[TWOW Spoilers] March 2014 Chapter Part III

[Gwydden]

I just noticed something else that seems to support my idea that the FM can't do gender swap. When Arya goes to him, the KM tells her they rarely accept women into their ranks, partly because women are supposed to create life while the FM destroy it. That seems like an awful lot of importance given to sex if they can easily change it.

What like Dragons and Wargs? I see your point but I think it's highly possible. If there are people in the ASOIAF world who can Warg into trees and animals and see through their eyes/control them then it's highly possible. I personally would look at instances like Bran warging into Hodor, or the instace with Varymyr in AFFC.. I know warging is different but to me it suggests the possibility of the ability to change your form through some kind of magic/sorcery.

That's what warg means in our world, and how many in Westeros (who don't know a thing about it) think it works. I think the fact that in ASoIaF it's different reinforces my idea. I see it like Martin stating that there is nothing like actual shapeshifting in his world.

[The Lord of the Waters]

I just noticed something else that seems to support my idea that the FM can't to gender swap. When Arya goes to him, the KM tells her they don't often accept women into their ranks, partly because women are supposed to create life while the FM destroy it. That seems like an awful lot of importance given to sex if they can easily change it.

I think that is more to do with the sentimentality of women, they are naturally more empathetic and less likely to kill without issue. Men are more likely to be cold blooded killers.

Also if they only had men and they needed to take the Face of a woman, they would need that man to become a woman when wearing that face, therefore if they have only men they would HAVE to be able to change gender to assume the identity of a female character.

[Gwydden]

I think that is more to do with the sentimentality of women, they are naturally more empathetic and less likely to kill without issue. Men are more likely to be cold blooded killers.

Also if they only had men and they needed to take the Face of a woman, they would need that man to become a woman when wearing that face, therefore if they have only men they would HAVE to be able to change gender to assume the identity of a female character.

Or they just wouldn't be able too. However, they do have women, even if they are a minority, which actually suggests they need them. Most martial organizations in ASoIaF are male only. The FM are a curious exception.

EDIT: I feel like maybe we shouldn't continue this argument in this thread. I just find the whole FM thing extremely confusing, so it is hard to get a grasp of Arya's actual abilities. Still, I'm sticking to the apparent "no shapeshifting" rule.

[The Lord of the Waters]

That's what warg means in our world, and how many in Westeros (who don't know a thing about it) think it works. I think the fact that in ASoIaF it's different reinforces my idea. I see it like Martin stating that there is nothing like actual shapeshifting in his world.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. My point was that in a world where people can warg into trees and animals etc. it seems very possible that people could feasibly change their appearance/identity/gender. I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be possible in Martin's world.

Or they just wouldn't be able too. However, they do have women, even if they are a minority, which actually suggests they need them. Most martial organizations in ASoIaF are male only. The FM are a curious exception.

EDIT: I feel like maybe we shouldn't continue this argument in this thread. I just find the whole FM thing extremely confusing, so it is hard to get a grasp of Arya's actual abilities. Still, I'm sticking to the apparent "no shapeshifting" rule.

I think the fact that he says they 'do not often accept them' actually suggests that they do not need them.

But ok yeah, Perhaps it shouldn't continue here lol.

I am not saying you are wrong either, just that I don't get the same impression myself based on the text. I agree that the FM are very curious and I think we have yet to really learn much about them, which for me is why this Arya chapter is exciting because it is another piece of the FM puzzle almost, I guess we will learn eventually how it works (hopefully).

[binga]

A very disturbing chapter but interesting nonetheless to see Arya's character development. I've heard that Sansa may have a controversial chapter in Winds of Winter so I can only imagine what that will be like. Maybe I need to sharpen my reading skills but I was not able to pick up on all the little details that everyone else picked up on.

[The Lord of the Waters]

I think one of the interesting things in this chapter is the whole 'Key' business.

But as someone said here rather interestingly, which I was yet to consider was perhaps the key she has, has already been taken from someone, so in other words perhaps Arya's mission was almost over anyway.

Killing Raff was obviously not part of her mission but it will be interesting what the consequences will be for her.

[Veltigar]

So the FM are the tea party and they are on the opposing side to the Bankers?

Surely that should be the other way round. :huh:

I was going for the crazy fanatic angle ;)

[ARYa_Nym]

Green water came up earlier too besides her Braavos chapters.

ACoK

The green water was warm as tears, but there was no salt in it. It tasted of summer and mud and growing things. Arya plunged her face down into it to wash off the dust and dirt and sweat of the day. When she leaned back the trickles ran down the back of her neck and under her collar. They felt good. She wished she could take off her clothes and swim, gliding through the warm water like an skinny pink otter. Maybe she could swim all the way to Winterfell.

^Interesting that she says there's no salt what with the brackish line that is in this chapter.

It tasted of summer. There's also mud. She's had dreams of fire, mud, and blood before.

Not an example of that but another line about water and green.

Arya climbed. Up in the kingdom of the leaves, she unsheathed and for a time forgot them all, Ser Amory and the Mummers and her father's men alike, losing herself in the feel of rough wood beneath the soles of her feet and the swish of sword through air. A broken branch became Joffrey. She struck at it until it fell away. The queen and Ser Ilyn and Ser Meryn and the Hound were only leaves, but she killed them all as well, slashing them to wet green ribbons.

More on color...

Nymeria's palace is pink and green.

The color of flowers she got for Ned were purple and green. She wears a lilac dress and a light green dress in ASoS.

Dany:

She loved the sea. She liked the sharp salty smell of the air…It made her feel small, but free as well. She liked the dolphins that sometimes swam along beside Balerion…She even liked the sailors, with all their songs and stories. Once on a voyage to Braavos, as she'd watch the crew wrestle down a great green sail in a rising gale, she had even thought how fine it would be to be a sailor.

There seems to be so much green symbolism but she's going to be around Dany. I haven't seen as much proof that she is going to be around Aegon but if he's green then I guess. Is he personally connected with the color? Although we haven't seen him much to really judge.

[tyrions sliced nose]

I wonder if Dunsen is at bravvos, i think he was with Raff when jamie sent them away. Could be another kill and strike off her list.

So looking forward to the new book.

[Booknerd2]

Great chapter. I have no doubt that Arya is supposed to be playing Sansa. Shae was 19 at her death, and no one would have a 11/12 year old unexperienced girl to play a 19 year old woman. Besides, Shae is a commoner. No one would care about her, much less write a play with her in it.

It's extremely sad that Arys, most likely, had to "know" about her sister's fate in this way. Playing her as she is raped and murdered, one day after another. And she doesn't even seem to care. It's also very sad that her first kiss was probably with Raff. Sick!

Theories I subscribe to:

1) Tywin went to Lys to leave Tysha "wherever whores go".

2) The iron key Arya hids in one of her pockets will become important. It has to be linked with those keyholders that seem to be important Bravosi officers ("keyholder Bessaro", and "there are five keyholders").

Have been so busy with work that I have barely had time to read threads the last few weeks. :crying: So to my surprise, I finally free up and see that not only is there a new chapter released for WOW, but it is one of my fav characters, and the posters are picking up great stuff. This was a gift. I've had one hell of a few busy weeks at work.

Actually, between being excited and trying to get back into the Ice and Fire mind frame again, due to mind rust, I just read it so my brain is in overdrive. Too much to take in, so many thoughts hitting my brain at once as I read this thread. So happy and thrilled to see it.

But this: "1) Tywin went to Lys to leave Tysha."

This was great to see, because I just pondered mere minutes ago as I read the chapter, Why the hell would Tywin, knowing Tywin, bother to make a trek to Lys?

Sorry, everyone. I have to gush. Late to the game, but so excited to get another chapter and more info. What a return to the boards!

Ok, back to more insightful thread reading.

Oh, and dude, same thing here. I face palmed thinking…. Lovely. Great. Just great. First technical kiss is from Raff of all people.

That stuck out for me too.

[kephv]

But this: "1) Tywin went to Lys to leave Tysha."

As someone else pointed out, Tyrion would've been six or seven at that point, so it couldn't be related.

[Booknerd2]

As someone else pointed out, Tyrion would've been six or seven at that point, so it couldn't be related.

Thanks. Just read the chapter for the first time and the brain is whirling, and I am not a timeline person…a'tall Ok, then any other speculation as to why he would go there that would fit with timelines and the canon?

[Kasrith]

Don't know if anyone's mentioned this, but could Arya take Raff's face to join the Westerosi envoy? That would neutralize the issue with the Lannister men (cause they won't know he's been killed) and give her a way across the sea. Would be a nice parallel as well with Jaqen being disguised as a Lannister guard while helping Arya way back when.

[kephv]

Thanks. Just read the chapter for the first time and the brain is whirling, and I am not a timeline person…a'tall.

Nor I am. No clue why he would've went there though, but there was some speculation a few pages back on what it could be.

Don't know if anyone's mentioned this, but could Arya take Raff's face to join the Westerosi envoy? That would neutralize the issue with the Lannister men (cause they won't know he's been killed) and give her a way across the sea. Would be a nice parallel as well with Jaqen being disguised as a Lannister guard while helping Arya way back when.

No, as Raff is a man, and we have no indication that it works cross gender, or that someone a lot smaller could replace someone a lot larger. Either way it's not needed, as she could probably hitch a ride to Westeros any time she wanted -- or could have up until recently.

[Kasrith]

Nor I am. No clue why he would've went there though, but there was some speculation a few pages back on what it could be.

No, as Raff is a man, and we have no indication that it works cross gender, or that someone a lot smaller could replace someone a lot larger. Either way it's not needed, as she could probably hitch a ride to Westeros any time she wanted -- or could have up until recently.

Hmm I never considered the size difference - just assumed it was a whole shape-shift trick rather than more simply face-swap. Thanks for pointing that out, it most likely wouldn't work out. I feel the cross-gender thing is less of an issue, especially since she's still of an age where she could be a male Arry-type. Again, as long as it's someone her size though

[Booknerd2]

The significant change in this kill is that she now cares that they know why exactly they are killed for. She could have killed Raff quickly and unnoticed, but she took great risks in making sure that he knew it was for Lommy. With that in mind, the Freys are the only ones that would make sense to kill as Nymeria IMO.

Have you read the Sworn Sword (Dunc & Egg story)? There, it is explained why such things are important ("the pissing contest"). Whore or no, she's a 'citizen' of Braavos. The Westerosi come to ask for a loan, and start killing the locals? They can't let it go just like that, I'd think.

Also, the Sealord is dying and soon there will be elections (unless it has already happened off screen?). Such events can be used in the 'game', to affect the public image of the rival candidates.

Crap. I typed in the box with the quote. Sorry….

Anyway:

Love it. Did not pick up on the leg and Lommy. On a first time read I was too in the moment. Poignant that with as far away as she is and in the midst of her road to becoming "no one" and hanging with the FM, she doesn't forget Lommy. Gendry and Hot Pie??? I'm sure she cares, and it is only important if it helps her retain her self, her identity, her feelings, and her old life. And a nice nod if she does meet up with the Wolf Pack again. Interesting to see.

[Le Cygne]

Love it. Did not pick up on the leg and Lommy. On a first time read I was too in the moment. Poignant that with as far away as she is and in the midst of her road to becoming "no one" and hanging with the FM, she doesn't forget Lommy. Gendry and Hot Pie??? I'm sure she cares, and it is only important if it helps her retain her self, her identity, her feelings, and her old life. And a nice nod if she does meet up with the Wolf Pack again. Interesting to see.

Hmmm, now you have me thinking about Gendry!

This, I think, was the saddest line: "The gods have given me a gift."

[Booknerd2]

Hi Le Cygne.

Yup. It is better that Raff is dead. If Gendry found out he kissed his little tom boy, he so would have cracked him in the face with a hammer. LOL!

[Pod The Impaler]

So here are my thoughts on a few of what appear to be contentious issues (unless they have been resolved in the interim threads that I have skipped):

1. It is quite clear that Izembaro is not a Faceless Man people. He is no different to Brusco or whatever the name of the clam fisherman was that Arya was apprenticed to before. He probably knows just enough that if the Faceless Men ask him a favour he obliges, without asking any questions. He is a buffoon and has no idea that "Mercy" is a trainee Faceless Man.

2. Arya is not about to part with the Faceless Men immediately after killing Raff. She is merely finishing her "Mercy" phase.

3. Arya is not sexually awakening or becoming a whore or anything of the sort. If anything, she is asexual, and long may she remain so in order to be remain the Arya we like.

She grabbed Raff's cock as she would have grabbed his arm or leg or throat. Not out of sexual desire, but out of practicality. Personally, I hope and believe that Arya will die a virgin and never become less than the killing machine she is right now. She is Asha without the "Her c*nt became the world" aspect which is not necessary or appropriate for Arya's character. Arya is unique. She is not any other human. She is kind of a priestess of death, but with a moral code that ensures that only bad people get the Gift, unlike the Faceless Men who have no morals whatsoever.

4. Arya is not a sociopath. She is just killing people that need killing. She is not going to kill Jon or Sansa or Hot Pie and not feel a thing. But if it is a "bad" person, well, then she is certainly not going to feel a thing, and rightly so. She is a dealer in retribution, she is the Hand of Poetic Justice in this sorry tale that so sorely lacks justice in almost every other respect.

5. Arya was not on any mission at the Gate. She was just learning to act. Now that she got her first lines in a play, it seems that role was done for in any case. That training is now complete.

7. Lastly, everyone seems to greatly overestimate the retribution that the House of Black and White is about to (constantly) imminently unleash on Arya for breaking their rules. The fact is, they are not playing Arya, she is playing them. This was made utterly clear in the Kindly Man stick hitting scene, where her warging secret not only allows her to cling to her identity, but to outwit his attempts at dominating her during lessons.

Not only are the Faceless Men not going to suddenly exact terrible punishment on Arya, the opposite is in fact the truth. Arya is unlike anything they have ever encountered before in their 800 years or more of existence. She is the greatest assassin in history, in the making, and is a warg. Once the time comes, not only is she not going to suffer their punishment, she is going to exact retribution on THEM, as I have said for some time now. The House of Black and White is likely to suffer a terrible cataclysm when Arya parts with them on acrimonious terms.

Oh yes, as for this chapter. I was creeped out by the sexual nature of the content, but I loved Arya's retribution against "Rafford" at the end. She remains on track for her intended role after the "5 year gap" training period.

# 1, 2 ,4, 5: I mostly agree.

#3 - Well, I do not need Arya to be an unsexual / asexual being for her to be a "loved" character. Actually, I think it would dissappoint to see her remain sort of machine-like in her character; she is Lyanna reborn in so many ways, and the time has pretty much come for her to be having those sorts of desires, perhaps even passionate ones. Of course what the FM want is the former, but I think the she-wolf in her will become the latter. Still, I suspect, Arya is more streetwise and matter-of-fact about it; even with her threatening to mutilate Bobono's front-facing appendages, this does not mean to me that she's sex-phobic (though considering what she's seen, you could hardly blame her), only that she's not likely to go there if it's not on her terms. I agree with the idea that her luring & killing Raff was more a function of knowing what sort of man he was, what his weakness was.

#7 - Well, I hope so. This would mesh with the idea I've long held that Arya is something special with regard to death, and they may recognize this in her, perhaps even that they were seeking her out. She may be the Arthur Dayne of assassins, the Melisandre of murder. After all, did not the Many Faced God place hear her prayer, and place Raff right there and right then to receive the gift from her ?

[Fire Eater]

Fire Eater,

You're arguing that Dany would be taking power in Dorne from Arianne. For that situation to parallel Nymeria and Garin with Dany as Nymeria and Arianne as Garin, Nymeria would have to have had to take power that she did not previously have from Garin. There is no evidence that was the case. Though that's rather irrelevant to my larger point, because my real issue with your parallel is that it tries to tie Arianne to Garin in a way that simply makes no sense.

Nymeria likely didn't rule if Garin was the ruling prince.

Were you trying to argue that Arianne represents Garin via in-story examples, that would be one thing. But you try to argue that two quotes in two different works which say different things and mean different things are meant to directly parallel two characters. "It shall go ill for any man who fails me" is not the same quote as "Nay but you must not fail me, or it will go ill with me." The former quote indicates danger specifically to the man who fails Garin, not to Garin himself. The latter quote indicates danger specifically to Mary Lohring because of someone else's failure. These are two different quotes with different meanings.

That may be, but it went ill for Garin as well. You may be right, you be wrong.

And even if these quotes were the same, trying to argue that Arianne represents Mary Lohring, and therefore Arianne also represents Garin, because Mary Lohring said something similar to Garin, simply makes no sense. To use your own example: this is like arguing that because Caesar is the one who says Cassius has "a lean and hungry look" in Julius Caesar, then our Caesar figure in ASOIAF must obviously be Dolorous Edd, because Dolorous Edd is the person who says that Marsh et al have "a hungry look about them". In fact, Jon specifically thinks to himself, "Hungry was not the word Jon would have used." Ergo, Jon cannot be our Caesar figure.

I think you are misrepresenting what I was saying as Arianne didn't utter those words. mo more than Jon did.

You would need strong evidence tying Arianne to Garin (and let's not forget that Dany is hardly our only potential Nymeria figure), and this is just too remote.

Who else is the Nymeria parallel? How many other people have we heard of bringing people acorss the sea on ships? GRRM himself said Dany's arc is similar to that of Nymeria. As for the Garin parallel, I can't think of any other princes/esses who are going to lead a doomed attempt against the side with dragons.

I believe I did state the possible connections in the original post. Alleyne must prove himself to be a worthy knight of Mary's hand. I think Arianne may find that Aegon proved himself as king and that he is who he says he is by his appearance and in terms of deeds in the war, such as taking SE (although that was Connington's work).