A Bastard Snow Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 My main hate is to quote the Godfather "don't ever take sides against the family".IIRC she took Joff's side (saying its her duty as his future wife) against Arya.Also if I remember didn't she mention something to Cersei about her dad? "Family Duty Honor" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heidrun Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 My own theory is that so many readers have grown so used to "plucky girl" or "warrior maiden" or "girl-who-gets-to-fight-with-the-boys" or anything along those lines in fantasy and fiction, that they are a little frustrated because Sansa is NOT one of those archetypes. I think the OP raised some interesting points with her having stereotypical "girl antagonist traits." The later generations of girls have grown up empowered (not that this is a bad thing) so that female antagonists tend to come across as "girly girl vs. tomboy" or "pretty girl vs plain girl" with the plain, tomboy types typically being the protagonist. Being an avid reader of horse fiction in my youth, the stories are NEVER told from the POV of the rich girl with the expensive well-bred horse. Instead it's always the girl who mucks the stalls or retrains a nag. TV shows like Daria where the protagonist is smart and snarky and wears combat boots is considered a better role model than her sister who likes to wear pretty clothes and make-up and date. So, Sansa isn't a typical modern female in literature. Personally, I find it a bit refreshing that GRRM didn't turn her into a warrior princess alongside her sister, but instead shows what strength she can muster in her situation. The warrior-girl is a bit overdone in literature and fiction in my opinion (this coming from someone who owns 3 swords, 2 Kassai recurve bows and has used all of these on horseback) but I do enjoy seeing strong female characters that can be strong and female without donning armor or brandishing weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 My main hate is to quote the Godfather "don't ever take sides against the family".IIRC she took Joff's side (saying its her duty as his future wife) against Arya.Also if I remember didn't she mention something to Cersei about her dad? "Family Duty Honor" That would be Tully's words, not Stark's ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Sansa Stark Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 My main hate is to quote the Godfather "don't ever take sides against the family".IIRC she took Joff's side (saying its her duty as his future wife) against Arya.Also if I remember didn't she mention something to Cersei about her dad? "Family Duty Honor" Actually she didn't pick any side. She said that everything went too fast and couldn't remember. That doesn't sound to me she picked Joffrey's side. And her family words are winter is coming -_- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newstar Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 It seems like most Sansa hate goes back to her two great miscalculations in AGOT: 1) refusing to side with her sister over the Trident incident and 2) going to Cersei. That seems to be the root of a lot of the hate of the character, much like Cat's treatment of Jon seems to have damned her forever in the eyes of some fans, regardless of her many positive qualities and virtuous acts (love for her children, devotion to Ned, compassion, sympathy towards Brienne, etc etc.). To be fair, even if these two things in AGOT had never happened, I doubt Sansa would be as popular as Arya; Sansa definitely suffers in comparison to Arya, especially in AGOT (mindful of social distinctions where Arya doesn't care, blinded by Joffrey when Arya is not, uncaring about Mycah's fate while Arya is devastated, no close relationship with Jon as Arya has, etc. etc.). Still, I doubt she would attract hate had those two things not happened, since whenever I chance upon a Sansa bashing post or thread, it always goes back to things that she did or said in AGOT and specifically those two things (Trident incident and Cersei incident). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florina Laufeyson Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Probably. But also can we hold that against her when every chapter of hers is some new battle, some new torment? Living in a moment, focusing on surviving that day is something, IMO, Sansa does rather often. She doesn't have time ti look behind and see the changes, of some of which she is aware of. Yes, also, she doesn't reflect how some of her actions hurt her and her family, but is she able to self-reflect while she is constantly being attacked on the grounds what her last name is. And I mean, her clinging to it finding strength in her surname, memories of her home and her family is perhaps the only way of living. Yes, it certainly does stick like sore thumb, but not because she hasn't progressed or because she hasn't realized some things but because she actually rarely does that. It's not like Arya and her death list, or Jon's lessons who are shaping him into something different, not even Bran's journey to Bloodraven, because Sansa is neither vocal nor expressive over some things. They happen, change her bit by bit and she is not realizing many of those changes... She does progresses only that she doesn't think about that progress very often. Duuude, leik, i totally know why Sansa doesnt reflect on junk. But im just sayin' that a lot of readers dont know why. Cuz its so easy to miss that why. Hella easy. Like, because Sansa doesnt really think about what happened too much, people miss it. When Sansa does begin thinking about some of the shit that went on (especially her own actions), she slips into this catatonic state. The Red Wedding aftermath is the biggest clue. Shes sitting there with Xs in her eyes for a good while there and we see it mostly from Tyrion's POV which is interesting. Sansa has always been one to live in the moment, so it seems like her lack of self-reflection is simply there to keep her from going barking mad. So she focuses on the now and the little details (which she has always loved) and mentally murmurs on them. "Oh that guy's sigil is like a thing and i saw that thing once back when...uhh..uhh..TOURNEY and i hate Lannister cronies i think hes the cousin of so-and-so." Sansa is trying NOT to think about too much on purpose. At least im pretty sure she does. The denial about Joff for a long time in AGoT and junk...she didnt wanna face the music. Sansa has faced the music now, but its damn scary so she kinda just doesnt think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Actually she didn't pick any side. She said that everything went too fast and couldn't remember. That doesn't sound to me she picked Joffrey's side. And her family words are winter is coming -_- That's the worst excuse for Sansa I've ever heard from her fans. She was obviously lying (to herself mostly). Ned didn't call her out to give testimony because she "couldn't remember" what happened. I don't know why some of her fans try to absolve her of this. Yes, let's remove all of Sansa's mistakes because that makes her a much better character. She screwed up back then. Is it fair that people hate her continually for it? No, of course not (personally I don't hate her for this event alone). But the fact is, she did go against her sister in this situation. Arya & Ned expected her to tell the truth. Sansa lied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alayne's Shadow. Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Sansa is a popular character (I've read somewhere that besides Dragons, she is the main source of unofficial merchandising), and the hate from her usually comes from the same sources. Generally, her character is not what you'd expect in a fantasy series (And exactly what hooked me to her) and some fans don't understand that. They just don't feel hooked by her journey. That is a fair amount of criticism. And there's always the ones "Using Sansa to project some type of people" that seems to be going on a lot. You can't say how Sansa would be if she lived nowadays, because there are different social structures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bastard Snow Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I said the Tully words as Sansa does not act like a Stark or a Tully.She needs to stop letting other people decide her fate.Either pick her family or pick duty stop being so meek it rhymes with reek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Sansa Stark Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 That's the worst excuse for Sansa I've ever heard from her fans. She was obviously lying (to herself mostly). Ned didn't call her out to give testimony because she "couldn't remember" what happened. I don't know why some of her fans try to absolve her of this. Yes, let's remove all of Sansa's mistakes because that makes her a much better character. She screwed up back then. Is it fair that people hate her continually for it? No, of course not (personally I don't hate her for this event alone). But the fact is, she did go against her sister in this situation. Arya & Ned expected her to tell the truth. Sansa lied. Wow wow you are jumping to a conclusion way too fast here. I only said that Sansa didn't pick a side, never have I stated she didn't lie. Was it morally wrong of her? Absolutely, but I do understand why she did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newstar Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 That's the worst excuse for Sansa I've ever heard from her fans. Heh, I find it amusing that the Sansa fans who are the most obsessed with "agency" as a theme in Sansa's arc are the ones who most strongly insist that Sansa bears no responsibility for her more questionable actions whatsoever. The irony is apparently lost on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gods of old Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Sansa is not terribly hated by everyone. She is a very popular character in fan fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 That's the worst excuse for Sansa I've ever heard from her fans. She was obviously lying (to herself mostly). Ned didn't call her out to give testimony because she "couldn't remember" what happened. No, that's not excuse, that is what happened. Sansa never said that Joffrey's version of events is true. She has sided with nobody in this case, and apparently she paid for being the most grown up in the room. Ned knew perfectly well what happened and he didn't put the extra pressure on her to tell the truth. Duuude, leik, i totally know why Sansa doesnt reflect on junk. But im just sayin' that a lot of readers dont know why. Cuz its so easy to miss that why. Hella easy. Like, because Sansa doesnt really think about what happened too much, people miss it. When Sansa does begin thinking about some of the shit that went on (especially her own actions), she slips into this catatonic state. The Red Wedding aftermath is the biggest clue. Shes sitting there with Xs in her eyes for a good while there and we see it mostly from Tyrion's POV which is interesting. Sansa has always been one to live in the moment, so it seems like her lack of self-reflection is simply there to keep her from going barking mad. So she focuses on the now and the little details (which she has always loved) and mentally murmurs on them. "Oh that guy's sigil is like a thing and i saw that thing once back when...uhh..uhh..TOURNEY and i hate Lannister cronies i think hes the cousin of so-and-so." Sansa is trying NOT to think about too much on purpose. At least im pretty sure she does. The denial about Joff for a long time in AGoT and junk...she didnt wanna face the music. Sansa has faced the music now, but its damn scary so she kinda just doesnt think about it. Pretty much we have the same conclusion... I said the Tully words as Sansa does not act like a Stark or a Tully.She needs to stop letting other people decide her fate. Either pick her family or pick duty stop being so meek it rhymes with reek You mean like Lyanna chose Rhaegar over her family or when Brandon slept with Ashara whom Ned liked. Or even when Robb allowed his sister to remain on mercy of the enemy... What she did is very much Stark thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Sansa Stark Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Contrary to popular belief Sansa fans are well aware that she has flaws and makes mistakes and we do criticize her for it. However what we are not in favor for is when people take those flaws and actions and blow it in proportions. Which, unfortunately, happens quite some times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 No, he is not wrong. Sansa appears to us as very obtuse and rather flippant and even vapid. She begins the story as a very self centered girl who gets everything she wants and doesnt have to really think about anything. Its when she gets a huge dose of reality does Sansa become a much more interesting character. The lingering hatred for her comes from people who dont wish to see that Sansa has become a more interesting character over the course of the series. Just like how people still hate Theon or still think Dany's gonna save the world, etc. She is going to save the world though. :P But I do agree with you, the hate for Sansa comes from people that just cant move past how she acted in AGoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florina Laufeyson Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Pretty much we have the same conclusion... Every time she mentions Lady, dude. Every. Time. Sansa has massive guilt over that and sometimes even ponders that Lady's Shade is watching...judging... When Sansa forgets to ask after Arya, shes like "uhh..oh... o.O oh no." Contrary to popular belief Sansa fans are well aware that she has flaws and makes mistakes and we do criticize her for it. However what we are not in favor for is when people take those flaws and actions and blow it in proportions. Which, unfortunately, happens quite some times. Yo. It was actually not welcome to talk about Sansa's flaws in those threads. You know the ones. I tried once. I got shown the "door" so to speak. Theres a reason i dont post in those threads... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gods of old Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 People who dislike Sansa for not backing up her Sister don't seem to realize that many conflicts between children result in the children telling their parents they don't remember what happened. Children do this to cover up their wrongdoing without being a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Every time she mentions Lady, dude. Every. Time. Sansa has massive guilt over that and sometimes even ponders that Lady's Shade is watching...judging... When Sansa forgets to ask after Arya, shes like "uhh..oh... o.O oh no." That is also something Arya shares with her. They both more think about their respective wolves than their sister. Yo. It was actually not welcome to talk about Sansa's flaws in those threads. You know the ones. I tried once. I got shown the "door" so to speak. Theres a reason i dont post in those threads... Flo, you know my position about this... Take it to the corner where it belongs... :) And I hope that you find me, at least from time to time, acceptable to discuss Sansa's flaws. I may disagree with you, but I won't show you the door :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARYa_Nym Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Arya isn't a warrior princess. That's more true of someone like Asha. As for the Starks wolves are pack animals. Ned said that they must support each other. If we want to talk about betrayal no Stark has showed more disloyalty than Lysa Tully. Robb leaving Sansa is no worse than Hoster making Lysa have an abortion. He also refused to speak to his brother. Loyalty is something Ned values. I'm not sure if Lyanna chose Rhaegar over her family so much as she thought she was choosing him over Robert. Unless one believes she thought the Targaryens would kill her family and didn't care. I guess that would be like Sansa continuing to like Joffrey after she witnessed him trying to kill Arya. It's still debatable if Ned liked Ashara. It's possible. But then again it may have only been oh she's pretty. It's not like he had claim to her. Brandon did die trying to save his family member which is like Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Loyalty is something Ned values. I'm not sure if Lyanna chose Rhaegar over her family so much as she thought she was choosing him over Robert. Unless one believes she thought the Targaryens would kill her family and didn't care. I guess that would be like Sansa continuing to like Joffrey after she witnessed him trying to kill Arya. Yes, but Lyanna remained with Rhaegar and gave birth to his son after Brandon's and Rickard's deaths. The same thing as Sansa did after Trident incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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