[TWOW Spoilers] March 2014 Chapter Part III

[boojam]

You bring up a good question, one that stays with me all the time. I do kind of think that Jaqen was a little off the reservation with his deal with Arya. I really do think so.

I think Jaqen was given a free hand, and in fact he was assessing Arya for the FM.

If she can out wit him, as she does, can she survive all other travails after she leaves the company of Jaqen , which means surviving long enough to get to Braavos and the House of Black and White....

He does give her the coin and "valar morghulis".

The FM have hit the jackpot!

[conon394]

Can you explain why Jaqen always knows that she is Arya Stark?

He is a FM after all... and as we learn later from Arya chapters trained to observe

she is the right age

she is a girl hiding as a boy

she obviously being helped by a Black Brother

she has a sword - a fine one - not exactly something flea bottom trash has and a practice sword

she knows how to use it and did so - demonstrating she was trained.

she was afraid of the gold cloaks

she no doubt speaks like somebody with an education/nobility and possible a northern accent

she may or may not have unconsciously read a sign or such - something almost certainly none of her companions could do

Once in Yoren's custody JH would have the ability to hear the gossip and know she was lost/not in custody

I mean really the pieces are not all that hard to put together if that is your job.

[TheSamsa]

Since I don't have enough time to follow all Parts of this discussion, only got it through part I completely. I am hoping this isn't talked or speculated to death already:

- Is it known or hinted somewhere wich Arya chapter it is? I am guessing it is the first one in tWoW.

- When in tWoW you think will this chapter be? Since it hints Cercei has gained back her power I am leaning towards something between one third to half of the book.

And some small addition cause this was talked heavily over in part I of this discussion:

The sexualization of Arya does come almost certainly from Mercy. It is shown in previous volumes that memories get transferred to the new wearer of the face.

And besides it is very "Martinish" to have two sorts of skinchanging, one where u transfere ur mind into someone and the other where you wear the face of someone. :D

[Sand Snake No. 9]

IMO, unlike Arya, UnCat has gone too far with wanting to hang boys like Pod who happen to born in the West and happen to serve a Lannister. I think Arya's skills may be put to the test, and she'll be the one to put what is left of her mother to rest. I'm thinking it might be Arya who has to do it, unless Brienne does. Someone who cared for Cat or loved her may have to do so. I think Arya has come far enough to realize that LS isn't really her mother, just the living embodiment of her last minutes and all her losses. I'm hopeful, however it happens, that LS is sent to her final rest knowing of her children who still live.

I really don't want to understand why some readers think that it would be a good thing for one of Cat's own children to put her down. First she sees her "allies" kill her beloved son and friends while they were under the protection of the guest right, she goes insane, she's murdered believing that three others of her children are dead, her body is defiled, she rots in the river for three days, then she's hauled back to life without her consent -- so after all that how is being killed by one of those children she loved so much going to give her peace?

Furthermore I think that Arya is the LEAST likely of Cat's children to be disgusted by Lady Stoneheart. First of all, Arya wasn't grossed out by anything even before she was taken in by the FM. This is the girl who plucks worms out of eye-sockets and eats them, preps dead bodies, puts skin masks on her face. She's been killing since she was 9-years-old, and, if you look at my signature line, she wants to kill all the Freys. I think that if Arya saw what the Freys did to her mother she most definitely wouldn't take it out on her.

Bran, meanwhile, is hanging out with skeletons and running with wolves -- don't think he'd be that upset by mom, in fact, they'd probably be very happy to find one another again. Rickon has been hanging out with cannibals and a wild, wild wolf, and, I suspect, he's baby bat-shit crazy (I have no problem with that, either, poor tyke is entitled). If he recognizes Cat he may act out his abandonment issues, but I doubt he'd be bothered by any killing she's done. Even Sansa, who likes things pretty and would probably be really upset by her mother's current appearance, has her own little hit list. So, mercy kin slaying seems to be the last thing the Stark kids would get up to.

[QueenOfWhiteWalkers]

Carry on, but let's keep it more civil than the last thread please.

Where can I read this chapter pls?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Can you explain why Jaqen always knows that she is Arya Stark?

This pretty much says it all:

He an FM after all...

she is the right age

she is a girl hiding as a boy

she obviously being helped by a Black Brother

she has a sword - a fine one - not exactly something flea bottom trash has and a practice sword

she knows how to use and did so - demonstrating she was trained.

she was afraid of the gold cloaks

she no doubt speaks like somebody with an education/nobility and possible a northern accent

she may or may not have unconsciously red a sign or such - something almost certainly none of her companions could do

Once in Yoren's custody JH would have the ability to hear the gossip and know she was lost

I mean really the pieces are not all that hard to put together if that is your job.

Also, Arya called out "Winterfell" during the fight. If that's not a strong hint about your identity... I mean, even Hot Pie got suspicious after that..

From Arya's interactions with Jaqen and especially the FM guild at the House of Black and White we learn that the FM are not just highly trained assassins. Only the most intelligent graduate and have skills way beyond anything even a master ninja master has, they do not make mistakes they are other worldly.

In any case we see that Jaqen gets Arya to Braavos and the House of Black and White ... it is a bit convoluted but then that is the way the FM work.

Just have to read those Arya-FM chapters in Braavos carefully.

Ah, but I've read those several times, very carefully.. I see your opinion on the FM is just a very high one, and that's fine. But presenting your opinion as a fact is not a good way of argueing. The text does not state that FM posess ninja-like abilities. The text does not state that they never make a mistake. They are good, there is no doubting that. But they are still human. And humans can always make mistakes.

(By the by even the fire worked out in his favor.)

It did. That's called getting lucky. The fire nearly killed him, and he could not have predicted that Arya would safe him. He could not even have predicted that there would have been a fire.

Where can I read this chapter pls?

On GRRM's website, under books -> book samples -> Winds of Winter

[boojam]

He is a FM after all... and as we learn later from Arya chapters trained to observe

she is the right age

she is a girl hiding as a boy

she obviously being helped by a Black Brother

she has a sword - a fine one - not exactly something flea bottom trash has and a practice sword

she knows how to use it and did so - demonstrating she was trained.

she was afraid of the gold cloaks

she no doubt speaks like somebody with an education/nobility and possible a northern accent

she may or may not have unconsciously read a sign or such - something almost certainly none of her companions could do

Once in Yoren's custody JH would have the ability to hear the gossip and know she was lost/not in custody

I mean really the pieces are not all that hard to put together if that is your job.

Exactly all those things confirm that he was tailing the right person.

[boojam]

Ah, but I've read those several times, very carefully.. I see your opinion on the FM is just a very high one, and that's fine. But presenting your opinion as a fact is not a good way of argueing. The text does not state that FM posess ninja-like abilities. The text does not state that they never make a mistake. They are good, there is no doubting that. But they are still human. And humans can always make mistakes.

I concede that the FM could make a mistake, tho on GRRM's pages they have not yet.

If they do it's going to have be one of sophistication and high order.

It's the degree of the mistake that's in question, could an FM make such a >stupid< mistake?

How in the world did Jaqen get to be a FM then?

One Gold Cloak : "Is this the guy you intended to arrest?"

Another Gold Cloak : "No he looked completely different from this guy."

[boojam]

This pretty much says it all:

Also, Arya called out "Winterfell" during the fight. If that's not a strong hint about your identity... I mean, even Hot Pie got suspicious after that..

GRRM never tells us Jaqen was ever close enough to hear this, or even Arya and Gendry's conversation.

It did. That's called getting lucky. The fire nearly killed him, and he could not have predicted that Arya would safe him. He could not even have predicted that there would have been a fire.

On GRRM's website, under books -> book samples -> Winds of Winter

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

GRRM never tells us Jaqen was ever close enough to hear this, or even Arya and Gendry's conversation.

It did. That's called getting lucky. The fire nearly killed him, and he could not have predicted that Arya would safe him. He could not even have predicted that there would have been a fire.

On GRRM's website, under books -> book samples -> Winds of Winter

Jaqen was looking for tests of Arya's abilities and was willing to die , if it came to that, to confirm them.

Jaqen could have told the House of Black and White she was coming, if she proved she could make it, but they were not the least surprised and knew who she was from the get go.

Why did Jaqen give her the coin and tell her were to go and how to get there?

[boojam]

Because he saw her potential. That's why he gave her the coin, told her the words, and pointed her towards Braavos. It was always up to Arya to decide if she wanted to go.

Jaqen had a purpose in Westeros, no doubt, but his showing up at the Citadel, and staying there, suggests that the trip to the Wall was not the plan, it just happened by accident, and Jaqen could do nothing but sit it out and wait. The worst case scenario, he had to travel all the way to the Wall, take the Black (to be allowed out of his chains), and then escape, taking on a new face to avoid getting arrested as a deserter.

Can you cite anywhere in GRRM's work where going to the Wall was NOT part of Jaqen's assignment?

Just what was he doing in KL rather than going to the Citadel right off?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Can you cite anywhere in GRRM's work where going to the Wall was NOT part of Jaqen's assignment?

Just what was he doing in KL rather than going to the Citadel right off?

I used to feel the same way, but if Jaqen's mission was to go to the Wall, why didnt he continue there after he got out of the cage?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Can you cite anywhere in GRRM's work where going to the Wall was NOT part of Jaqen's assignment?

Just what was he doing in KL rather than going to the Citadel right off?

I used to feel the same way, but if Jaqen's mission was to go to the Wall, why didnt he continue there after he got out of the cage?

Exactly.

Jaqen's assignement is not stated anywhere. So your reasoning that Jaqen must have been recruiting Arya, a girl whom he could not be sure he'd meet by getting locked up, is a guess as well. Jaqen had been locked up for a while, and when Yoren was allowed to have his pick from the dungeons, Ned was still Hand, and Arya was still safe.

If going to the Wall was Jaqen's assignement, he would have gone there. I've already stated that I don't know what he was doing in KL.

[Bob Sacamano]

So at the end of the chapter, GRRM starts to use Arya as name talking/thinking. Do you think she will finally be Arya of House Stark again from this chapter forward?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I really don't want to understand why some readers think that it would be a good thing for one of Cat's own children to put her down. First she sees her "allies" kill her beloved son and friends while they were under the protection of the guest right, she goes insane, she's murdered believing that three others of her children are dead, her body is defiled, she rots in the river for three days, then she's hauled back to life without her consent -- so after all that how is being killed by one of those children she loved so much going to give her peace?

Furthermore I think that Arya is the LEAST likely of Cat's children to be disgusted by Lady Stoneheart. First of all, Arya wasn't grossed out by anything even before she was taken in by the FM. This is the girl who plucks worms out of eye-sockets and eats them, preps dead bodies, puts skin masks on her face. She's been killing since she was 9-years-old, and, if you look at my signature line, she wants to kill all the Freys. I think that if Arya saw what the Freys did to her mother she most definitely wouldn't take it out on her.

Bran, meanwhile, is hanging out with skeletons and running with wolves -- don't think he'd be that upset by mom, in fact, they'd probably be very happy to find one another again. Rickon has been hanging out with cannibals and a wild, wild wolf, and, I suspect, he's baby bat-shit crazy (I have no problem with that, either, poor tyke is entitled). If he recognizes Cat he may act out his abandonment issues, but I doubt he'd be bothered by any killing she's done. Even Sansa, who likes things pretty and would probably be really upset by her mother's current appearance, has her own little hit list. So, mercy kin slaying seems to be the last thing the Stark kids would get up to.

I don't think you were getting my point at all. First off, my thoughts on the subject are not about it being a happy ending. I'm not saying that Arya would be upset by the sight of UnCat, I'm saying that Arya may finally realize that what is left standing in front of her, if she ever does come face to face with her, is not her Mother. That is the point. The point for me is that LS is just the embodiment of insanity, of bitterness and revenge and I hope for two things in it's resolution..........that first, whatever is left inside of LS does learn she has children that have survived, and two........that someone who loves her helps her come to that understanding, be it Arya or Bran or even, Brienne. I think it may take someone who loves her to get through to whatever is left inside of that creature......that it IS time for her to go to her final rest.

It's called my own opinion, and I am entitled to it.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I think Jaqen was given a free hand, and in fact he was assessing Arya for the FM.

If she can out wit him, as she does, can she survive all other travails after she leaves the company of Jaqen , which means surviving long enough to get to Braavos and the House of Black and White....

He does give her the coin and "valar morghulis".

The FM have hit the jackpot!

I do go with the idea of some sort of 'free hand,' or course correcting, in relation to Jaqen and Arya. I'm not one who really thinks that Jaqen necessarily found himself in the black cells on purpose, truth be told......that portion doesn't really interest me, LOL I think that it seems his 'mission' was probably first Balon Greyjoy as an all around contract. I think his actions in The Citadel aren't a contract, per se, but a deeper mission for the FM itself. I do think somewhere along the way.......that the business with Arya was a free lance decision of his own, one that FM are perhaps allowed to make. He saw something in Arya, and as an FM was/is allowed to test it and act on it. The coin seems to say something to that effect.

There is something about it that I think was just Jaqen, though. Maybe that's just the discretionary choice that may be his perogative, but it feels freelance? LOL does that make sense? Being as it seems that Jaqen is on this mission at The Citadel that isn't just about a contract killing, maybe that's what leads to confusion. We expect it to just be about a one kill mission, and well, ever since we've met him, Jaqen has been all over the map?

[TsX5]

Hey, guys! I want to ask if anyone can give me a link to that new Arya sample because I can't find it. Thank you ^_^

[ARYa_Nym]

I definitely got little Greyjoy vibes which makes sense since she wanted to see a seamonster. I want them to increase so I can pin down which one she's going to meet. Victarion or Euron or both.

As said the crooked line sounds like mad, madder, and maddest. & possibly does not sew.

Bobono telling Mercy that they were meant to be together is exactly what Tris told Asha. He had not touched another woman since he fooled around with Asha so he was still a virgin. I imagine the dwarf was one too.

Asha also threatened to make one of the Ironborn a eunuch during the kingsmoot.

& on the fear aspect that's what Theon said in ACoK. It's better to be feared than laughed at and he said blood will have blood. Two Stark boys for Balon's two older sons that were killed.

Hey, guys! I want to ask if anyone can give me a link to that new Arya sample because I can't find it. Thank you ^_^

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

[conon394]

Exactly all those things confirm that he was tailing the right person.

Except he was not. He was locked up and helpless. He he really knew where she was and wanted to tail here much more easy to simply show up and sign up with Yoren for the NW.

[Faceless Man Friday]

Except he was not. He was locked up and helpless. He he really knew where she was and wanted to tail here much more easy to simply show up and sign up with Yoren for the NW.

We can say he was locked up but we do not know he was helpless or that he did not want to be there. Why would he be going to the wall? Who else was supposed to go to the wall and most likely be locked up in that cart? Why Ned of course. Wasn't that the plan? Wasn't Yorren told to be at the Steps of Balor to pick up Ned? I would think a traitor would not be allowed to just ride out of the City. He would most likely be locked in a cage, just like Jaqen. Oh..and who told Yorren? Who has unfettered access to the Black Cells? Who wanted Ned to say he would take the Black? Who has connections in Essos and maybe Braavos? Why Varys of course...hmmm. What more could have been part of that plan that we do not know? Was Ned ever going to make it to the Wall? Was there going to be an escape? Or was Jaqen there to make sure Ned made it safely to the Wall? Or was he there to kill Ned on the way and/or make it look like an accident? I don't know the answers but I believe they are the right questions.