Balon attacking the North

[TheWanderer]

He didn't ask for a crown. He already had it. Tywin also states that Cersei should re-marry, putting Balons name forward as a suggestion.

I personally see very little difference between being given a crown and being allowed to keep one. Robb offered to let him crown himself and then help him keep it. Balon spat all over that deal, then crowned himself and begged Tywin to let him keep it. That's not smart.

The North has always quarrelled with the North.

They quarrel so much that the North doesn't even have a fleet, and hasn't for hundreds of years? They quarrel so much that the North doesn't have castles on its western coast? What exactly is your evidence of this ancient enmity between the two regions?

On the other hand, if the war for the IT resulted in total chaos, he'd be sitting pretty with the Iron Isles and the North.

What makes you think he could've held the North?

As the latter books have shown us there are still quite a lot of fighting men left in the North, from the mountain clans to Manderly. And then there's Robb's large and seasoned army coming back North. Moat Cailin's never been taken from the south but it's never had to be taken by Northmen before. It's obvious that the biggest danger to seiging isn't the fortifications themselves but rather the Cragonnmen, and they are firmly on Robb's side. And then there's winter. Winter is coming, can any invading force hold the North once the snows come? I doubt it.

[MyLittleFinger]

People attacking Casterly Rock is impossible, so says every bleeding character in the books/world other than Robb in the show...which was moronic besides. It along with Winterfell/Storm's End/Eyrie are known as the most impregnable fortresses if defended. The former only falling due to no defenses (Theon was brilliant in his move and knew the place) and through sorcery and maybe some kind of brilliant super move by Jon Con (Killing Penrose). The Rock could take years to defeat itself, and with Tywin knowing this, it gives him the freedom to parade about and get the entire rest of his alliance on board with him. Joff is the King, the rightful king in this scenario, he is the legitimate ruler not a Lannister bastard. Reader knowledge means nothing to the characters in the books.

[Lord Reaver]

What makes you think he could've held the North?

He holds the Neck and has the most powerful fleet. He has more and better soldiers than what remains in the north.

The crannogmen only dared do anything after Victarion left with most of his troops, leaving only a skeleton crew. The're not really a threat to the Ironborn in force.

The rest of the North would fall, one stronghold at a time, as Balon stated.

[Frey Pie]

Both plans that were put forward (crown himself and attack the West or crown himself and attack the North) had flaws and risks. There isn't really an obviously better choice like many people seem to believe, and the path he chose does not make Balon an idiot

But the best play would be to put off the independence stuff and swear fealty to one of the Iron Throne contenders in exchange for land. The increased wealth and power from that conquest could be used in a fight for independence later

I agree. If he sat on his hands for a bit and declared for the winner just before they won, joined in in a battle or two, then Balon could have gotten some serious thanks

Surely you can see thought that of the choices he had, and keeping his goal of independence and a crown in mind, that attacking the north and completely alienating all possible allies was ludicrous?

[TheDoomOfValyria]

I agree with alot of the posts that the decision on who to attack was closer than some people will acknowledge. Alot of peoples love for the starks blinds them to this fact. However, even if things were dead even on who to attack, Balon was also going to go North because of petty hatred.

And there is no way he could have held the north. Even if he took the Neck from the Craggonmen. The north, similiar to Russia during Winter, is to large with far too sparce of resources. Furthermore, even if it was taken, you can avoid the neck by taking ships to White Harbor. Granted this would take longer.

[MyaStoned]

It was war. Of course the IB unleashed the Old Way. Rape and pillage happens just as much when the greenlanders wage war.

Fighting back doesn't include invading and subjugating, that's an aggressive move, if the greenlanders had just defended themselves against raids, they would have stopped (as they did in the real world) because they would cost more than they would give.

Wars =/= raiding.

Wars, at least in Westeros as we know it, are mutual. And your assertion that if they'd defended themselves (obviously they did), they'd have stopped, is ludicrous. Raiders, thieves and pirates do not do cost-benefit analyses. They never have and never will. If they had, in our world they would be at work instead of in jail. Over and over again in jail.

Your comment there shows no familiarity with real life or the real world, or how things actually are. Just no common sense. I mean we have thieving HERE, on earth. We have a society that fights back against it, harshly, making the cost far greater than the benefit. Look to it. What happens here on earth? Does thieving stop?

[Fat King Robert]

I personally see very little difference between being given a crown and being allowed to keep one. Robb offered to let him crown himself and then help him keep it. Balon spat all over that deal, then crowned himself and begged Tywin to let him keep it. That's not smart.

Balon didn't have any ambition for the southern lands. It was basically a "you mind yourself to the south and we'll keep us to ourselves" deal. Again, you've got it wrong. Robb offered him a crown, meaning that Robb would give him a crown if they fought together. Again, this was not for Robb to give. I don't know where you got the "begged Tywin" to keep the crown from.

They quarrel so much that the North doesn't even have a fleet, and hasn't for hundreds of years? They quarrel so much that the North doesn't have castles on its western coast? What exactly is your evidence of this ancient enmity between the two regions?

The bear islands used to belong to the ironborn, but they lost it after a wrestling match. A certain Stark won the iron islands from them. We also have the conflict between Dagon Greyjoy and the north. To name a few.

[Lord Reaver]

Your comment there shows no familiarity with real life or the real world, or how things actually are. Just no common sense. I mean we have thieving HERE, on earth. We have a society that fights back against it, harshly, making the cost far greater than the benefit. Look to it. What happens here on earth? Does thieving stop?

Haha, that's hilarious. Let me spell it out for you: A nation is not a person. They don't operate by the same methods or according to the same rules at all. If that is too hard for you to grasp, I think you'd better stick to reading chldren's literature.

The issue aren't single pirates. Every region has those, it's not just the Ironborn. There's pirates off the stepstones, and there's pirates off the fingers. The issue here is full-scale reaving by an entire region. And that does not operate by the same rules as your average drug addicted felon. I'm sorry, but you're comparing apples with skyscrapers here.

Furthermore your comments show no familiarity with the actual historical reality of the cultures the Ironborn are (loosely) based on. The Norse stopped attacking their neighbours when it became more rewarding to instead trade with them AND it became too risky to simply attack them. Not a few raids simply ended with them being paid off with a sum. Eventually all the raids ended and they joined the rest of Europe in "normal" relations.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Problem was, at the point in time when Balon attacked the north, there are several strong contenders for the crown. Swearing himself to any one of those is risky.

Crowning himself gives him the possibility to take land and then, if one of the claimants have come out on top, sue for either a peace or a fealty.

After all, kings knelt to the Iron Throne before, it's not unreasonable to expect that might happen again.

On the other hand, if the war for the IT resulted in total chaos, he'd be sitting pretty with the Iron Isles and the North.

I don't think declaring for their rival is any more likely to piss off the winner than declaring independence. If Balon declared for Joffrey and attacked either the North or the Reach, and then Renly won, he could always say he was just being loyal to the rightful King. Renly, as a "younger Robert", would pardon him just like Robert pardoned the Tyrells and Martells after his rebellion.

On the other hand he's less likely to receive mercy from Tywin if he declares for Renly and attacks the West, but it isn't impossible, seeing as the Crown pardoned the Tyrells and many of Stannis's bannermen. And a Renly victory was the best bet anyway in ACOK

I don't see why he'd ever declare for Stannis (rigid, not likely to reward you, former enemy, weakest contender) so I'm leaving that out

Surely you can see thought that of the choices he had, and keeping his goal of independence and a crown in mind, that attacking the north and completely alienating all possible allies was ludicrous?

Well I understand the tactical(?) reasons for hitting the North - it was a very ripe target with the main force gone, their hostage returned, and Moat Cailin. But Robb's offer complicates things politically, because now Balon is attacking the only faction that wants to align with and support him.

So geo-strategically, attacking the North and declaring independence was a very flawed plan. I don't think it was necessarily ludicrous, however, since the Tyrells and their bannermen were willing to let him keep the North in ASOS and Tywin even briefly considered it.

[Lord Damian]

Balon's gains by attacking the North looked good on a map paper but he really had no eventual chance to hold onto it. IT was also worthless to him except for lumber to build more ships but that takes time. Balon went North out of spite and revenge. Revenge on a kingdom that successfully repulsed HIS act of war against them 8 years prior. Oh my, the thought of it. Balon was fucked and he is dead. Good ridance.

[Fat King Robert]

Balon's gains by attacking the North looked good on a map paper but he really had no eventual chance to hold onto it. IT was also worthless to him except for lumber to build more ships but that takes time. Balon went North out of spite and revenge. Revenge on a kingdom that successfully repulsed HIS act of war against them 8 years prior. Oh my, the thought of it. Balon was fucked and he is dead. Good ridance.

To be fair, he could initiate trade with Braavos. As mentioned before, it would be possible for them to hold the North - it would be tough though, there's no denying that. Imagine if the IB would be able to hold the north long enough for a wildling invasion to happen. That's a whole different story though.

Also, it wasn't just the north that fought against the IB - it was the stormlands and crownlands as well.

Balon is dead because the Drowned God needed a strong oarsman! :commie:

[Sullen]

Balon was stupid. His beat chance for independence was allying with the Starks, and then after defeating the Lannisters they could deal with their own issues. Instead he attacked the 1 person who wwas remotely on his side. He's dumber than a box of rocks. His petty issues with the Starks cost the Starks and himself the war, since just fighting the Starks never would have granted the II independence.

Independence shouldn't have the goal, that's where he was stupid.

Under no circumstances can the Ironborn be independent, the IT will never allow it, and the day they decide to crush the Ironborn the North will be nowhere to protect their "allies".

Balon should have attacked the North in the name of the Iron Throne (never specifying which King) and ask to keep the coasts he captured to give them to his lords.

[Lord Reaver]

Under no circumstances can the Ironborn be independent, the IT will never allow it, and the day they decide to crush the Ironborn the North will be nowhere to protect their "allies".

Thank you. Finally someone who realizes just how utterly useless the North would have been as allies for Balon. They have no fleet. What are they going to do for Balon once the royal fleet comes along ? He's better off using the North's resources himself to strengthen his own armies.

But yes, against a unified IT, the Ironborn could never win. Thing is, Balon kept hoping that the IT would fracture into warring kingdoms. He did so in his first rebellion, and apparently he kept hoping for that during the Wo5K.

[Jasta11]

Furthermore your comments show no familiarity with the actual historical reality of the cultures the Ironborn are (loosely) based on. The Norse stopped attacking their neighbours when it became more rewarding to instead trade with them AND it became too risky to simply attack them. Not a few raids simply ended with them being paid off with a sum. Eventually all the raids ended and they joined the rest of Europe in "normal" relations.

Yet the Ironborn aren't Norse. They're a caricature of Norse vikings taken to the extreme, with a Cthulu cult sprinkled on in case them being evil wasn't obvious enough. The Norse reaved for a relatively short amount of time, and mostly stopped as soon as they got good land. But the Old Way is alive and well after thousands of years, including a period during which the IB held a significant part of the mainland. It seems they never settled in the parts they conquered eiter, unlike the Norse. So your logic is pretty hollow. Reaving is a cultural thing for the IB, it's what they do, going to far as to disdain you if you obtained something without ripping it out of a dead person's hands. The ''greenlanders'' has fought back, hell that's what the putting down of Balon's rebellion was all about. Yet they still yearn for those days. It's a special kind of victim blaming you practice here.

As for Balon, he just couldn't make up his mind. Want to fuck over the Starks because reasons? Fine, attack them, even if it brings you close to nothing in concrete terms, as everyone else but you (oh, and Victarion) understands. Want to ally with the Lannisters? By all means, send them a letter, they need all the help they can get during the first half of Clash. Want to become independant? All right, crown yourself and let the ''greenlanders'' have at it, the weaker they are, the easier it will be for you to retain your crown.

But Balon ''me smash'' Greyjoy cares not for notions as foolish and cowardly as ''good planning'' and ''consistency''. So let's do all three of these things at once, even if it's utterly counter-productive in the medium and long term. Let's piss off the Starks by attacking them, alienate the rest of Westeros by crowning yourself, and forgo any deals with the Lannisters by doing what they want you to do anyway. Pure. Effing. Genius. I assume much chest-thumping followed this train of thought.

[The Frosted King]

Thank you. Finally someone who realizes just how utterly useless the North would have been as allies for Balon. They have no fleet. What are they going to do for Balon once the royal fleet comes along ? He's better off using the North's resources himself to strengthen his own armies.

But yes, against a unified IT, the Ironborn could never win. Thing is, Balon kept hoping that the IT would fracture into warring kingdoms. He did so in his first rebellion, and apparently he kept hoping for that during the Wo5K.

This is why people feel Balon was an idiot.

If he hopes the kingdoms split into warring powers, why in gods grey graces would he help one of the consolidating factions?

Rather than the only other guy calling for independence?

And i wish people would stop separating Balon and his crown in order to make his plans plausible.

He wants to be king because he feels superior to the soft greenlanders.

You feel a guy with that kinda superiority complex is going to ask permission from Kingslanding?

Thats like saying Catelyn could've been alright if she were cool with only her and Robb going home to Winterfell.

That's not how she's built.

[Dany Girl]

Independence shouldn't have the goal, that's where he was stupid.

Under no circumstances can the Ironborn be independent, the IT will never allow it, and the day they decide to crush the Ironborn the North will be nowhere to protect their "allies".

Balon should have attacked the North in the name of the Iron Throne (never specifying which King) and ask to keep the coasts he captured to give them to his lords.

I mostly agree, independence was a stupid goal. But the North would eventually need a fleet if they're going to stay independent and White Harbor is a very large port (but I think on the wrong side of the country).

Balon had basically the following logical choices:

-Team with Robb and gain mutual independence, and hope that they come to help if needed

-fight the North, but do not crown yourself. That way whomever wins you can say, "hey, I had your back"

- crown yourself, but do nothing. Do not raid anyone. Keep your men close and arm the shit out of your land. Make it so eventually if the ultimate winner decides to come for you after the fighting is done, it won't be easy. Establish ties to Braavos in the meantime, you're gonna need supplies.

[Lord Reaver]

Yet the Ironborn aren't Norse. They're a caricature of Norse vikings taken to the extreme, with a Cthulu cult sprinkled on in case them being evil wasn't obvious enough. The Norse reaved for a relatively short amount of time, and mostly stopped as soon as they got good land. But the Old Way is alive and well after thousands of years, including a period during which the IB held a significant part of the mainland. It seems they never settled in the parts they conquered eiter, unlike the Norse. So your logic is pretty hollow. Reaving is a cultural thing for the IB, it's what they do, going to far as to disdain you if you obtained something without ripping it out of a dead person's hands. The ''greenlanders'' has fought back, hell that's what the putting down of Balon's rebellion was all about. Yet they still yearn for those days. It's a special kind of victim blaming you practice here.

That's why I said they were loosely based on them...

The Old Way is far from "alive and well". Euron Greyjoy is said to be the only person still living by it. Balon has it as an ideal. You taking that and making it something that all Ironborn live by falls on it's face when faced with the realities: The Ironborn can no longer reave in any large scale. Yet they still have things. Clearly they obtain these in other ways than taking it out of a dead person's hands.

It is in fact you who are victim blaming. Aegon the Conqueror subjugated the Iron Islands, took away significant lands and forbade their culture and a main source of income without replacing it with anything. Putting down Balon's rebellion was about continuing this subjugation, nothing else.

Of course the Ironborn yearn for the days of the Old Ways. Aegon reduced them to a miserable lifestyle with his cultural imperialism. Anyone would do the same if put in their position.

[House Morrissey]

I don't think that Balon made the best decision but I definitely think that he made a relateable one.

If the 16 year old son of your enemy came up to you and said "You want to be king? I'll GIVE you this crown. Now help me." you might take offense and reject the offer. Especially living in a culture where "the iron price" is a concept.

[Sullen]

Balon had basically the following logical choices:

-Team with Robb and gain mutual independence, and hope that they come to help if needed

-fight the North, but do not crown yourself. That way whomever wins you can say, "hey, I had your back"

- crown yourself, but do nothing. Do not raid anyone. Keep your men close and arm the shit out of your land. Make it so eventually if the ultimate winner decides to come for you after the fighting is done, it won't be easy. Establish ties to Braavos in the meantime, you're gonna need supplies.

1st choice: They can't really come though, as you pointed out, the North doesn't have a fleet and White Harbour is on the other side of the continent. They couldn't really hold any new lands either, as the Throne will always try to take them back. As Asha said, what the Ironborn need is new lands to settle on, not plunder.

2nd choice: That's the choice I'd go with, they simply need to pray that whoever wins the Throne doesn't begrudge them.

3rd choice: Least destructive and risky if you ask me, a alliance with Braavos (with anyone, really) is kind of off the table, they are isolated on the West side of the known world and they have nothing of note to trade.

[The Frosted King]

The north doesn't need a fleet on its west coast to defend the ironborn.

Robb Stark sitting pretty holding both the north and riverlands is a shield for Balon better than any fleet of great number.

The much bigger target will always be the guy taking half the kingdom.

Robb Stark was the big fish.

After the red wedding, the council considered the war basically won.

That alone tells you where the squid rank in terms of impact.

The second option is likely fruitless, as once the fat lady starts singing, if the north bends the knee, they're likely welcomed back into the good graces without too steep a punishment, aside from increased taxation for a period.

They're rightfully derided as scum by the mainland.

Whoever wins the throne would merely look at them over an elevated nose, and tell them they better be glad they're allowing them to skulk back to their scummy rocks at all.

Balons plan on the whole was shit.