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Are Cersei and Jamie Bastard Children of the Mad King?


The Third Eye

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I hope so.

I can't wait for the reactions of the lords of the Westerlands when they find their "lady paramount" is not really a Lannister but a bastard of the mad king.

They'll rebel...

If this is the case, I doubt they'd ever find out. Jaime is the one who would know, and he'd get the info from Ser Ilyn, who lost his tongue for coming across the information. Cersei wouldn't find out about it until her final moments, when Jaime tells her of it and then kills her.

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Cersei has already lost her power... even if Strong wins the duel she'll not be the ruler of anything anymore... at least that's what I think. "King Tommen" will soon be defeatet by Varys' allies viz Connington and Young Griff in an alliance with Dorne. At least that's what I think. Or can you imagine someone stopping them? If so, who? And who is not going to rebell against Cersei if she were ever to rule again over anything? She's been publically humiliated and disgraced...

Well "Robert Strong" could give Cersei power again. Cersei has been fully exposed, and now won't give a flying fuck about what others think of her. If she has Ser Robert beside her at almost all times, people aren't likely to contradict her, since he could cut them in half in a given second. Cersei will rationalize "As father said, every man needs a beast from time to time."

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The fact that he did reject match leads me to believe he had no belief whatsoever that Cersei and Jaime were his. Considering he sent Steffon Baratheon to Essos seeking out any nobles with suitable Valyrian blood, if Cersei were his daughter she would have been perfect because not only would she satisfy that requirement but it would be even a bigger fuck you to Tywin considering the pride at the match Tywin would feel would be completely misplaced because Aerys had cucked him.

She's a bastard though in Aerys eyes, so that may have sullied it.

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Here's a list of Targ tendencies in the ostensible children of Tywin Lannister:



Jaime - incest



Cersei - incest, insanity, ambition, pyromania



Tyrion - keen interest in dragons and fire, black eye could be from mixed purple and green pigment, hair is described as white-blond rather than golden



Just a list. If they do have Targ blood I think it's more likely to come from an old marriage with the Plumms than from Aerys though.


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Here's a list of Targ tendencies in the ostensible children of Tywin Lannister:

Jaime - incest

Cersei - incest, insanity, ambition, pyromania

Tyrion - keen interest in dragons and fire, black eye could be from mixed purple and green pigment, hair is described as white-blond rather than golden

Just a list. If they do have Targ blood I think it's more likely to come from an old marriage with the Plumms than from Aerys though.

Those are not genetic. The Targs did it for cultural and dynastic reasons, not because it's in their "blood". There's no incest gene. Most of them didn't even love/desire their siblings that they had to marry. Aerys and Rhaella sure didn't, if it was up to them, Aerys would have been fucking Joanna, and Rhaella would have been married to Bonifer Hasty.

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NOOOOOOOOOOO too many secret identities and resurrections. I know it's fantasy but like things to be simple.

I downright despise resurrections... (I still haven't forgiven that Martin created Lady Stoneheart.)

I hate secret identities since I hate conspiracies within conspiracies

But this would be neither of them. It would just ad an ironic symetry to the story....yet it wouldn't change anyone's identity. Jaime would still be Jaime and Cersei would still be Cersei. They'd just have a different biological father and Jaime would have happened to have murdered him.

But again... this is just one way of seeing things. It's not my "personal opinion" but a certain (way of) reading I have pointed at out of curiosity. Nothing more

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I don't think Jaime and Cersei are Aerys's kids for a lot of reasons, but I almost wish they were, since the irony that Tywin's favorites were actually bastards, (while the son he rejected was his one true heir,) would be pretty sweet. Plus it would explain the craziness that was Cersei and Joffrey...



But I think all three Lannister siblings really were Lannister's...any badness came from the LIon's own gene pool.


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Those are not genetic. The Targs did it for cultural and dynastic reasons, not because it's in their "blood". There's no incest gene. Most of them didn't even love/desire their siblings that they had to marry. Aerys and Rhaella sure didn't, if it was up to them, Aerys would have been fucking Joanna, and Rhaella would have been married to Bonifer Hasty.

Most people have a natural aversion to incest from the Westermarck Effect. Aerys and Rhaella certainly didn't much care for each other, but Aerys still fucked her even when she didn't want it, so he was attracted to her. Plenty of other incestuous Targaryen pairings worked out very well - Aegon and his sisters, Jaehaerys and Alysanne, Rhaenyra and Daemon, Aegon and Helaena, Naerys and Aemon loved each other and would have wed if they could. The practice of dynastic incest was common in Old Valyria, leading me to suspect that the Westermarck Effect is suppressed by some gene commonly found among Valyrians. The Westermarck Effect is clearly not functional in Jaime and Cersei, who were raised in close proximity and should, by rights, have been as squicked out by the prospect of bedding each other as most people are with their siblings.

Once again, I think any Targaryen blood they may have probably came from the Plumms, who are a notable Western house which we would naturally expect to frequently intermarry with their follow Western notables and occasionally with the Lannisters. The A+J theories are plausible, but don't feel right to me.

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Jaime being a kinslayer is what I find most fascinating... I kind of hope that Martin writes two or three more scenes that point in that direction but never openly reveals it... Just something to smile for the reader who'S open for that theory....


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Most people have a natural aversion to incest from the Westermarck Effect. Aerys and Rhaella certainly didn't much care for each other, but Aerys still fucked her even when she didn't want it, so he was attracted to her.

Like the men on Victarion's ship were attracted to the unfortunate maester, or like the Bloody Mummers were attracted to Brienne? Or like men in RL prisons are attracted to the men they want to humiliate?

Rape is more likely to be about power and violence and the desire to hurt, than about sexual attraction. And Aerys was aroused by fire, not by Rhaella, that's in the text.

Plenty of other incestuous Targaryen pairings worked out very well - Aegon and his sisters, Jaehaerys and Alysanne, Rhaenyra and Daemon, Aegon and Helaena, Naerys and Aemon loved each other and would have wed if they could.

Plenty of marriages in Westeros "worked out very well" without the spouses feeling any desire or passion for each other. Other than Naerys and Aemon, there's no evidence or even a suggestion that there was romantic love or sexual desire involved between these people. And Aegon and Helaena "worked out very well" if by that you mean that he had a mistress he was spending most of his time with, and Haelena didn't seem to give a damn (maybe she was even relieved).

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I don't subscribe (nor like) this theory but for the sake of argument let's consider it truth. So, how is this going to come up in the story?

Aerys is dead, Joanna is dead, Tywin is dead, nobody suspects anything fishy about the twins parentage, there are no DNA testing facilities. etc.

Now that Bran can listen at trees in the past, we might end up being privy to a lot of secrets.

I am new to the forum and the theory that the Lannister twins might be Targs is intriguing. It makes a lot of sense and might explain the breakdown when Tywin failed to broker a match with Cersei and the Targ prince.

That might be easier for me to accept because I definitely don't believe Jon is the child of L and R. I don't think Ned would have allowed Jon to take the Black without knowing the truth of his lineage if he had a chance at the iron throne. Moreover, I don't think he'd have tortured his wife and Jon by allowing them to suffer needlessly over a promise he made. There would be other ways around that.

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