Chebyshov Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Also conflating Westeros is problematic. Dorne is much more tolerant and equal than the other kingdoms, and even the Wildlings have more progressive views on women's rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Also conflating Westeros is problematic. Dorne is much more tolerant and equal than the other kingdoms, and even the Wildlings have more progressive views on women's rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Trell Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Also conflating Westeros is problematic. Dorne is much more tolerant and equal than the other kingdoms, and even the Wildlings have more progressive views on women's rights. A culture built around rape is not progressive by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 A culture built around rape is not progressive by any means. The wildlings aren't. Generally speaking, the whole "stealing daughters" part is just a proposal ceremony which the bride to be can answer any way she likes. In a way, it's more progressive than main Westeros' arranged marriages. The problem arises in the clash with the North's society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GallowsKnight Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Braavos > Westeros > Rest of the Free Cities > Slaver's Bay That's pretty much how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanless Mace Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 Title and premise show a misunderstanding of evolution (evolution is the result of a succession of instances of having been the best fit for a given place and time and circumstance, nothing more), and a (common, but still incorrect) misunderstanding of 'progress'. You're basically taking for granted that modern civilization, as we know it on earth, is 'more evolved', or 'more progressed' than, say, ancient Rome, or ancient Greece, or than Native American or Pacific Island cultures. But Greek and Roman civilization dwarf our culture in certain fundamental respects. And Native American and Pacific Island cultures were infinitely sustainable and did not result in environmental destruction, extinction, excess, or a hundred other things that are not merely negligible side-effects, but which are signs of a way of life being fundamentally broken and wrong. Not even to mention those cultures' complete avoidance of 'work' (which again, we take for granted) and the kind of alienation Marx would later talk about.I'm very well aware of what "evolution" is, thank you. I'm not one of those Bible-toting reality-deniers who think "intelligent design" is an intelligent theory. That being said, there are different definitions of "evolution," and Merriam Webster includes this one:------a : a process of change in a certain direction b : the action or an instance of forming and giving something off c (1) : a process of continuous change from a lower, simpler, or worse to a higher, more complex, or better state : a process of gradual and relatively peaceful social, political, and economic advance------(Note that there is no "this is better" judgement call in that definition.)Clearly, since this post has generated some response, most folks understand what the use of "evolution" means here. Similarly, I also think most people understood what President Obama was trying to say when he said his position on gay marriage rights had "evolved"; he meant to imply that it was an advancement towards a more modern and appropriate view of human rights and dignity that is rooted less in old-school bigotry and more in "modern" tolerance. It's a judgement call to say that's an "evolved" position (I would argue it is), but regardless, most people do understand what the use of the word means here, and that opened up a great conversation. And in my defense, you say I am "taking for granted that modern civilization...is more evolved." Sorry, but I said no such thing. I merely asked a question, and dozens of responders have argued one way or the other, as you have here. Thanks for contributing to the conversation. I agree that what is "modern" is not always "better." Worth discussing. My OP did mention "modernity" as an ersatz target for societal evolution. Again, I agree there's a judgement call here...IF one assumes "evolving" to be always a good thing. Debatable for sure, as you note. Wikipedia has this definition of "modernity":------"Modernity typically refers to a post-traditional, post-medieval historical period, one marked by the move from feudalism (or agrarianism) toward capitalism, industrialization, secularization,rationalization, the nation-state and its constituent institutions and forms of surveillance." ------Again, if we avoid making a "this is good" judgement, we can still discuss Westeros and a Essos in terms of this approach to "evolving" towards modernity -- and a good case can be made for either continent being further along this journey. Hence, we've had a great debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanzor Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Braavos is definetly evolved in terms of acceptance,human dignity,it is well suited for the typical citizen. Even from the newest pov when it is described the kind of plays(Phario Forel's) involing shitting on the sealord's head "only in Braavos could the sealord and the sailor laugh in the same room" we can see well the level of free will and expression. I also think Oldtown is nearly as evolved as Braavos. An interesting city i think would be as evolved as Braavos would be Lorath following the close proximity between the 2 cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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