Are Cersei and Jamie Bastard Children of the Mad King?

[Hangover of the Morning]

I have always found it odd that Jaime doesn't have the usual lannister prefix in front of his birth name (where's the "Ty"?) while tyrion does, could mean absolutely nothing, or it may be a hint

I always wondered that too. Jaime seems such a weird name for the golden heir of the mighty Tywin. Not that I think it gives any credence to the discussed theory (Jaime is not a Targ name and besides it would make more sense for Joanna to pick a quintessential Lannister name to hide her infidelity). My head canon is that Joanna named her kids the way she wanted and Tywin went along with it cause he loved her and because she was apparently the one who wore the trouser in that relationship.

Genna (Lannister) Frey, Tywin's sister, might be suspicious.

Then there's Bran's weirnet.

Oh, and maybe Ser Barrestan Selmy, as one of Aerys Kingsguard, might know...if he was, indeed, a Kingsguard at the time.

Genna was merely pointing out what was obvious to everyone but Tywin, that Tyrion in all but appearance was the most like his father from the three Lannister siblings.

You can come up with virtually any crackpot and claim that it would be revealed through Bran's weirnet and no one can say otherwise.

Even if Barristan witnessed Aerys having a go at Joanna (highly unlikely) it would only open the possibility and not proof anything.

[The Third Eye]

I don't subscribe (nor like) this theory but for the sake of argument let's consider it truth. So, how is this going to come up in the story?

Aerys is dead, Joanna is dead, Tywin is dead, nobody suspects anything fishy about the twins parentage, there are no DNA testing facilities. etc.

Most likely, not at all - I mean who said this was going to come up eventually? Good literature has always left the reader with more questions than answers. And Cersei and Jamie being actually Bastard children is one possible (way of) reading - with or without GRRM even being aware of that. Just in case, he was aware of that, I wrote down a theory for how this could openly contribute to the story. A person who could possibly know about Aerys being the father of the two, could be this Genna.

But like I said, most likely nothing on that matter will be revealed at all. Still, as - and this is today's most common way of interpreting and analyzing literature on an academic level - the text speaks for itself, Aerys being Cersei's and Jaime's father remains one legitimate reading. Even if! GRRM should openly debunk that theory. In a constructivist sense, every act of understanding is unique.

BTW: I think that once this series is over, a lot of die hard fans will be disappointed that many of their theories will still remain theories. It is not even a 100% sure that the question about jons parentage will ever be answered (Though I don't believe GRRM is backing out of this one, so I'd say we'll learn about that with a certainty of 99,9%) ...but I am almost a 100% sure that the debates about all the prohecies (Quaithe's, the prince that was promised theory, the things Bran says and the visions from the house of the undying) will remain controversial after the series is finished.

Even if we had an omniscient narrator theses questions would be hard to answer. With the narrative mode chosen by Martin, the limited range of answers is something we all inevitably have to face.

[Lord Damian]

Yes, the theory has been a hot one. I have been thoroughly convinced after the first readings and confirmed in ADWD when Ser Barristan told Dany of the Liberties Aerys took on the night during the bedding ceremony. No doubt they are Aery's bastards and that is why Cersei may have been denied marriage to Rheagar, she was illegit and Aerys somehow suspected it.

[Chillboy]

Yes, the theory has been a hot one. I have been thoroughly convinced after the first readings and confirmed in ADWD when Ser Barristan told Dany of the Liberties Aerys took on the night during the bedding ceremony. No doubt they are Aery's bastards and that is why Cersei may have been denied marriage to Rheagar, she was illegit and Aerys somehow suspected it.

The Targaryens marry brother and sister. Why should Aerys care if his son and daughter marry?

[Makrell]

The Targaryens marry brother and sister. Why should Aerys care if his son and daughter marry?

Why would Aerys marry his son to a bastard? even if it is his own bastard. IT doesnt hold any political value

[Universal Sword Donor]

Yes, the theory has been a hot one. I have been thoroughly convinced after the first readings and confirmed in ADWD when Ser Barristan told Dany of the Liberties Aerys took on the night during the bedding ceremony. No doubt they are Aery's bastards and that is why Cersei may have been denied marriage to Rheagar, she was illegit and Aerys somehow suspected it.

We've seen several bedding ceremonies. Pray tell, where is Aerys going to find the time and wherewithal to, presumably, rape Joanna *after* making a drunken joke about not getting the right of first night? Tywin hears that joke, and Tywin is going to be in the same room they bring Joanna into. Unless Aerys is a 2 pump chump AND all the men carrying Joanna assent and remain silent, there is literally no way for that to happen. The bedding is undressing and making crude jokes. The obvious implication is that he felt her up a good deal. Anything more and it would have been described as more than "taking a liberty"

[Chillboy]

Why would Aerys marry his son to a bastard? even if it is his own bastard. IT doesnt hold any political value

Since nobody knows Cersei is a bastard, it would make a huge difference. People would assume he just honors his Hand for the long services. Nobody would ever think of Cersei being a bastard.

[The Third Eye]

Since nobody knows Cersei is a bastard, it would make a huge difference. People would assume he just honors his Hand for the long services. Nobody would ever think of Cersei being a bastard.

If Aerys had the mind of a machivellisicly thinking modern-age man, you're right.... but I doubt that. If Cersei and Jaime were bastards they would have been bastards in his own eyes and bastards in the eyes of his gods and, therefore, no real Targaryans.

[Chatty Duelist]

*sigh*

No.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

We already have a perfectly good explanation for Aerys' turning down Cersei's hand for Rhaegar: it was a massive "up yours" to Tywin. Aerys probably laughed his royal posterior off about humiliating his Hand that way in front of everybody.

[The Third Eye]

*sigh*

No.

Even if this topic has been discussed here before and even if I'm not sure if I believe this theory myself, I still think it's legitimate way of reading the books. If you see things differently, why don't you back up your oppinion with arguments?

[Ingelheim]

We just can't know. Yes, Aerys took liberties, but enough to penetrate her? I don't think so. Tywin was there.

We'll know, but not now.

[The Third Eye]

We just can't know. Yes, Aerys took liberties, but enough to penetrate her? I don't think so. Tywin was there.

Or he didn't do it in the wedding night...

We'll know, but not now.

I beg your pardon, but what makes you so sure about that?? Do you know anything I don't know? Has Martin said anything about whether to reveal this matter or not? IMHO the most likely outcome is that we'll never know...

[Ingelheim]

[TheSnape]

I hope so.

I can't wait for the reactions of the lords of the Westerlands when they find their "lady paramount" is not really a Lannister but a bastard of the mad king.

They'll rebel...

[The Third Eye]

ok... i stop quoting before it becomes too confusing ;-)

[The Third Eye]

I hope so.

I can't wait for the reactions of the lords of the Westerlands when they find their "lady paramount" is not really a Lannister but a bastard of the mad king.

They'll rebel...

Cersei has already lost her power... even if Strong wins the duel she'll not be the ruler of anything anymore... at least that's what I think. "King Tommen" will soon be defeatet by Varys' allies viz Connington and Young Griff in an alliance with Dorne. At least that's what I think. Or can you imagine someone stopping them? If so, who? And who is not going to rebell against Cersei if she were ever to rule again over anything? She's been publically humiliated and disgraced...

[Annara Snow]

I'm so sorry, if this theory has already been discussed. It's been quite a while since I read the books and I wouldn't consider myself an expert. I also have to confess that I don't read many online discussions and theories because so many of the theories are theories based on a theory based on a theory that has been based on a theory... if you know what I'm saying. Not that I disregard those theories. Many of them may be good. I really don't have the time to catch up with all of them. So here is a theory from someone who read the books 2 years ago amd re-read some important chapters one year ago but that's it. So please don't laugh at me.

My theory:

While Tyrion is the only legitimate son of Tywin Lannister, his older siblings are bastards of Aerys (the Mad King) and Tywin's wife (forgot her name)

Why I think this?

- Joffry is often described as a secon Aerys. Maybe because he is his grandson

- One of Tywin's reasons to join Robert's rebellion was Aerys' affection for Tywins wife (I recall that being mentioned but not exactly where, I hope this is not from the TV show. If yes, I apologize)

- There is that one scene in the River Lands (Book 4 or 5) where Jamie talks to that old Lannister Lady and she tells him that he wasn't Tywin's son but Tyrion on the other hand was. Now when I read this, I thought it was just metaphorically speaking. Like if she wanted to say that Tyrion is the one who inherited Tywin's strategic way of thinking. But what if she meant it litteraly?

- Jamie's and Cersei's incestuos relationship and desires could be something they inherited from "their father"

- This would give a strange symmetry to the story. Jamie would not only be a Kingslayer but also a Kin slayer - like his half brother Tyrion.

What I think speaks against my theory:

- Aerys didn't want Cersei to become queen - but that could also express his guilty conscience because of cheating on his wife.

I don't think it's likely that any of the Lannisters are secret Targs, but I do think this theory is more likely than Tyrion being Mad King's son, which I don't believe at all. You mention several good arguments, and I would add:

- Cersei's love for the wildfire and her increasing paranoia,

- Aerys' weird behavior towards Jaime: keeping him around as the only KG and expecting him to obey and protect him, even when he would have to choose between him and Tywin. Although this could also be true if Aerys just had a delusion that Jaime was his son, or wished he were, as a part of some weird fantasy regarding Joanna. It's even noted that Aerys was enjoying taking Tywin's son from him, as a part of his rivalry with Tywin.

- It would make for great irony if the one child Tywin wanted to believe wasn't his, out of prejudice and pride, was actually his only biological child.

However, this argument is flawed:

" Jamie's and Cersei's incestuos relationship and desires could be something they inherited from "their father""

Aerys did not have incestuous desires. He desired Joanna Lannister. Aerys and Rhaella only got married because of dynastic reasons, they didn't even like each other (Rhaella was in love with Bonifer Hasty). Aerys slept with her because she was his wife, and towards the end of his life he started brutally raping her not because of any desire for her, but because he was batshit crazy and getting aroused when he killed people with fire.

Incest has nothing to do with the Targaryen genes. It's a part of their cultural and dynastic practice. They grew up thinking they would marry their siblings, because it's the way things work, but most of the time, there doesn't seem to be love or passion involved. When they married for love (Egg and his sons), they married non-Targaryens; some others were married to their siblings but there was no passion involved, and were more interested in their mistresses (Aegon IV the Unworthy, Aegon II and his wife Haelena, who didn't care where he was and that he had a mistress), in other cases, we don't know for sure if there was love and passion, or there was but it evolved after the dynastic marriage, and there are also cases when Targs married the members of other great houses. Viserys wanted to rape Dany, but not because he was attracted to her, but because he considered her and her virginity as his possession; at the same time, he made disparaging remarks about her looks (how skinny she is, her breasts being small, wondered if Drogo could really find her attractive) and didn't even seem to like her in any way.

The only cases we know of Targs really feeling incestuous desires are: Naerys and Aemon the Dragonknight, if the rumours were true; Aegon the Conqueror's love for Rhaenys, if it didn't develop after they were already married for dynastic reasons - but she may not have shared his feelings, since she had other lovers; and Baelor the Blessed, fearing his carnal desires for his sisters - but he may have felt carnal desires for every good-looking woman, for all we know - we don't know how he behaved with other women, his sisters were just those he had to keep around him at court. I'm not counting Daemon Blackfyre and Daenerys, or Bloodraven/Shiera/Bittersteel, because those people most likely did not grow up together, in the same household, as siblings, so their attractions would be an example of Genetic Sexual Attraction, which is a common phenomenon and doesn't say much about Targs being special in that respect. If we count those, then I think we should also count Tywin and Joanna, who were cousins, and may have married for love - in any case, Tywin loved Joanna.

The argument that they got their incestuous desires from their father would work better if that father is Tywin, who married his cousin and loved her (while Aerys married his sister for dynastic reasons, but wanted someone else, who he was not related to).

For starters, "Lesart" = way / manner of reading ; reading fashion ; reading style ; reading method etc.

Or you just use "approach" or "interpretation" instead :)

Well, I'll quickly summarize a few points about the A+J=J&C theory, to give you a general overview:

1.) Sorry to disappoint you, but the theory has already been discussed ad nauseam ("bis zum Erbrechen" :P ) in numerous threads on this board.

2.) Based on my observation, the theory isn't exactly highly regarded or favoured amoung the majority of forum members. Many fans are of the opinion that it would ruin the story and expose a serious flaw in the overall cliché-free and gritty narrative.

3.) While the theory seems very interesting at first, one could also construe many other counterarguments, such as (1) the lack of purple eyes (they have green eyes, AFAIK), (2) the typical traits of "classic Lannister beauty" looks, (3) lacking Targaryen looks, (4) too much (secret) Targs already in the story (Dany, Jon, fAegon, Bloodraven...) ... And these are only from the top of my head. There are many more (and more legit) rebuttals. Jon has of course no obvious Targaryen traits either, but then again we have the very telling ToJ scene.

4.) If you critically look at the current state of evidence ("Beweislage"), the theory isn't especially well supported in the text, except for a few potential foreshadowings that you mentioned. And if you look closely, many of these clues doesn't have much going for them and mostly doesn't hold water, or so it seems. It just doesn't feel right to me, you know what I mean? :) It's completely different from R+L=J or Gravedigger or the Frey pie etc.

Personally, I think it's a red herring ("falsche Fährte"). But ultimately, we have to wait and see.

Cheers!

Edit: typo, tweaked, elaborated (I'm obsessive, I know... :))

While I don't support the theory, the arguments I've bolded are also flawed. Cersei and Jaime would still be the children of Joanna Lannister, so there's no reason why they wouldn't have typical Lannister traits or Lannister beauty. (Why do people always assume that children must look like their father, rather than like their mother?) There is also no reason why they would have to have typical Targaryen traits. Again, their mother is definitely a Lannister. Not all Targaryen descendants have purple or indigo or lilac eyes or silver hair. Baelor Breakspear and his sons had dark hair like his Martell mother, same with Rhaenys (Rhaegar's daughter). Brown Ben Plumm is probably also a Targ descendant. Robert, Stannis, Renly, Shireen and Robert's bastards are definitely Targ descendants (through Robert's grandmother), but they all have Baratheon looks. Bloodraven is an albino. This is the kind of argument that could be used to argue that Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon were not Ned's children.

[joffrey fan]

I have always found it odd that Jaime doesn't have the usual lannister prefix in front of his birth name (where's the "Ty"?) while tyrion does, could mean absolutely nothing, or it may be a hint

I think Joanna named the twins and Tywin named Tyrion.

I hate this theory. When Genna said Tyrion is Tywin's true son, she meant that they're similar in personality.

Also Aery's groped Joanna not raped her during her bedding. I mean, the place was probably full of Lannisters and their loyalists, there's no way Aerys can get away with raping.

[BlackStark]

We already have a perfectly good explanation for Aerys' turning down Cersei's hand for Rhaegar: it was a massive "up yours" to Tywin. Aerys probably laughed his royal posterior off about humiliating his Hand that way in front of everybody.

The fact that he did reject match leads me to believe he had no belief whatsoever that Cersei and Jaime were his. Considering he sent Steffon Baratheon to Essos seeking out any nobles with suitable Valyrian blood, if Cersei were his daughter she would have been perfect because not only would she satisfy that requirement but it would be even a bigger fuck you to Tywin considering the pride at the match Tywin would feel would be completely misplaced because Aerys had cucked him.