Which continent is more "evolved," Westeros or Essos?

[Cas Stark]

Wow, you would think such an interest in a medieval based fantasy series would encourage basic understanding of the time period.

The "Dark Ages" are a myth. The Church did not stop or slow learning. The Renaissance love for Antiquity had much more to do with art and philosophy than it did with science and technology.

Em, not really, if you are talking about the former Western Roman Empire, then the 'dark ages' most absolutely did see a drop in standard of living, drop in trade, drop in agricultural output, drop in literacy, drop in urbanization, drop in just about every single measure you can conceive of....

When your civilization forgets how to mix concrete and build domes for almost 1000 years....something has gone wrong. LOL.

So, to me Essos is like the Eastern Roman Empire...it's kind of effete, has a lingering sense of supremacy due to it's proximity to Valryia but is living on past glory.

[Fat Trell]

Em, not really, if you are talking about the former Western Roman Empire, then the 'dark ages' most absolutely did see a drop in standard of living, drop in trade, drop in agricultural output, drop in literacy, drop in urbanization, drop in just about every single measure you can conceive of....

When your civilization forgets how to mix concrete and build domes for almost 1000 years....something has gone wrong. LOL.

So, to me Essos is like the Eastern Roman Empire...it's kind of effete, has a lingering sense of supremacy due to it's proximity to Valryia but is living on past glory

I'm not going to debate historical fact with you. The things you listed speak to the lack of a strong, organized central power like the Romans(and the wealth such a power generates), not the lack of societal progress.

[Lord Reaver]

Also, while there may have been a temporary setback in certain fields due to the loss of said centralized power, to hold that this lasted for the entire medieval period is, quite frankly, ludicrous.

[DanyTheSaltWife]

Militarily : Essos many so of the free cities have standing full time militaries and do not rely on the primitive feudal system. The only thing Westros has that is comparable is the Nights Watch. I believe that Southos is mentioned to have the best bows but the Dorthraki composite bows are better than anything in Westros (at least according to Ser Jorah ). However it is worth noting Westros has Wildfire.

Economically : Essos Much more diverse economies and much more prosperous cities

Socially: is debatable.

[Frey Pie]

Militarily : Essos many so of the free cities have standing full time militaries and do not rely on the primitive feudal system. The only thing Westros has that is comparable is the Nights Watch. I believe that Southos is mentioned to have the best bows but the Dorthraki composite bows are better than anything in Westros (at least according to Ser Jorah ). However it is worth noting Westros has Wildfire.

Economically : Essos Much more diverse economies and much more prosperous cities

Socially: is debatable.

Essosi use slaves as soldiers. Look at their army against Danys - it's a travesty. Most of the other cities hire mercenaries to do their fighting and pay off rapists to keep them away I.e the dothraki.

The summer Isles have the best bows due to the wood they are made of. The dothraki bows are fired from horseback and so lack the range of the westerosi longbows.

It's worth noting that the best army in Essos is essentially a westerosi army I.e the gold company

[MyaStoned]

As we follow events of the Seven Realms and other points North and South in Westeros, we are also learning more about the history and modern culture of the free cities, Slavers Bay, etc. Overall, based on our understanding of how cultures and technologies evolved on Earth, would you say that Essos or Westeros was further along the path towards modernity?

Consider weaponry and other technologies, economic structures, slavery vs. virtual serfdom, inclusion of religion in society, levels and types of self-determination or castes or hierarchies, educational systems, etc.

Title and premise show a misunderstanding of evolution (evolution is the result of a succession of instances of having been the best fit for a given place and time and circumstance, nothing more), and a (common, but still incorrect) misunderstanding of 'progress'. You're basically taking for granted that modern civilization, as we know it on earth, is 'more evolved', or 'more progressed' than, say, ancient Rome, or ancient Greece, or than Native American or Pacific Island cultures. But Greek and Roman civilization dwarf our culture in certain fundamental respects. And Native American and Pacific Island cultures were infinitely sustainable and did not result in environmental destruction, extinction, excess, or a hundred other things that are not merely negligible side-effects, but which are signs of a way of life being fundamentally broken and wrong. Not even to mention those cultures' complete avoidance of 'work' (which again, we take for granted) and the kind of alienation Marx would later talk about.

[TheNinjaDC]

I'd rank it as:

1: Northern Free Cities Essos (Braavos, nuff said)

2: Westeros: Maesters & rather developed military technologies.

3:Quarth: Rich, but seem a little to clingy to tradition.

4:Southern Free Cities Essos: Good, but by all accounts have been in decline for centuries.

5: Slavers Bay: Their culture is so broken and stupid. Flamenco/Stilt soldiers, nuff said.

6: Dorthraki: "Is that an anti cavalry shield wall, lets ram it!!!" Mongols, you are not.

Wild card: Summer Isles. Good ships & bows, but they are a mystery.

[Lord Reaver]

I'd rank it as:

1: Northern Free Cities Essos (Braavos, nuff said)

2: Westeros

3:Quarth: Rich, but seem a little to clingy to tradition.

4:Southern Free City Essos: Good, but by all accounts have been in decline for centuries.

5: Slavers Bay: Their culture is so broken and stupid. Flamenco/Stilt soldiers, nuff said.

6: Dorthraki: "Is that an anti cavalry shield wall, lets ram it!!!" Mongols, you are not.

I can agree to this.

[DanyTheSaltWife]

Essosi use slaves as soldiers. Look at their army against Danys - it's a travesty. Most of the other cities hire mercenaries to do their fighting and pay off rapists to keep them away I.e the dothraki.

The summer Isles have the best bows due to the wood they are made of. The dothraki bows are fired from horseback and so lack the range of the westerosi longbows.

It's worth noting that the best army in Essos is essentially a westerosi army I.e the gold company

I am not referring to Slavers bay. And referring to The Free cities. Being on a horse does not improve a bows quality. They are likely based on composite bows and that are better then westren bows.

Bravos has a Standing FREE navy and has show military strength in defeating Pentos.

And Golden company sure did shock Essos with Westrosi Elephant warfare

[Frey Pie]

I am not referring to Slavers bay. And firing on a horse does not improve a bows quality. They are likely based on composite bows. Bravos has a Standing FREE navy and has show military strength in defeating Pentos.

And Golden company sure did shock Essos with Westrosi Elephant warfare

Fair enough about slavers bay.

I assume you mean firing from a horse and I agree. This is why westerosi longbows would out distance dothraki who shoot from the saddle

And the elephants are only a small part of the GC. They are composed like a westerosi army and have westerosi heritage and members

And yes braavos is a great sea power, above all others. It's land army is an unknown. As a stand alone city braavos is likely the greatest

[oursisthefury69]

Considering more men have lived in Essos for much longer, and they are still mostly a bunch of tyrannically run city-states that still practice slavery, and are capable of being conquered by a fifteen year old girl overnight, I'd say its pretty obvious.?

Essos also has the Dothraki who still pillage, rape and murder as a way of life. Is this like the Sandor and Gregor might be brothers thing?

[Lord Kevan]

Free cities and and Slaver Bay are totally different, for the need of the Roman/carthaginian metaphore. Free Cities are Late Middle Age Italian cities, for the mercenaries, new technologies, art, culture... and Slaver bay is still in a classic way of things, in their manner of fight, dress and ruling.

Westeros is between the two. Plenty of modern things, but still wildings and savage in the moon mountain. And a feudalism who stay for millenary.

[Fat Trell]

Free companies of mercenary's is not a more advanced or logical way of fighting wars than feudalism. I don't believe there was any time in human history where wars were fought by the relative number of mercenaries that they appear to be in Essos.

If you want to champion an Essosi military; try New Ghis. They are the only place we have heard of(besides Bravvos I assume) they seems to exclusively use citizen armies.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Free companies of mercenary's is not a more advanced or logical way of fighting wars than feudalism. I don't believe there was any time in human history where wars were fought by the relative number of mercenaries that they appear to be in Essos.

Carthage, late medieval Italy, Thirty Years War.

[complexphoenix]

If you define "evolved" as "having strong and stable institutions that do a good job of keeping order, promoting prosperity and guaranteeing rights" than the most evolved place we've seen yet is Braavos, by far.

The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros are more evolved than Slaver's Bay. We don't know too much about the other Free Cities, but we know they keep slaves, which is a major strike against them - slave societies are always and everywhere ill-favored, because slavery has toxic effects on political economy by its very nature. The Dothraki are probably the worst. The Wildlings are better than the Dothraki by dint of not having slavery, but on no other measure are they better.

[Lord Reaver]

Carthage, late medieval Italy, Thirty Years War.

Those examples prove that simply having mercenaries be a large part of your military is no indication of evolution, however.

It is the manner of organization of the mercenaries that is key, not the fact they exist.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Those examples prove that simply having mercenaries be a large part of your military is no indication of evolution, however.

It is the manner of organization of the mercenaries that is key, not the fact they exist.

Certainly. I was just answering your sort-of-question, not commenting on the actual issue at hand.

And since I only recently noticed that the forum lost my post from yesterday, I'll sum it up again:

There are far to many different cultures in Essos to make a statement about entire Essos, and there are far too much different areas of evolution/expertise, with Westeros and the Essosi areas splattered all over to make a general comparison.

You'd need to compare very narrow areas of expertise. For example, in optics Myr is superior. Land-based combat: Westeros. Book-keeping: Free Cities, especially the northwestern ones. Theater culture: Braavos. Idiot-breeding: Dothraki and Slaver's Bay.

[Fat Trell]

Carthage, late medieval Italy, Thirty Years War.

Carthaginian mercenaries were more like the later Roman Auxiliaries than the Free Companies we see in ASOIAF.

The Thirty Years War saw Sweden and the Bohemians(I think, been awhile since European History) use a lot of mercenaries, and saw most of them desert when the fighting became too hard or they got better offers.

The Italians had some decent success, that I'll grant.

[MyaStoned]

Certainly. I was just answering your sort-of-question, not commenting on the actual issue at hand.

And since I only recently noticed that the forum lost my post from yesterday, I'll sum it up again:

There are far to many different cultures in Essos to make a statement about entire Essos, and there are far too much different areas of evolution/expertise, with Westeros and the Essosi areas splattered all over to make a general comparison.

You'd need to compare very narrow areas of expertise. For example, in optics Myr is superior. Land-based combat: Westeros. Book-keeping: Free Cities, especially the northwestern ones. Theater culture: Braavos. Idiot-breeding: Dothraki and Slaver's Bay.

Where are the people happiest and healthiest and safest and able to be laziest? Where are people ends rather than means? Where is the environment having the least damage done to it? Which is most sustainable?

Those are the only relevant questions when discussing superiority or inferiority of civilizations. America is plenty advanced, but almost everyone I know or have ever known is stressed out and miserable and incredibly far from being his or her best possible self.

[illrede]

So, to me Essos is like the Eastern Roman Empire...it's kind of effete, has a lingering sense of supremacy due to it's proximity to Valryia but is living on past glory.

That's the analogy I thought of, but I took a different spin on it. Essos technically with a more advanced heritage that they have direct continuity with, but now in difficulty. Established, long term, climax of difficulty.

So yes, Eastern Roman Empire to western Europe... in 1450.

Edit: Ok, not 1450. But it's getting there, and that was with things like Myrish lense crafting. At some point it's going to stop being difficult to tell if certain free cities are technically in the Westeros sphere because that's where their commodities comes from and that's where their markets are and their interior is a pestilential swamp or a Dorthraki shatter-zone, and not in Essos's favor.