The source of all Sansa-hate

[ARYa_Nym]

Yes, but Lyanna remained with Rhaegar and gave birth to his son after Brandon's and Rickard's deaths. The same thing as Sansa did after Trident incident.

We don't have all the info. Rhaegar could have kept info from her until later. He could have prevented her from leaving even if she went willingly. She could have been pregnant by the time they found out and they thought it was safer to stay put.

I think picking a male over family is more so Lysa behavior considering her foolishness with LF.

[Mladen]

We don't have all the info. Rhaegar could have kept info from her until later. He could have prevented her from leaving even if she went willingly. She could have been pregnant by the time they found out and they thought it was safer to stay put.

I think picking a male over family is more so Lysa behavior considering her foolishness with LF.

Yeah, but Sansa hasn't been like Lysa. Lysa deliberately lied to Catelyn for some nefarious purpose LF had, Sansa naively thought what she is doing is right for her and her family. She even contemplates about her father how he must see that she is right. Unlike Lysa who proactively worked on downfall of her family, Sansa was just a victim of her naivete, her father's stupidity and Cersei's manipulations.

[ARYa_Nym]

Yeah, but Sansa hasn't been like Lysa. Lysa deliberately lied to Catelyn for some nefarious purpose LF had, Sansa naively thought what she is doing is right for her and her family. She even contemplates about her father how he must see that she is right. Unlike Lysa who proactively worked on downfall of her family, Sansa was just a victim of her naivete, her father's stupidity and Cersei's manipulations.

Lysa naively trusted in LF and thought he cared about her. Continuing to like someone who harmed a family member is something Lysa has done. Rhaegar didn't hurt any Starks. That was Aerys. Joffrey trying to kill Arya wasn't a dealbreaker and I doubt Sandor kidnapping her, threatening her, and calling her a stupid bitch several times would be either although he saved Arya instead of tried to kill her so it's not nearly as bad.

ETA: In addition, it's likely that Rhaegar wanted to call a Great Council to get rid of Aerys so it's not like Rhaegar was okay with Aerys' actions.

Lyanna also asked to be buried with Rickard and Brandon. She wanted to be by their sides instead of buried in a place that had significance to her relationship with Rhaegar.

Of course I don't think any Stark is anywhere near disloyal as Lysa which includes Sansa but I think choosing a male over family is most like Lysa.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Mostly hates comes from the fact of her being "passive", because apparently, heroines should always carry weapons and know how to use them. You know, like dragons and Needle and Oathkeeper. To be powerful, you must know how to fight, otherwise, you're a pawn, you're weak and whiny.

Also, she's quite dumb. She definitely should have killed Joffrey when she had the chance, in front of two of his guards and then, try to run King's Landing and walk by her own to Winterfell or Riverrun to catch up with her mother and brother.

Silly Sansa...

[Newstar]

Mostly hates comes from the fact of her being "passive"

Actually, the two incidents which earned Sansa the most flack are probably the most "active" she's been in the books: refusing to back up either Joffrey or Arya's story and claiming that she didn't remember (choosing on her own initiative the middle ground), and choosing to go to Cersei. Of course, these two decisions to act on her own initiative rather than go along with what was expected of her blew up in her face spectacularly and had horrible consequences, but "passive" they were not.

[MyaStoned]

So I've been noticing that Sansa seems gets a disproportionate amount of hate on these forums. We know that she's the worst person in westeros, but why?

My theory is that it's because she practically begs to be cast as a villain in the beginning. She's got so many teen-girl-villain stereotypes going for her:

-She's popular

-She's pretty

-She's ditzy (or at least lots of people in the red keep think so)

-She's boy-crazy

-She's a girly-girl

-She's snobbish

-She's being taught to lie and manipulate

-She's catty to her sister

-She's slightly delusional

As readers, we identify with Arya more in the beginning because she is funny, a little out of place and she feels oppressed by westerosi gender roles. Sansa is her opposite, she's got the girl-villain-stereotypes going for her, she's mean to her little sister, and she makes some questionable choices in the beginning, so she must be the villain with a capital V. It's hard to shake this perception, and some people never have.

As a person who was a Sansa-ish brat about a decade ago, I feel compelled to stand up for her. Okay, so I was actually an ugly kid, and not popular, but I was plenty snobbish and romantically delusional and mean to my sister. Somehow I turned out to be a self-sufficient and relatively well-adjusted adult with healthy relationships, a career that benefits humanity, and no poorly-done facial tattoos (only top-quality professional facial tattoos for me ;))

Why do I care about this at all? Because all of you will probably have to interact with a bratty teenage girl at some point in your lives. When you do, I hope you will be more like the Ned, and less like Boros Blount (and DEFINITELY less like Littlefinger, yikes). More like Septa Mordane and less like Queen Cersei. Teenagers can be especially infuriating around the 12-14 age. Sansa is no exception, I'd say GRRM got "that age" across pretty well. But people who are irritating or even immoral at 12 are not doomed to become terrible adults. They mature, develop their personal moral standards, and learn that life is not a song, as is Sansa's story, and it's entirely because of the people that they meet and what they learn from adult role models.

Sansa's got about 11 years of good parenting going against about 2 years of a hostile environment and bad influences. She doesn't have much (intentional) blood on her hands, and has made enough small kind gestures (saving Dontos, helping Lancel at blackwater) that I've got hope for her.

I'm not even going to read any responses to this post (okay I totally will, but I won't respond to anything). I just needed to get that off my chest.

*steps off soapbox*

She's awful. Her POV chapters in GoT (which we're supposed to take as being 'written' from her POV, and representative of her mind) could not have been more damaging to her if they had been written by someone who hated her. Her feelings towards Jeyne Poole after Jeyne's father is killed (because of Sansa), her actions/reactions as Joffrey abused Mycah and days afterward, her running to Cersei to betray her own father - she is an awful, awful girl.

Or think of her sociopathic 'feelings' after Ser Hugh is killed in the tourney. "She wasn't sad he was dead. She didn't know him. Of course now he'd never live to be memorialized in songs about knights. That was sad." Sociopath.

[illrede]

She makes a bad series of first impressions.

She's more sympathetic than virtuous.

Not nearly to the extreme that Bran has, not nearly, but there is something about the Tully-Stark children that grates on me. I like her but I don't expect a heroine when it's all said and done. Bran could save the world (I expect he will) and I'd thank the author not to have to deal with him closely while he does it.

[Elaena Targaryen]

My own theory is that so many readers have grown so used to "plucky girl" or "warrior maiden" or "girl-who-gets-to-fight-with-the-boys" or anything along those lines in fantasy and fiction, that they are a little frustrated because Sansa is NOT one of those archetypes. I think the OP raised some interesting points with her having stereotypical "girl antagonist traits."

The later generations of girls have grown up empowered (not that this is a bad thing) so that female antagonists tend to come across as "girly girl vs. tomboy" or "pretty girl vs plain girl" with the plain, tomboy types typically being the protagonist. Being an avid reader of horse fiction in my youth, the stories are NEVER told from the POV of the rich girl with the expensive well-bred horse. Instead it's always the girl who mucks the stalls or retrains a nag. TV shows like Daria where the protagonist is smart and snarky and wears combat boots is considered a better role model than her sister who likes to wear pretty clothes and make-up and date.

So, Sansa isn't a typical modern female in literature.

Personally, I find it a bit refreshing that GRRM didn't turn her into a warrior princess alongside her sister, but instead shows what strength she can muster in her situation.

The warrior-girl is a bit overdone in literature and fiction in my opinion (this coming from someone who owns 3 swords, 2 Kassai recurve bows and has used all of these on horseback) but I do enjoy seeing strong female characters that can be strong and female without donning armor or brandishing weapons.

Here's the thing with this line of thought for me personally, it just bothers me. Sorry Heidrun I'm not trying to single you out in anyway, or cause any conflict with you, and I think we all can agree that this view gets mentioned quite a bit by several posters around here... I can even understand on some level why others feel this way, but I feel it more suited to lower forms of literature, and I just think ultimately it feels as though to save one type from being slammed you end up pitting everyone against each other causing more separation.

It's all about characterization and we can not say what emotional journey Martin plans to take us just yet with these girls - it's not over until the fat lady sings type thing. If some people are not impressed with Sansa's or Arya's character at this time they may end up good and shocked by the end IF that's the magic carpet ride we are supposed to take but Martin is not known for being sweet and cuddly, and the point is he has not clearly defined how we should feel just yet.

A different series, that I love as much as this one, has characters that share many similarities with Sansa and Arya but maybe written with a stronger divide... you are (or at least I was) extremely encouraged to love and root for the 'Arya' type and to loath and despise the 'Sansa' type. I adored our Arya from the start and I was not sure about our Sansa, if I would like her or not, until the end of Game... who's to say what I feel after the next volume.

In the other series I really loved and championed the 'Arya' character and I really hated the 'Sansa' character - who I could not wait for her to get whatever bad things she deserved so my 'Arya' character could get all of the good things she deserved.... well, while I still will not divulge any final results, I will say the author took me on one hell of a wild roller coaster ride and showed me I need to shut the fuck up and read until the end of the line 'cause she is a master storyteller/character developer/troupe twister/and so on. (and those girls were not even the masterpiece character of the series)

The thing is we are dealing with an author here, Mr. Martin, that has a special brilliance with character development and character bonds/relationships otherwise we all would not care as much as we do, so why not just enjoy the ride, the good and the bad? I love that Arya's personal character is in question - it should be at this point. It's interesting that Sansa has learned a few things the hard way - she should have. One way or another both of these girls will end up being a work of art to admire - that should never be boxed in as this type and that type kind of BS - as I believe they will be ever so much more than that even if one or both end up as depraved lunatics.

[Newstar]

As a person who was a Sansa-ish brat about a decade ago, I feel compelled to stand up for her. Okay, so I was actually an ugly kid, and not popular, but I was plenty snobbish and romantically delusional and mean to my sister. Somehow I turned out to be a self-sufficient and relatively well-adjusted adult with healthy relationships, a career that benefits humanity, and no poorly-done facial tattoos (only top-quality professional facial tattoos for me ;))

Well, bully for you, but having known many "Sansa-ish brats" in my time, I can assure you that some of them never grow out of it, and are just as hateful at 20, 30, etc. as they were at 11. You may have evolved and matured, but a lot of them don't. When I was that age, while I unfortunately knew many "Sansa-ish brats," I also had the privilege of knowing many girls who were not afflicted with horrible behaviours and attitudes by virtue of their age: they were perceptive, kind, considerate, and humble. It's a bit misleading to suggest that such behaviour is forgivable on account of age, since there are many girls that age who are perfectly capable of comporting themselves like decent human beings.

Also, while you congratulate yourself on having grown up and evolved, that doesn't somehow magically negate everything you did and said when you were a hateful brat. Arya is deeply scarred by the mockery she endured from Sansa and Jeyne, and many children suffer lasting psychological damage from the bullying and cruelty they received at the hands of "Sansa-ish brats." That their tormentors sometimes evolve and mature past those behaviours is of cold comfort to them.

Someone who was horrible to me when we were kids apologized to me years later by saying (and I quote) "Yeah, I was kind of a bitch back then." Suffice it to say, I was unimpressed, although I suppose I should be grateful I got anything in the way of apology whatsoever.

But people who are irritating or even immoral at 12 are not doomed to become terrible adults. They mature, develop their personal moral standards, and learn that life is not a song

Some of them do. Some of them don't. And again, that doesn't negate or magic away anything that they did and said while being terrible children. You can do a lot of damage to your fellow children as a child, as we see with how Arya throws herself into FM training in part because she values "Arya Horseface" so little.

Sansa's got about 11 years of good parenting going against about 2 years of a hostile environment and bad influences. She doesn't have much (intentional) blood on her hands, and has made enough small kind gestures (saving Dontos, helping Lancel at blackwater) that I've got hope for her.

Be that as it may, that doesn't negate or erase anything that Sansa did or said in AGOT, and her actions and words in AGOT are the reason so many are predisposed to dislike her: the damage was done.

[Disputatious]

That would be Tully's words, not Stark's ;)

Save that those are the words of her mother's family and she is in her own way a Tully.

[Disputatious]

Newstar sayeth:

"Arya is deeply scarred by the mockery she endured from Sansa and Jeyne, and many children suffer lasting psychological damage from the bullying and cruelty they received at the hands of "Sansa-ish brats." That their tormentors sometimes evolve and mature past those behaviours is of cold comfort to them."

And I reply:

Mostly Jeyne and others but not Sansa. Consider Septa Mordane's demeaning comparison of Sansa's sewing versus Arya's, for example. It is not Sansa who calls Arya "horseface". And so it goes.

[illrede]

That "horseface" thing always irked me. Mostly that Jeyne could get away with doing it.

Realizing that this is essentially "Arya Traditionally-Stark-Features" used by the lower class as mockery?

I took it as an active strike against Catelyn that she didn't land on that with both feet.

[Newstar]

Newstar sayeth:

"Arya is deeply scarred by the mockery she endured from Sansa and Jeyne, and many children suffer lasting psychological damage from the bullying and cruelty they received at the hands of "Sansa-ish brats." That their tormentors sometimes evolve and mature past those behaviours is of cold comfort to them."

And I reply:

Mostly Jeyne and others but not Sansa. Consider Septa Mordane's demeaning comparison of Sansa's sewing versus Arya's, for example. It is not Sansa who calls Arya "horseface". And so it goes.

"Mockery" might have been the wrong word, but I was sick of using "cruelty," and AGOT Sansa is plenty cruel to Arya. Most of the worst things she said to Arya in AGOT were said under some stress, but she can never unsay those things.

I took it as an active strike against Catelyn that she didn't land on that with both feet.

To be fair, I don't know how she would find out unless someone told her about it or the nickname was used in her presence, neither of which seems likely.

[ARYa_Nym]

That "horseface" thing always irked me. Mostly that Jeyne could get away with doing it.

Realizing that this is essentially "Arya Traditionally-Stark-Features" used by the lower class as mockery?

I took it as an active strike against Catelyn that she didn't land on that with both feet.

IA.

It was not just Jeyne who said it.

Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would wash and brush her hair…the way her sister did. To her sister and her sister’s friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. ”

Sansa's friends wouldn't have been of high birth as Arya.

There's also Septa Mordane. She was able to say that Arya has the hands of a blacksmith right in front of Catelyn. As an example in Agnes Grey the governess could not say derogatory things about a lady's child. If it got back to the lady she could be fired for it and the child knew that.

ETA: Newstar. I don't know if Catelyn knew about that but Theon did. He's not in Arya's age group so it may have been well known.

"Arya Underfoot. Your sister used to called you Arya Horseface." "It was me made up that name. Her face was long and horsey. Mine isn't. I was pretty."

Septa Mordane at least I wouldn't be surprised if she knew.

[Newstar]

"Arya Underfoot. Your sister used to called you Arya Horseface." "It was me made up that name. Her face was long and horsey. Mine isn't. I was pretty."

Right. I thought there was something in the books that confirmed that Sansa used the nickname as well. Jeyne just seems to be claiming credit for coming up with the nickname, not for using it. Arya's other passage quoted seems to suggest that Sansa and Sansa's friends used it, too.

...Come to think of it, if even Theon knew about the nickname, Jon must have known as well. Why didn't he intervene to get them to knock that shit off?

There's also Septa Mordane. She was able to say that Arya has the hands of a blacksmith right in front of Catelyn. As an example in Agnes Grey the governess could not say derogatory things about a lady's child. If it got back to the lady she could be fired for it and the child knew that.

Rather than this being GRRM making a point about how everyone either participated in or tacitly supported this treatment of Arya, to the point where even Septa Mordane was able to insult Arya to Catelyn's face, it could just be an error on his part: he's no stranger to historical inaccuracy. I'd like to believe the former is true, as that would be a nice, subtle bit of writing, but I never assume subtlety where the more likely explanation is incompetence or inaccuracy.

[Disputatious]

"Mockery" might have been the wrong word, but I was sick of using "cruelty," and AGOT Sansa is plenty cruel to Arya. Most of the worst things she said to Arya in AGOT were said under some stress, but she can never unsay those things.

Odd then that their father does not chastise Sansa for saying some of those things (in his hearing), despite indulging Arya to a much greater extent, as Sansa laments to herself at one point on the way South. Lord Eddard does once complain, in re Septa Mordane, that the latter is merely trying to teach Arya how to behave like a Lady, only to undercut the point at once by comparing Arya to Lyanna. Even his remark that the "wolf blood" led Lyanna to an early death comes off sounding positive, especially after he lets Arya keep Needle and then hires Sylvio Forel.

[ARYa_Nym]

Right. I thought there was something in the books that confirmed that Sansa used the nickname as well. Jeyne just seems to be claiming credit for coming up with the nickname, not for using it. Arya's other passage quoted seems to suggest that Sansa and Sansa's friends used it, too.

...Come to think of it, if even Theon knew about the nickname, Jon must have known as well. Why didn't he intervene to get them to knock that shit off?

Well, Sansa calls her horsey twice in her PoV.

“I don’t care what you say, I’m going out riding.” Her long horsey face got that stubborn look that meant she was going to do something willful...All she wanted for things to be nice and pretty, the way they were in the songs. Why couldn’t Arya be sweet and delicate and kind, like Princess Myrcella? She would have liked to have a sister like that.

One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father

I also wonder why they never called Jon that if by their own admission Jon and Arya look alike. Sansa said it would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard as well. Arya was high born though so Jeyne and the others of lower birth should not have gotten away with it.

ETA: I just saw your edit. I agree. It must be another inaccurate aspect to the books.

As for Ned he's the same one who did not scold Bran for climbing.

[MyaStoned]

Jon didn't intervene because he was a low-class "bastard" in a Winterfell that had been made horribly class-conscious and awful by the Southron influence of Catelyn Tully and her Septa and her snobbish Tullyish daughter.

[MyaStoned]

There is huge symbolic significance in the only two Stark children who look like Starks feeling like outsiders in that household.

[Disputatious]

If Lady Catelyn did not chew out the Septa, it was probably because she agreed and because, as she says later, that she despaired of trying to make Arya a lady