm still putting it above 90. :)

I certainly don't see how it's "reaching" (not your comment, Mournblade, but several others above).

The alternative is that Stannis and Val did not do what they both claimed they were going to do. And that somehow Val willingly participated in the Wildling Submission Ceremony and wore a princess crown even though she didn't get what she wanted. Keep in mind, this is a ceremony that burned Mance alive after she begged Stannis not to. That's would be quite a 180. What would have made Val okay with this if not sparing Mance's life?

The only other piece of leverage Stannis had is the babe. I suppose Stannis could have threatened to kill the baby unless Val got in line. But, there is zero textual evidence of Stannis considering this or bitterness towards Stannis shown by Val during or after the ceremony. Meanwhile, sparing Mance is considered by Stannis and, then, actually done by Stannis (though he does lie to Jon about it). Val meanwhile displays no hatred for Stannis (only a mistrust of Mel).

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Okay, okay, since the series is inherently difficult to predict, I'll move off of 100%, but I'm still putting it above 90. :)

I certainly don't see how it's "reaching" (not your comment, Mournblade, but several others above).

The alternative is that Stannis and Val did not do what they both claimed they were going to do. And that somehow Val willingly participated in the Wildling Submission Ceremony and wore a princess crown even though she didn't get what she wanted. Keep in mind, this is a ceremony that burned Mance alive after she begged Stannis not to. That's would be quite a 180. What would have made Val okay with this if not sparing Mance's life?

The only other piece of leverage Stannis had is the babe. I suppose Stannis could have threatened to kill the baby unless Val got in line. But, there is zero textual evidence of Stannis considering this or bitterness towards Stannis shown by Val during or after the ceremony. Meanwhile, sparing Mance is considered by Stannis and, then, actually done by Stannis (though he does lie to Jon about it). Val meanwhile displays no hatred for Stannis (only a mistrust of Mel).

With your explanation it helps with understanding where you are coming from, it's certainly something I over looked personally and I admit it lol.

I'll have to re read that and try to see what you are seeing in context, but honestly it could do with its own thread IMHO. That is not dismissing it btw but quite the contrary, I have not seen this theory before and it merits it's own thread.

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