[TWOW Spoilers] March 2014 Chapter Part III

[RoamingRonin]

Phario Forel just seems like a poke from GRRM. I think he's going to do that a lot in the next two books.

[Faint]

IDK, it's awesome that Arya stumbled into Raff and go her revenge, but I don't get the point of this chapter in the 'big picture.' Was it "Arya's revenge that also gets her expelled from the FM and she can move on to something else (Dany or back to Westeros)"? Or was it a cool chapter that didn't have anything to do with Arya moving forward?

There are multiple avenues of possibility. It might also serve a combination of factors, which is the answer I favor. On a purely logistical level, the delegation from Westeros could potentially serve as a means by which Arya makes it be back to King's Landing (whether on the orders of the Faceless Men or not). Her killing Raff specifically is also quite the plot mover. Not only does it violate the rules of her order, and therefore endanger her continuing on as an apprentice, but it also, just as importantly, reinforces that whatever her disguise and training, a big part of Arya Stark remains.

Also, if one wants to go with the notion that Arya remains fixated on her list, which the balance of evidence overwhelmingly suggests to be the case, then Arya might get to thinking that infiltrating Harys Swyft's retinue is her best chance at getting at Dusen, Meryn Trent, Illyn Payne and Cersei Lannister. Dusen, actually, is probably in Braavos right now.

[yolkboy]

Regarding the noted lack of lemon trees in Braavos, that has been further highlighted in the sample. This seemingly conflicts with Dany's memory of a lemon tree in the House with the Red Door.

This came up in a thread, and this was the best conclusion IMO.

So we're told there's no trees at all in Braavos. But the key line might be here.

Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty.

So there are trees, and presumably lemon trees, in the courtyards of the mighty. The suggestion from Dr Pepper was that the likeliest candidate here is the Sealord's Palace - the mightiest in Braavos. He oversaw the Targ marriage pact - and seems plausible this was at the House with the Red Door.

We can't be sure of the timelines here, but it's very possible Dany and Syrio have met. Given 'knives come out' at the end of a Sealords life (and the tenure of the First Sword), perhaps Syrio helped Dany and Viserys to escape - this would fit his character as we know from a similar occurrence with Arya.

Again DP pointed out that Vis was paranoid about 'knives' after him - and we know from GoT that Robert seemed not to have sent any prior to wineseller. So perhaps the knives the beggar Targ was scared of were in fact nothing to do with him, but a natural result of the Sealord dying. It would suit Vis to personalise, with his arrogance and paranoia, an attack that was never specifically aimed at him.

[butterbumps!]

Whitering Said:

Maybe when this is all over GRRM will explain this somehow. Brusco and his daughters certainly seemed surprised when she popped back up and then she was running a route she almost never ran in her earlier stint, which means Arya probably told him she needed to and he agreed. That leads to the belief that Brusco does know who she works with. But how in the world do you keep it secret that you have any ties to the FM? Gossip is the first order of business in that neck of the woods (meaning the area by the docks). Does he have to keep it secret? They just hang out at a temple in the city and everyone knows where it is and nobody seems to care. It's weird.

It kind of is, right? Well, the main reason I thought it was something a number of people-- if not the general Braavosi populace entirely-- knew about, is the way the people on the Titan's Daughter react to Arya. Not only does the captain know excatly what that coin means immediately, but the crew all come up to her, making sure she knows their names, because this way, she'd not be able to kill them, and to state that they're doing their "service" (though, I think some of the crew also kept purposeful distance, too).

I kind of wonder if part of being a Braavosi comes with the requirement of "serving" the Stranger-- like, the idea that at some point you're going to be called upon to do a service is just something all Braavosi take as part of that culture or something. If this is true, then cultural silence about strange events someone might be able to tie to the FM would be a type of omerta, especially if the FM organization is sanctioned by (or even part of) the overall justice system of the region. If this is the way it works-- that all Braavosi citizens will be called upon one day for service to the Stranger-- then I suppose that any odd murder might be suspected as FM-based, but there's a cultural incentive to not speak about it.

Of course, this could be completely wrong.

You know, "Snow White" is one of the fairy tales I have examined for a long time, including the oldest versions, and I would say that of the parallels between the tale and Sansa’s arc, the most relevant one is the conflict with the Queen figure which underscores the negative effects of a patriarchal statu quo; nowhere have I read that Little Snow White slept through her own rape. Nowhere. Much less in the Grimms’ original versions (plural) which I’ve read in German too, and have many “rewrites.” So I believe you have it completely wrong here: the original versions of the tale are grittier and darker, true, but it doesn’t include what you’ve just claimed. Not the versions of the Grimm Brothers, not even in the allegedly “real-life” inspiration for the tale, and cannot be found either in the Greco-Roman mythopoeia from which we can trace the plotline..

I think you’ve gotten your facts confused, if there’s a famous fairy tale in whose original version the princess is raped whilst unconscious, it’s “Sleeping Beauty” and it’s by Charles Perrault, by the way, and it has little to insignificant relevance for Sansa’s arc.

I thought there might have been a quasi-necrophilia component suggested in the gritty version, whereby the Prince retrieves sleeping Snow White in her glass coffin, and brings the whole thing back to his castle, for some unstated, though undoubtedly deviant, purpose. It's been a while for me though-- am I misremembering that the prince brings her to his castle in her "dead" state?

I agree though, Sleeping Beauty is the one I thought of in terms of "sleeping through one's own rape."

[tze]

I like the idea that perhaps Izembaro, Brusco, and the like are all retired (or current) Faceless Men. There could be a tiny hint here:

“The King of Westeros is sending his envoy to do homage to the King of the Mummers tonight,” he told his troupe. “We will not disappoint our fellow monarch.”

“We?” said the Snapper, who did all the costumes for the mummers. “Is there more than one of him, now?”

On the surface it's a riff on the "royal we" idea, but given the way Arya sometimes thinks of Mercy as a separate person, it could be a subtle hint that "Izembaro" is also two people. (There also could be a small hint in the idea that Izembaro has recently started becoming obsessed with playing kings. A change in attitude could indicate that the real Izembaro has been switched out with a FM, somewhat like how the FM who replaced Pate introduced himself as "Pate, like the pig boy", even though the real Pate hated the "pig boy" association.) I didn't see any clues that Brusco was more than he seemed, but maybe someone else has seen something I haven't.

I think you’ve gotten your facts confused, if there’s a famous fairy tale in whose original version the princess is raped whilst unconscious, it’s “Sleeping Beauty” and it’s by Charles Perrault, by the way, and it has little to insignificant relevance for Sansa’s arc.

I am actually well aware of that. I realized my mistake after the thread had been locked, so I couldn't go in and edit my post. I was meaning to do a correction, but the forum's been wonky.

[ARYa_Nym]

If Shadowcat comes back in here were you talking about Mercedene ->Mercedes?

Edmond Dantès (born 1796): A sailor with good prospects, engaged to Mercédès. After his transformation into the Count of Monte Cristo, he reveals his true name to his enemies as each revenge is completed. During the course of the novel, he falls in love with Haydee.

The Count of Monte Cristo: The identity Dantès assumes when he emerges from prison and inherits his vast fortune. As a result, the Count of Monte Cristo is usually associated with a coldness and bitterness that comes from an existence based solely on revenge.

Mercédès Mondego (née Herrera): Edmond Dantès' lover and fiancée at the beginning of the story. She later marries Fernand and has a son with him, Albert. Despite being Fernand's wife, she remains in love with Edmond.

On brackish vs. green water theory I wonder if that means she does get involved in the second Dance. If she sees Varys again she should be around the greens.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I thought Arya, errrrrrrr Mercy, says that The Gate has been there for at least 20 years. I have the story's page open on GRRM's site, if anyone is still having trouble, I could check for specifics while I'm around.

I think the Gate has been in that location for some time (time enough for the building to settle, it's noted the ground settles more each year) but it's the Ship that has been at its present location for twenty years. The implication is that the Gate has been there for much less than that.

[Pod The Impaler]

Whitering Said:

It kind of is, right? Well, the main reason I thought it was something a number of people-- if not the general Braavosi populace entirely-- knew about, is the way the people on the Titan's Daughter react to Arya. Not only does the captain know excatly what that coin means immediately, but the crew all come up to her, making sure she knows their names, because this way, she'd not be able to kill them, and to state that they're doing their "service" (though, I think some of the crew also kept purposeful distance, too).

I kind of wonder if part of being a Braavosi comes with the requirement of "serving" the Stranger-- like, the idea that at some point you're going to be called upon to do a service is just something all Braavosi take as part of that culture or something. If this is true, then cultural silence about strange events someone might be able to tie to the FM would be a type of omerta, especially if the FM organization is sanctioned by (or even part of) the overall justice system of the region

I think they know enough to not mess with them, and to treat the bearer of the coin as someone with some ... worth? authority ?

In any case, if a favour is given to them, and a name is known, it affords some protection in a city where rivalries run to blood, and they seem to be an omnipresent force.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Wow. Finally found some time to read it. Such a great chapter.

A lot of great stuff going on! Her hit list just got shorter. Is Izembaro a fool or what? And why are they still caring so much about Cersei (apparently)?

[Florina Laufeyson]

Phario Forel just seems like a poke from GRRM. I think he's going to do that a lot in the next two books.

Agreed.

Regarding the noted lack of lemon trees in Braavos, that has been further highlighted in the sample. This seemingly conflicts with Dany's memory of a lemon tree in the House with the Red Door.

This came up in a thread, and this was the best conclusion IMO.

So we're told there's no trees at all in Braavos. But the key line might be here.

So there are trees, and presumably lemon trees, in the courtyards of the mighty. The suggestion from Dr Pepper was that the likeliest candidate here is the Sealord's Palace - the mightiest in Braavos. He oversaw the Targ marriage pact - and seems plausible this was at the House with the Red Door.

We can't be sure of the timelines here, but it's very possible Dany and Syrio have met. Given 'knives come out' at the end of a Sealords life (and the tenure of the First Sword), perhaps Syrio helped Dany and Viserys to escape - this would fit his character as we know from a similar occurrence with Arya.

Again DP pointed out that Vis was paranoid about 'knives' after him - and we know from GoT that Robert seemed not to have sent any prior to wineseller. So perhaps the knives the beggar Targ was scared of were in fact nothing to do with him, but a natural result of the Sealord dying. It would suit Vis to personalise, with his arrogance and paranoia, an attack that was never specifically aimed at him.

Oh hey! This is good. Real good. Not sure about the whole Syrio business but the Sealord hosting Dany or on his lands seems plausible.

Yo, i dont think Izembaro is a Faceless Man. Hes a mummer. Having dealings with FM, obviously, but i doubt he is one himself.

[Fire Eater]

"It shall go ill for any man who fails me,” he promised, a threat he borrowed from the speech Prince Garin gives on the eve of battle in Wroth of the Dragonlords,

Nay but you must not fail me, or it will go ill with me.

-Mary Loring, The White Company by Ser Arthur Conan Doyle

The White Company in the title of Doyle's work was taken from an actual mercenary company in the 14th century that serves as an inspiration for the GC. Mary Loring, who utters the words, marries Alleyne, who was raised in a monastery, and is described as "intelligent, skilled, and well-liked, though sheltered and naive" (fAegon anyone) and leaves the monastery with John of Hordle (Jon Connington), and goes off on a few adventures, including arriving at the court of the Prince of Wales (the political influence of Dorne).

I think Arianne may be the Mary Loring here, who marries Aegon and may be the one who utters those words. We first hear of Prince Garin in Arianne's POV. Garin utters those words on the eve of battle, and of course, we know from both Arianne and Tyrion's POVs, how that battle likely goes and how Garin's story ends. He leads his men to their deaths against the dragons, and he loses everything with his kingdom going to Nymeria. A likely hint to Arianne's fate in the second Dance of Dragons with her Rhoynish kingdom (or principality if you want to be technical) going to the likely Nymeria parallel, Dany, who brings her people on ships to Westeros for an invasion.

[ARYa_Nym]

That sounds good Fire Eater. Plus, GRRM said that Nymeria would be most like Dany.

Anyways, I love that Arya interacts with a Daena considering Arya has a lot in common with Daena the Defiant especially with the masquerading as a servant girl while in captivity.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

<snip>

I still think it's futile to lean too much on outside sources as references unless/until the author explicitly says that, "Yes, this outside reference is a source." Because if it's not meant to be read that way, dissecting outside sources as if they have any bearing on this story is basically useless. I've said as much before. There are specific mythological archetypes that can be used broadly. But using specific literature, whether it's Tolkien or White or whoever, always strikes me as probably a mistake to do too much.

I got around to reading it and loved it. There's a lot to chew on. Most of what I picked up on has already been hashed out, but I will say that the reference to a tree watching Nymeria's wolf pack was of particular interest to me. Between that and Theon's chapter and the Arianne chapter where they find weirwoods in the Stormlands (if I remember correctly?), I think we're starting to see Bran and/or Bloodraven finally position themselves to make an impact.

I also like the black-to-brown dragon imagery with the Black Pearl. I had a feeling reading that there was "something" to that, but the point about the muddy book, The Mystery Knight and now the Black Pearl is a fairly compelling symbolic pattern. Or maybe I just really want to see Sheepstealer. :D

[tze]

He leads his men to their deaths against the dragons, and he loses everything with his kingdom going to Nymeria. A likely hint to Arianne's fate in the second Dance of Dragons with her Rhoynish kingdom (or principality if you want to be technical) going to the likely Nymeria parallel, Dany, who brings her people on ships to Westeros for an invasion.

Garin's kingdom didn't go to Nymeria---the whole point was that Garin was defeated by the Valyrians, which caused Nymeria to be kicked out of their kingdom. (I don't think it's ever even been stated how Nymeria was related to Garin. She could have been his wife, his daughter, his sister, or even his mother.) Izembaro quotes Garin here, and Izembaro calls himself the King (of the mummers). This is Arya's chapter, and it opened with Arya awakening from "being" Nymeria. If you're going to look for foreshadowing here, then the clear Nymeria reference here is Arya, not Dany. If Garin's death caused Nymeria to flee to Westeros, then Izembaro's choice to associate himself with Garin could be a hint that Izembaro's death will be what causes Arya to flee (either from the Gate or to Westeros).

[ARYa_Nym]

I read on reddit that Arya mentions she had an iron key and perhaps she has a fake one so she can steal a real one later. Maybe something of significance is in Iron Bank vaults.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Do you have a quote for that by chance?

I have no memory of it either.

[A Bastard Snow]

The FM supposedly serve death.The fact that the people Arya wishes dead always end up in her path would be a good arguing point that Death wants her to give them the gift.They cant really argue with that now can they?Arya is not seeking these people out therefore it must be Death that puts them in her path.

[Fire Eater]

Garin's kingdom didn't go to Nymeria---the whole point was that Garin was defeated by the Valyrians, which caused Nymeria to be kicked out of their kingdom. (I don't think it's ever even been stated how Nymeria was related to Garin. She could have been his wife, his daughter, his sister, or even his mother.) Izembaro quotes Garin here, and Izembaro calls himself the King (of the mummers). This is Arya's chapter, and it opened with Arya awakening from "being" Nymeria. If Garin's death caused Nymeria to flee to Westeros, then Izembaro's choice to associated himself with Garin could be a hint that Izembaro's death will be what causes Arya to flee (either from the Gates or to Westeros).

The Rhoynar followed Nymeria after Garin's defeat, and so it would be safe to assume that Nymeria was left in charge of the Rhoynar after Garin's capture. No parallel has to be completely perfect.

[ARYa_Nym]

The FM supposedly serve death.The fact that the people Arya wishes dead always end up in her path would be a good arguing point that Death wants her to give them the gift.They cant really argue with that now can they?Arya is not seeking these people out therefore it must be Death that puts them in her path.

Your sig is amusing. It makes me think of Beyonce who calls herself King B and would be a RL metaphorical assassin to me. She releases her album with some serious stealth and mercilessly slays and buries the careers of her rivals.

Anyways, on Nymeria yes this could further the parallel. Arya and her wolf fled the Lannisters and Nymeria was fleeing the Valyrians. Now there could be a new one of her fleeing after the king is dead. Except I don't think she's leaving the FM just yet.

[tze]

The Rhoynar followed Nymeria after Garin's defeat, and so it would be safe to assume that Nymeria was left in charge of the Rhoynar after Garin's capture. No parallel has to be completely perfect.

Your post relied on the idea that Nymeria got her kingdom from Garin. Not only did she not get her literal kingdom from him (as his death forced her to leave that kingdom), but the idea that her authority in any way derived from him is actually pure speculation. And the fact that Nymeria didn't get the Rhoynish lands after Garin's death contradicts the idea that her story can be taken to hint that any Nymeria parallel will get a Garin parallel's "region". Frankly, the way you tie this outside source to ASOIAF, and then try to tie that to the story of Garin and Nymeria, just doesn't hold water. Trying to analogize Arianne to Garin via in-story examples would be worthwhile. Trying to analogize Arianne to Garin via such an incredibly convoluted (and not even in-story) path just doesn't make sense. Parallels don't have to be perfect, but they need more than this to be said to exist.

And as Apple stated, going to an outside source in the first place for foreshadowing is extremely problematic.