Metopheles Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 LIZARD eats PAPER Dragons over law/rightfulness/birth certificate/claim I think the lizard spock expansion is quite useful here. Spock and Paper relate to law and Stannis and Aegon, and are always destroyed by Lizard, dragons, Daenerys. The only thing that could kill Lizard/dragon is force, say rock and scissors, swords and warfare. Beyond that, the dragons prove her claim. If some cruel trick of fate gives you dragons, it is a sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skagosi High Chef Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 That is theft, in the eyes of the Seven and Andal law he is a usurper, period. And Aegon does have a claim, a lawful and rightful claim.Right of conquest is no true right, it is a man made construct not agreed on by all, the right of succession through the male line is a hallowed tradition in the eyes of the seven. And in the end when it comes to Monarchy the only real right is divine right.Targs established a monarchy through conquest, nothing else. They were not Westerosi nobility. They especially had no divine right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Tommen. Myrcella. Doran..for now.Doran just sent his vipers to KL. Deadly women with lots of knowledge of poison. He sent Oberyn to KL with the intent to cause issues, at the very least claim Gregor's head, but likely to poison Tywin. Doran is a very very dirty player, he's just smart about it. Look at his plot to marry Arianne to Visaerys, without a single person in on it. Very dirty dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 1. Do you support Dany's conquest of Westeros? No i do not. 2. Why or why not is it villainous? Antagonistic but not villainous, Stannis is the true king and Daenerys has no right to the throne. And keep in mind that Dany will invade Westeros with Ironborn and Dothraki, the two most savage peoples, who will burn, rape and murder everyone. *cough* Usurper's dogs *cough* *cough* 3. Are the noble families (not smallfolk) really worth your sympathy when they've already done what Dany's trying to do? Have they? Have they caused misery and chaos through unbelievable incompetence? 1. There is no right answer as to who the rightful king or queen is of Westeros. If you believe that Robert legitimately took the throne and that Tommen is a bastard then yes Stannis is the rightful king. If however you believe that Robert as a usurper and therefore his rule is illegitimate than Daenerys, or Aegon if he is real is the rightful monarch. Both viewpoints are valid. 2. Waht about the "usurpers dogs"? Where in any discussion of the usurpers dogs does Dany express a wish to kill the Stark children? I must have missed it. Now if they oppose her in Westeros as head of an army, or a kingdom and refuse to yield to her than yes she would kill them. But is she going to land in Westeros and go seeking Starks just to kill them because they are Starks, no. 3. Have you been to the Riverlands lately? The place is a shithole. Farms and crops destroyed, livestock killed, Small folk that haven't been killed, raped, erc and currently starving. There is a reason so many of them are traveling to KL to appeal to the high septon for help. War is hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 1. Do you support Dany's conquest of Westeros? No,όχι,jo,deyil,dz,hindi,ara,nein,pa,idak,tidak,ma,não,naha,hapana,nej,mai,hayır,không,nid oes,illa. I think I covered it all. 2. Why or why not is it villainous?I think that she may have good intentions but sometimes the road to hell is paved with good intentions. She isn't the typical villain but she is the antagonist. 3. Are the noble families (not smallfolk) really worth your sympathy when they've already done what Dany's trying to do? (I don't include smallfolk because each faction has disregarded them as pawns, so they're all guilty of it)I am sorry but I haven't seen noble families to use WMD claiming that what they do is for the common good when the only thing that they want is to satiate their ego. Not one of those masters is an innocent person. They are freaking Great Masters, they are directly responsible for the people in their city being slaves. They run the city, they order the training of the slaves. Every single one of those masters has the blood of hundreds if not thousands of men, women and children on their hands, whether or not they were a part of the crucifixition of 163 very innocent slave children.Does this means that in Westeros where the High Borns maltreat smallfolk have to randomly die? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Aegon, Stannis, Edmure, Doran, and Lysa never used smallfolk attacking methods. What exactly is a"smallfolk attacking method" and when has Dany used such a method? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 3. Are the noble families (not smallfolk) really worth your sympathy when they've already done what Dany's trying to do?Have they? Have they caused misery and chaos through unbelievable incompetence? Is that a trick question? Of course they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 tl.dr : Autonomy for Iron Islands, Keeping the other kingdoms If I thought that would be a stable arrangement, and the greenlanders wanted it so, fine. Sadly, though, their rampant imperialism make me very doubtful such a situation would ever persist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Does this means that in Westeros where the High Borns maltreat smallfolk have to randomly die?If they take part in planning, carrying out, or just plain knowing about and doing nothing to stop it, the mass murdering of innocent smallfolk children, then I basically have no issue. But Westeros is run differently than Meereen. The Lannisters can carry out numerous atrocities without involving other families. Not so in Meereen since they rule as a council and make decisions together. There is zero evidence that even 1 of the people Dany killed did not deserve death (not death by crucifixion, that's bad, but death none the less). There is no reason to believe the same fate will fall upon the Westerosi nobles, unless they do as the Meereenese nobles did. Dany did not harm a single Yunkai noble in her conquest of Yunkai, because they surrendered peaceful. Meereen fought, using tactics that were meant to insult and offend Dany. They got exactly what they deserved. You won't see me shedding a single tear over slaver's deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 What exactly is a"smallfolk attacking method" and when has Dany used such a method? Raiding parties that objective is to attack smallfolk. The question was who doesn't go to the extreme. The nobles children over thirteen of Astapor were killed without justification, I count this and the smallfolk attack method as extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 There is zero evidence that even 1 of the people Dany killed did not deserve death (not death by crucifixion, that's bad, but death none the less). You know, the burden of evidence is usually on the one who's doing the killing. And there's exactly the same amount of evidence that even 1 of the people Dany killed did deserve death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Raiding parties that objective is to attack smallfolk. The question was who doesn't go to the extreme. The nobles children over thirteen of Astapor were killed without justification, I count this and the smallfolk attack method as extreme. Well except for the fact that nobles aren't smallfolk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 You know, the burden of evidence is usually on the one who's doing the killing. And there's exactly the same amount of evidence that even 1 of the people Dany killed did deserve death.Except they're great masters who are responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not thousands :dunno: kinda deserve to die IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wmarshal Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Well except for the fact that nobles aren't smallfolk. I didn't say they were, again the question was who doesn't go to the extreme, I count the smallfolk attack methods used by many a westerosi lord and what Dany did separately and both extreme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialsnowflake Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Dany is one of my favorite characters, and I would LOVE for her to become a proper villain. She's already done some pretty villainous things, and I wholeheartedly approve of most of them because some people just deserve to burn. She's kind of psychotic, which is one of the main reasons I love her. If I had her powers I would be eliminating a lot of people in the real world left and right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Doran is a very very dirty player, he's just smart about it. Well I went by the definition of being a dirty player like using FM or breaking guest right to kill your foe or using leeches and shadows or lying about some big thing. Doran is a clean player. He did nothing questionable so far. He did demand a head, thats all. And there is no law that keeps you from marrying your daughter to who you want. Or your son. He plays to win. But in a grand scheme. Getting the crazy snakes to KL isn't dirty at all. They were promised a seat, they take it. He did not tell them to cook Cersei's meals or shave Jaime's neck. What they do is theirs. Not Doran's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metopheles Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Dany is one of my favorite characters, and I would LOVE for her to become a proper villain. She's already done some pretty villainous things, and I wholeheartedly approve of most of them because some people just deserve to burn. She's kind of psychotic, which is one of the main reasons I love her. If I had her powers I would be eliminating a lot of people in the real world left and right... Hi ! That's some scary shit but yeah ;) Dany!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Dany is one of my favorite characters, and I would LOVE for her to become a proper villain. She's already done some pretty villainous things, and I wholeheartedly approve of most of them because some people just deserve to burn. She's kind of psychotic, which is one of the main reasons I love her. If I had her powers I would be eliminating a lot of people in the real world left and right... I must say I have more respect for this stance than the one's trying to whitewash Daenerys and present her as some sort of savior figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
specialsnowflake Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 Hi ! That's some scary shit but yeah ;) Dany!! I have a desire to one day become an immortal ninja vigilante and murder all the rapists, so it's no surprise I like Dany. (I also love that MMD killed Drogo because, let's face it, he and all the rest of those Dothraki rapists deserved it, but I still approve of Dany burning her. I guess I'm also a little psychotic...) I must say I have more respect for this stance than the one's trying to whitewash Daenerys and present her as some sort of savior figure. Yeah, I definitely don't see her as a savior. She's a badass, though. I've noticed that there are polarizing views on Dany, Jon, and Stannis on this forum, but I actually love all three of them for completely different reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 I must say I have more respect for this stance than the one's trying to whitewash Daenerys and present her as some sort of savior figure. Who is doing that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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