40 Thousand Skeletons Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I don't think it's safe to assume that only the oh-so-special Targs are able to easily control dragons, through magical bloodlines or whatever. TPATQ pretty much debunked this notion, IIRC. You're probably right, but Lannisters haven't ridden dragons yet, so if Jaime is going to end up on a dragon at some point (I don't think he will) it would probably be a lot easier if he was a Targ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Third Eye Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 I don't think it's safe to assume that only the oh-so-special Targs are able to easily control dragons, through magical bloodlines or whatever. Me neither. Besides... haven't there been other dragonriders in old Valyria? To controll a dragon is something that has to be learned and the dragon has to be tamed. Quentyn's Targaryan blood helps him little when he tries to steal Vyserion (or does he try to steal Rheagal? sorry, don't recall) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chillboy Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 If Jaime and Cersei are not Tywin's children, then why whould Tywin love them and hate his only true son Tyrion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makrell Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 If Jaime and Cersei are not Tywin's children, then why whould Tywin love them and hate his only true son Tyrion? They are still lannisters, (Joannas) And he was probably forced to say so to the only women he loved, Joanna. He raised Jaime and Cersei, i see little evidence of much love. There is more respect than regarding tyron(whom he hates due to him being the only seed from himself, proving to tywin that tywin has weak seed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Third Eye Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 If Jaime and Cersei are not Tywin's children, then why whould Tywin love them and hate his only true son Tyrion? Who said that Tywin knew about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Third Eye Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 They are still lannisters, (Joannas) And he was probably forced to say so to the only women he loved, Joanna. He raised Jaime and Cersei, i see little evidence of much love. There is more respect than regarding tyron(whom he hates due to him being the only seed from himself, proving to tywin that tywin has weak seed) I cannot really see why Tyrion should be the son of Aerys, except for some of the reasons that also apply for Jaime and Cersei. Of course they all three could be sons and daughters of Joana and Aerys and well, since they all have blond hair and blue eyes, it isn't far fetched, that they are half Targaryan. If Jon's able to be half Targaryan and still have black hair, what's the problem with the Lannister Children being Aerys'?IMO, there are to things that make the Jaime and Cersei theory much more plausible than the Tyrion theory:- The two practise incest (like most of the Targaryans have done)- Joffry is a lot like Aerys- The Kinslayer symetry (supported by the fool at Renly's court) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Tyrell Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 If Jaime and Cersei are not Tywin's children, then why whould Tywin love them and hate his only true son Tyrion? That's the gag. Tywin is blind to his children, but the fact that his only true born child was the one he despised is incredibly juicy irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I would prefer them being Aerys's kids than Tyrion. However, I think all of them are Tywin's. There's only so many times GRRM can pull the "secret Targ" card... well, he had used the "he wasn't actually dead" card a lot. How many other "secret" Targaryen we had? Aegon is the only one I can remember. Maester Aemon doesn't count because they knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowisnobastard Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I have always found it odd that Jaime doesn't have the usual lannister prefix in front of his birth name (where's the "Ty"?) while tyrion does, could mean absolutely nothing, or it may be a hint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I have always found it odd that Jaime doesn't have the usual lannister prefix in front of his birth name (where's the "Ty"?) while tyrion does, could mean absolutely nothing, or it may be a hint Neither does Keevan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthyr Dracenstein Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Like Kevan Lannister, Lancel Lannister, Gerion Lannister, Ser Stafford Lannister, Ser Daven Lannister and Ser Damion Lannister? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Third Eye Posted March 23, 2014 Author Share Posted March 23, 2014 well, he had used the "he wasn't actually dead" card a lot. How many other "secret" Targaryen we had? Aegon is the only one I can remember. Maester Aemon doesn't count because they knew.Well...there are the two half secret Targaryens,Aemon and Dany (Not everybody knew) and the two that have yet to be revealed but are most likely to be Targaryen (The last Greenseer and Jon) and of course Aegon who imho is no true son of Aerys - but we'll never know that for sure unless GRRM decides to make Varys a POV Character and then have him reveal this information to the reader.Anyway.. I wouldn't care about there being too many Targaryens. What if they all were? Still wouldn't chanve a thing....even if this theory was true - would it necessarily have to mean anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreativeName Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 How many other "secret" Targaryen we had? Aegon is the only one I can remember. Maester Aemon doesn't count because they knew. (1) fAegon. (2) Jon. (3) Bloodraven. ("Secret", because no one knows he's still alive.) And potentially (4) Varys, (5) Illyrio, (6) Serra and maybe even (7) Quaithe (Shiera Seastar) or (8) Melisandre. So definitely 3 "secret" Targs. I'm including Jon. For me, there is no doubt anymore. I'd bet my life. And maybe even more. Either Illyrio or Serra seems to be at least a somewhat safer bet than the other potential ones (who drift into crackpot territory). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sapp Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 There is evidence up and down these books pointing to the twins being Targs. First bit was in AGOT when Jon sees Jaime wearing "crimson silk with a black cloak". Those ain't Kingsguard colors or Lannister's.I don't see why it is that surprising to have hidden Targaryens. If one Baratheon king can have 16 bastards...imagine how many bastards a Targaryen DYNASTY could produce? It's not that far fetched to have Varys, Melisandre, Serra, Mopatis, etc...as secret Targaryen bastards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petyr Patter Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I would prefer them being Aerys's kids than Tyrion. However, I think all of them are Tywin's. There's only so many times GRRM can pull the "secret Targ" card... Tyrion Jaimie and Cersei are all Tywins kids. Secret targs are boring and we already have about 4 of them. I actually think Martin is going to make a point with all the "secret Targaryens." Namely, what is the point of an interesting parentage if its already shared by a bunch of other people? A further deconstruction of the "hidden heir" trope found often in fantasy. So, when Jon's parentage is finally revealed, the idea that he could develop it into a claim on the Iron Throne is laughable. If Jaime and Cersei are not Tywin's children, then why whould Tywin love them and hate his only true son Tyrion? The theory works best the fewer people who know. In fact, I'd say Joanna herself didn't realize it since the kids looked so Lannister. The best explanation is a very brief affair (a one night stand, even) between Joanna and Aerys. When the twins came out looking so very Lannister, Joanna figured they were so very Lannister. Right up until she walked in on them "doing the Targaryen" as children. That's the gag. Tywin is blind to his children, but the fact that his only true born child was the one he despised is incredibly juicy irony. And this is why I love the Jaime and Cersei are Targaryen bastards theory. It is a huge embarrassing pimple on the most evil man per volume in the entire series (though Khal Drogo gives him some competition). He went through all these extraordinary efforts and expenses to replace Aerys's descendents with his own, but in fact replaced Aerys's descendents with Aerys's descendents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthyr Dracenstein Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I wonder if King Bob appreciates the irony of trying to get rid of the Targaryen bloodline, he marries one and his 'kids' are all Targs... Probably not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I don't subscribe (nor like) this theory but for the sake of argument let's consider it truth. So, how is this going to come up in the story? Aerys is dead, Joanna is dead, Tywin is dead, nobody suspects anything fishy about the twins parentage, there are no DNA testing facilities. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowisnobastard Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Neither does Keevan. kevan also isn't a first born son Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthyr Dracenstein Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 Genna (Lannister) Frey, Tywin's sister, might be suspicious. Then there's Bran's weirnet. Oh, and maybe Ser Barrestan Selmy, as one of Aerys Kingsguard, might know...if he was, indeed, a Kingsguard at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted March 23, 2014 Share Posted March 23, 2014 I think it's possible but unlikely. You've laid out a decent case. I think Joffrey can be explained as the result of incest combining all the worst traits of the Lannisters into one child. The incest itself could be back to Cersei's fascination with the Targaryens. She wanted to be one of them and has unconsciously imitated them in much of what she's done in her life. A fascination with fire/wildfire isn't genetic. Arson doesn't run in families. So Cersei's reaction to the wildfire and the burning of the Hand's Tower are not really good evidence. I do love the irony of it where Tywin is concerned though. Just as with the Tyrion Targ theories, we'll have to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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