[TWoW SPOILERS] March chapter mercy part ii

[Tyrion1991]

@Minijam

Sorry I didn't realise we had a hipster here.Talking about all of his dark fantasy.

Pedophilia is a serious issue and should be dealt with in criminal stories that mirror the tragedy of real life. It should not be written into a fantasy novel to serve a helping of sex, revenge and violence to the reader. It should not be written as entertainment. It cheapens the whole issue. All this chapter does is have Arya seduce the guy to kill him despite being 11. That's just as bad as other tasteless Japanese anime. The character is too young to do that kind of story. This is too serious and too sensitive a topic. Theres a reason why HBO aged the characters up.

[Northbound2.0]

Damnit. I broke my one rule, of not reading any of spolier chapters! As soon as I heard it was Arya, that went out the window. Did anyone notice the pace of the chapter? Short, to the point; but yet contained a lot of information. Don't know if it's any indication of if a lot of the other chatpers, being that way.

[TheCrannogDweller]

This was done with her "fruit knife", and the finishing move was done with the other blade, which I suppose is Needle.

It's noted that she has two blades - fruit knife and the "real" one that does not belong to her, like her other treasures - remember how the KM made her throw away all her treasures, and she kept only needle?

Didn't she hide Needle though? I seem to remember something about a loose stone on some steps.

Also, wouldn't Needle be too big to conceal in her sleeve? Because that's where the blade came from (I think).

Also, why would she pack Needle in her sleeve on that particular day? She didn't know that she would meet Raff.

[DrunkSister]

I noticed quite a few Brave Danny Flint references in this chapter on second read. It's really great. So much in here to talk about.

Haven't noticed any. Do tell.

This was done with her "fruit knife", and the finishing move was done with the other blade, which I suppose is Needle.

It's noted that she has two blades - fruit knife and the "real" one that does not belong to her, like her other treasures - remember how the KM made her throw away all her treasures, and she kept only needle?

But how would she cut through pants and artery with a fruit knife?!

“The laces,” he urged her. “Be a sweet girl and undo them.” Instead she slid her finger down along the inside of his thigh. He gave a grunt. “Damn, be careful there, you — “

Mercy gave a gasp and stepped away, her face confused and frightened. “You’re bleeding.”

“Wha — ” He looked down at himself. “Gods be good. What did you do to me, you little cunt?” The red stain spread across his thigh, soaking the heavy fabric.

.....

Raff the Sweetling looked up sharply as the long thin blade came sliding from her sleeve. She slipped it through his throat beneath the chin, twisted, and ripped it back out sideways with a single smooth slash. A fine red rain followed, and in his eyes the light went out.

My breakdown of how it went: she cuts him with a blade, hides it in her sleeve, stands there frightened while he bleeds out, then stabs him in the throat, twists and slashes out.

1) needle wouldn't fit in a sleeve, it is still a rapier, even if it is small.

2) I doubt she is so tall as to be able to use a rapier as a knife, I am just a bookworm and not learned in the art of sword fighting but IMO that motion looks like it was done sideways.

Thoughts?

ETA: added another part of the quote for clarity

@Minijam

Sorry I didn't realise we had a hipster here.Talking about all of his dark fantasy.

Pedophilia is a serious issue and should be dealt with in criminal stories that mirror the tragedy of real life. It should not be written into a fantasy novel to serve a helping of sex, revenge and violence to the reader. It should not be written as entertainment. It cheapens the whole issue. All this chapter does is have Arya seduce the guy to kill him despite being 11. That's just as bad as other tasteless Japanese anime. The character is too young to do that kind of story. This is too serious and too sensitive a topic. Theres a reason why HBO aged the characters up.

*eyeroll* fantasy is just not related to real life in any way... only serious stories have the right to deal with serious issues... ASoIaF is totally not a tragedy... there are no paralels to real life, historical or current in it...

And you did start so well with calling me names, I thought at least you'd be entertaining.

[Guest BigwigStandsHisGround]

But complaining that GRRM is writing things you don't like is a lot like saying that GRRM is your bitch. He is not.

Since a dissenting person has already been told to read another series and to keep their mouth shut if they haven't written their own book series, I suppose it was inevitable that someone bring up "GRRM is not your bitch".

Where others see gritty realism, I see, at best, gratuitous sex (much of it abusive) and, at worst, normalization of child rape. There are devices to accomplish character development other than rape or the threat of rape. This far into the series, it's almost as though rape is a crutch, the go-to move, and it's getting old.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

@Minijam

Sorry I didn't realise we had a hipster here.Talking about all of his dark fantasy.

Pedophilia is a serious issue and should be dealt with in criminal stories that mirror the tragedy of real life. It should not be written into a fantasy novel to serve a helping of sex, revenge and violence to the reader. It should not be written as entertainment. It cheapens the whole issue. All this chapter does is have Arya seduce the guy to kill him despite being 11. That's just as bad as other tasteless Japanese anime. The character is too young to do that kind of story. This is too serious and too sensitive a topic. Theres a reason why HBO aged the characters up.

Martin's series is based off the Middle Ages. Back in that time age of consent was not really an issue, so really he's being historically accurate. Your comparison to Japanese anime is ridiculous.

[ARYa_Nym]

I noticed quite a few Brave Danny Flint references in this chapter on second read. It's really great. So much in here to talk about.L

Like what?

I know at the "Arya" wedding Manderly asked for Danny's song to be played. I think he knew that Jeyne was fake because Arya said she'd been to White Harbor twice.

[MegaAIP]

shocking chapter and didn't expect it at all...

[alguien]

I've probably been reading the series before 95% of the board's members,

I... seriously doubt that.

In any event, all your posts read as though you're projecting something that wasn't there to justify your discomfort with the passage.

Arya wasn't enjoying the kiss, she was leading Raff on so she could kill him.

I thought it was a brilliantly creepy chapter and I loved it.

[Lyanna Stark]

John Reynolds,

One of the ways a man and woman can couple is sodomy. If a writer is going to write that male character X had sex with female character Y and "had her every way a man can have a woman" you're really reaching to exclude sodomy. In fact, my take is that GRRM was intentionally conveying sodomy to the reader with that line. Ohhh, Dany is under his spell, young girl with the hots for a bad boy, those blue forks in his beard, the way he twirls his thumbs over those breasty pommels. . .so so hot. Yes, we get it.

Sodomy? Are we living in the 50s? In the age of "50 Shades of Grey" where S&M sex is every day stuff, is this stuff really upsetting to anyone? I thought sodomy laws where abandoned some 40 years ago so why go back to the morality of a different generation?

If you think it's simply a "Dany is under his spell" then you've missed out on what is going on in ADWD. As Dr Pepper pointed out before, the sex scenes are there to convey something about the character, and in Dany's case, she is under a tremendous amount of pressure to stop the murders, she is under pressure to marry Hizdahr into what she knows will be an unhappy marriage, and she's struggling with submitting to a loveless marriage she does not want when she once before has been treated like cattle. Here she submits to selling herself, her body, into a marriage to salvage what she can for the people. Hence why she takes Daario as her lover before that, as one last thing that is her own before she submits to her unpleasant duty of marrying Hizdahr. Not to mention a mutlitude other nuances and details.

As for another poster's inability to read, when Arya slides her tongue on Raff's, she's reciprocating the kiss. This isn't complicated folks, and it's behavior wildly out of character for Arya unless there are intervening chapters (GRRM's teaser samples are usually among the first for a POV) we haven't seen yet. So the only explanations are the skin mask memories or House training. Either way, thanks for the pedo material. Like Bigwigstandshisground wrote, this is creepy stuff.

Let's look at the actual paragraph:

He grabbed her wrist. “I’ll do the teaching. Time for your first lesson.” He pulled her hard against him and kissed her on the lips, forcing his tongue into her mouth. It was all wet and slimy, like an eel. Mercy licked it with her own tongue, then broke away from him, breathless. “Not here. Someone might see. My room’s not far, but hurry. I have to be back before the second act, or I’ll miss my rape.”

It was all wet and slimy, like an eel. Does that sound like "Oh my well isn't this sexy time" to you? Her licking it and sounding breathless is clearly putting on an act, since she's trying to lure him on. Her own description of it sounds quite awful. Have you ever tried holding a live eel? They're disgusting.

Throughout Arya's chapter it's also clear her memories of the "real" Mercy is setting the tone for most of her thoughts and conversations.

Love Lyana's "read something else" knee-jerk reaction though. I've probably been reading the series before 95% of the board's members, have all the books signed in person, blah blah, but the minute you criticize a sample chapter a fanboy like that has to take that route.

:lol:

So having the books signed and having read the series before 95% of everyone else makes you automatically better at spotting how Things Really Are? I have first editions signed as well and I've been on the board for over a decade, that doesn't mean I am automatically Better than anyone else.

Besides, from your posts you probably haven't interacted a lot with other readers online, nor followed the discussions on here, for instance. Perhaps you should give it a try, it will give you some new insights. The Learning to Lead threads are excellent.

My main point stands though: You want the novels to be something they are not. If that is the case, you are probably better off reading something else.

BigwigStandsHisGround, on 27 Mar 2014 - 4:41 PM, said:

Since a dissenting person has already been told to read another series and to keep their mouth shut if they haven't written their own book series, I suppose it was inevitable that someone bring up "GRRM is not your bitch".

Where others see gritty realism, I see, at best, gratuitous sex (much of it abusive) and, at worst, normalization of child rape. There are devices to accomplish character development other than rape or the threat of rape. This far into the series, it's almost as though rape is a crutch, the go-to move, and it's getting old.

Weird. Nobody is actually getting raped, on in real danger of getting raped in this chapter. There is absolutely no gratuitous sex at all, only Arya using Raff's weakness against him.

The fact that girls and women are threatened by sexual predators is nothing revolutionary in itself, and in most cases I think it's well handled. It's not like the woman of ASOIAF are constantly in danger of getting raped and are constantly saved from it. In that case it would be a plot crutch, but now I can't see that it is. Which instances in particular are you thinking of?

[Danelle]

Damnit. I broke my one rule, of not reading any of spolier chapters! As soon as I heard it was Arya, that went out the window. Did anyone notice the pace of the chapter? Short, to the point; but yet contained a lot of information. Don't know if it's any indication of if a lot of the other chatpers, being that way.

I agree about the pace, it is faster but this might be connected to Arya's development and the fact that she is now accustomed in life in Braavos and as a member of the FM.

I am not a big Arya fan, and I found her chapters in FFC and DWD boring, but this chapter far more interesting for me.

[FittleLinger]

Didn't she hide Needle though? I seem to remember something about a loose stone on some steps.

Also, wouldn't Needle be too big to conceal in her sleeve? Because that's where the blade came from (I think).

Also, why would she pack Needle in her sleeve on that particular day? She didn't know that she would meet Raff.

Haven't noticed any. Do tell.

But how would she cut through pants and artery with a fruit knife?!

“The laces,” he urged her. “Be a sweet girl and undo them.” Instead she slid her finger down along the inside of his thigh. He gave a grunt. “Damn, be careful there, you — “

Mercy gave a gasp and stepped away, her face confused and frightened. “You’re bleeding.”

“Wha — ” He looked down at himself. “Gods be good. What did you do to me, you little cunt?” The red stain spread across his thigh, soaking the heavy fabric.

.....

Raff the Sweetling looked up sharply as the long thin blade came sliding from her sleeve. She slipped it through his throat beneath the chin, twisted, and ripped it back out sideways with a single smooth slash. A fine red rain followed, and in his eyes the light went out.

My breakdown of how it went: she cuts him with a blade, hides it in her sleeve, stands there frightened while he bleeds out, then stabs him in the throat, twists and slashes out.

1) needle wouldn't fit in a sleeve, it is still a rapier, even if it is small.

2) I doubt she is so tall as to be able to use a rapier as a knife, I am just a bookworm and not learned in the art of sword fighting but IMO that motion looks like it was done sideways.

Thoughts?

ETA: added another part of the quote for clarity

*eyeroll* fantasy is just not related to real life in any way... only serious stories have the right to deal with serious issues... ASoIaF is totally not a tragedy... there are no paralels to real life, historical or current in it...

And you did start so well with calling me names, I thought at least you'd be entertaining.

I agree that the size of Needle is a good point against. Still, everything else seems to fit.

Crannog Dweller - she hid Needle beneath a loose stepstone outside the house of B&W. Nothing stops her from retrieving it when leaving to Izembaro.

Also, she might be packing Needle everytime she leaves her room. Or, if she had another assignment, she could've got it with this intention.

Mirijam, it's not impossible to pierce an artery from point blank with the fruit knife. Also, the "thin long blade" fits with Needle.

Finally, why would she make the point of it not being Mercy's like her other treasures (the treasures were a silver spoon etc that the sailors of the ship gave her upon arrival in Braavos).

We know she had a second blade, whether she used it or not. Why wouldn't it belong to Mercy if it was just a random blade and not needle?

[alguien]

I think it's what makes the chapter, and its setting, so ironic. She's become a role far more than any of the other characters who ended up with "role" names as their chapter headings, and there's layers of irony in the way that what she's acting is an actress who is going to act out the role of Sansa or something like it (yet more layers of removal from her "real" self, and yet at the same time closer to her real self because at least she lived through some of what the play recounts), and yet it all ends with an elaborate return to an incontestable bit of Arya's modus operandi and drives.

This is a great point and I'm off to reread the chapter with that in mind now. :)

[Pliskin]

Since a dissenting person has already been told to read another series and to keep their mouth shut if they haven't written their own book series, I suppose it was inevitable that someone bring up "GRRM is not your bitch".

Where others see gritty realism, I see, at best, gratuitous sex (much of it abusive) and, at worst, normalization of child rape. There are devices to accomplish character development other than rape or the threat of rape. This far into the series, it's almost as though rape is a crutch, the go-to move, and it's getting old.

Yeah, and when people see blood in fiction, they see gritty realism, I see at best gratuitous violence and normalization/encouragement of killing your neighbor.

Please.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Back reading this thread makes me wonder how many people think Arya will be dead by the end of the series and vice versa. She's definitely walking down a dangerous path, but no one is more prepared to deal with death than her. I think she'll still be alive at the end, but I'm biased since she's my favorite character.

[TheCrannogDweller]

My breakdown of how it went: she cuts him with a blade, hides it in her sleeve, stands there frightened while he bleeds out, then stabs him in the throat, twists and slashes out.

1) needle wouldn't fit in a sleeve, it is still a rapier, even if it is small.

2) I doubt she is so tall as to be able to use a rapier as a knife, I am just a bookworm and not learned in the art of sword fighting but IMO that motion looks like it was done sideways.

Thoughts?

Your breakdown looks reasonable, but FittleLinger may actually be right. Two things:

1. "Last of all she threw her cloak across her shoulders. It was a real mummer’s cloak, purple wool lined in red silk, with a hood to keep the rain off, and three secret pockets too. She’d hid some coins in one of those, an iron key in another, a blade in the last. A real blade, not a fruit knife like the one on her hip, but it did not belong to Mercy, no more than her other treasures did."

2. "Raff the Sweetling looked up sharply as the long thin blade came sliding from her sleeve."

<snip>

I still don't understand how Needle would fit in her sleeve or why would she carry it with her all the time, but the "long thin blade" which "did not belong to Mercy" definitely alludes to something strange going on.

Although, obviously, it could be just wishful thinking and the blade might simply be a tool she took from the temple - which would also fit the not-belonging-to-Mercy point.

[Lord Varys]

On Arya's attitude to sex:

Come on, guys, she has been dead inside for quite some time now. The very thought of Arya ever falling in love with somebody, let alone have a normal relationship with anyone is ridiculous. There was a short time frame in which she could have turned her back on the future she is now heading towards, I'd say from the time she killed that poor Bolton man in Harrenhal up to her abandoning Sandor and deciding to go to Braavos. Perhaps even as long as she still had the choice to leave the House of Black and White.

But even then, Arya would have remained a traumatized child/woman all her life. After Harrenhal - and her murdering the innocent guard there - it became very difficult for her to imagine seeing and living with her mother and brother again. One can only imagine how difficult (or outright impossible) it would have been for to continue her life as 'Lady Arya Stark', a life she was not exactly looking forward to back during AGoT.

More importantly, Arya witnessed sexual activities and sexual violence, and was exposed to sexual abuse herself (threats, possibly sexual motivated punishments conducted by Weese and the good wife sisters/lovers (?) in Harrenhal.

Arya fretting over 'pedo sex' and not trying to use the sexual cravings of her victims (or other people) against them is exactly what a character as deranged as she would do. She is deeply traumatized and very perceptive, and she learned what it meant to be a helpless attractive woman back in KL, Harrenhal, and later on as Cat of the Canals in Braavos.

As far as I can tell we don't know how old Mercy is in the story. It's hinted at, that Arya wears another face, which means that 'Mercy may have the body of 13-15 year-old. There are women grown who don't have big breasts, after all. As far as I remember there was no hint whatsoever in the books that Raff was a pedophile. If there had been a pedophile among Gregor's men, Arya should have caught his eye back when she was with Gregor's men.

As to Dany and Daario's sex life: Are we really discussing here whether anal sex is a 'good' or 'accepted' sexual practice? Really? In an international board in the 21st century?

[Baelor Swyft]

I thought the other blade -- the one that didn't belong to Mercy -- was given to her by the Faceless Men. When she donned Mercy's face she donned her possessions as well, but the blade was given to her by the FM to fulfill whatever purpose she has been given in this guise. My guess, anyway.

To the comments that this is out of character for Arya, I can certainly see where they're coming from, but I disagree. In addition to what she may be getting from Mercy's innate shadow, we're also coming to Arya a good ways passed where we last saw her. In her mummers' troupe she is learning new ways of interacting, and by the time the chapter starts they have already become commonplace to her. So it is no surprise that these things are natural for her now. It may seems sudden for the reader, but for the character the progression has been at a regular pace. Look at the way the lecherous dwarf character treats her -- clearly she's amid this kind of activity in her troupe. She even compares how he treated her and how Raff did -- they used the same move. So she's naturally aware of these things enough to use it against Raff.

[Chebyshov]

"She’d hid some coins in one of those, an iron key in another, a blade in the last. A real blade, not a fruit knife like the one on her hip, but it did not belong to Mercy, no more than her other treasures did. The fruit knife belonged to Mercy. She was made for eating fruit, for smiling and joking, for working hard and doing as she was told."

She may have had the fruit knife up her sleeve (don't see how a rapier could fit up it), but she was definitely packing Needle.

[Timcom]

Thought it was a good chapter, in which there was a lot of information.

I think that Arya/Mercy is playing the role of Sansa in the play, rather than Shae. I really doubt anyone in Braavos either would know or care about Shae, while the daughter of Eddard Stark would be well known, especially in the light of her mysterious disappearance and formerly being the "official" heir Winterfell.

I don't think Harys Swyft is going to make it back from Braavos. Either he won't return to Westeros by choice (who'd go back to civil war and Cersei?) or will end up dying there. I think it's pretty clear his negotiations with the Iron Bank won't end up going too well either.

Also it mentions that Tywin Lannister went to Lys under the reign of Aerys II, so it would seem that he did know where whores go after all.