[TWOW Spoilers] March 2014 Chapter Part III

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

We can say he was locked up but we do not know he was helpless or that he did not want to be there. Why would he be going to the wall? Who else was supposed to go to the wall and most likely be locked up in that cart? Why Ned of course. Wasn't that the plan? Wasn't Yorren told to be at the Steps of Balor to pick up Ned? I would think a traitor would not be allowed to just ride out of the City. He would most likely be locked in a cage, just like Jaqen. Oh..and who told Yorren? Who has unfettered access to the Black Cells? Who wanted Ned to say he would take the Black? Who has connections in Essos and maybe Braavos? Why Varys of course...hmmm. What more could have been part of that plan that we do not know? Was Ned ever going to make it to the Wall? Was there going to be an escape? Or was Jaqen there to make sure Ned made it safely to the Wall? Or was he there to kill Ned on the way and/or make it look like an accident? I don't know the answers but I believe they are the right questions.

Jaqen had been locked up longer than Ned had been locked up. In fact, Jaqen might have already been transported elsewhere when Ned was put in the Black Cells. And Ned, as an honorable man, would not necessarily be put in a cage. Every little detail of Cersei's plans with Ned was about Ned's honour. And the result of her plan was to have the North calm down again. Having Ned transported to the North in a cage would not do that at all.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I remember reading somewhere that GRRM was asked why Jaqen was in the black cells and he said "it's a mystery", meaning that he hadn't thought about it at all and he's not going to write a back story about it. Unfortunately, I can't find the quote, so if someone else can, please post it.

From that, I infer that there wasn't any plan that needed him to be in the black cells but rather it was bad luck. Things like that (bad lack, coincidence, be in the wrong place in the wrong time etc) can happen even to the best. From all the (admitedly, vague) info we have been given throughout the series, I believe that the FM are not omniscient and omnipotent. They have exceptional skills, that they acquire by very hard training, expanding in many fields of knowledge. That, plus the face changing 'magic' (which imo is just the icing on the cake) make them special but not immune to mistakes and failures. It minimizes the possibility of failure to a very very small percentage, to be sure, but doesn't totally eliminate it.

[Lord Fred of Mole's Town]

A few questions/comments regarding "Mercy" (sorry if repeated before...I haven't read all 530+ responses yet):

1) What has Arya/Mercy done for Izembaro other than participate in his stage play? As far as I know, he was to enhance her training. To do what though? Act? Murder someone? Does anyone think that Izembaro and the Kindly Man knew that Izembaro's clientelle would include people on Arya's infamous list...just to test her and see what she would do? Another facet of her training perhaps (revenge vs contract killing)?

2) Given the "Forel" name associated with the play and the subject matter, do you think this was this a trap intended to lure intrigued KL folk to Braavos as part of a higher agenda?

3) Did anyone think, while reading ADwD, that Izembaro would be someone outside of Braavos (possibly in another free city or in Westeros) that has contracted the FM for an assassination? I loved the chapter, especially how Arya is evolving, but I guess I just want Arya to get out of Braavos and continue her journey sooner than later. (Although, as GRRM has stated previously, he could probably dedicate a whole mini-series to Arya's adventures in Braavos).

Thoughts?

[Leofric]

1) I assume Arya is just with Izembaro for training in acting, costuming, and makeup disguise. Taking over someone's life needs more than just wearing their face, you need to act and dress like them as well. We see that Jaqen makes a mistake when he takes over for Pate, not realizing how much the original Pate hated the pigboy story. Having acting skills to better get into character would limit those mistakes.

2) I doubt anyone left alive in King's Landing even knows Syrio's name, so the Forel association is probably meaningless.

[Faceless Man Friday]

Jaqen had been locked up longer than Ned had been locked up. In fact, Jaqen might have already been transported elsewhere when Ned was put in the Black Cells. And Ned, as an honorable man, would not necessarily be put in a cage. Every little detail of Cersei's plans with Ned was about Ned's honour. And the result of her plan was to have the North calm down again. Having Ned transported to the North in a cage would not do that at all.

Maybe but Jaqen could have been locked up longer than Ned but that doesn't mean that the FM who became Jaqen was locked up longer than Ned. That is like saying Jaqen cannot be Pate because Pate has been at the Citadel longer. While you maybe convinced a traitor would be allowed to ride out of the City I am not. The North is not Kings Landing. Her more immediate concern would be to get him out of the City without a riot.

[conon394]

We can say he was locked up but we do not know he was helpless or that he did not want to be there

He needed help escaping

Why would he be going to the wall?

Because he was stuck in the black cells and Ned let Yoren clean out the dungeons

Who else was supposed to go to the wall and most likely be locked up in that cart? Why Ned of course

Nope Ned would have been allowed to ride under guard having given his oath. To send him locked up through the NOrth would have the defeated much of the point of having him take the Black - Edmure for example was allowed to ride not caged.

Wasn't that the plan?

Yes

Wasn't Yorren told to be at the Steps of Balor to pick up Ned?

Sure - rather obviously, but of course nobody could know Arya would be there as well

I would think a traitor would not be allowed to just ride out of the City.

Again Edmure was, Ned would be under guard and with a poor leg - his dignity was critical sop to the North.

He would most likely be locked in a cage, just like Jaqen

Nope

Oh..and who told Yorren? Who has unfettered access to the Black Cells? Who wanted Ned to say he would take the Black?

You are forgetting the Lannisters desperately wanted him to take the black

Who has connections in Essos and maybe Braavos? Why Varys of course...hmmm. What more could have been part of that plan that we do not know? Was Ned ever going to make it to the Wall? Was there going to be an escape? Or was Jaqen there to make sure Ned made it safely to the Wall?

Sorry I like to ignore super Varys - he is so over the top already and in any rational world he would have been executed out of hand by Robert back in the day. Adding some FM connection is just beyond what I care to consider. The simple fact is there were more than enough clues for a person to figure out who Aryra was, and if his mission was follow Ned it still would have been more simple to simply join the NW directly and thus retain freedom of action.

[jblair]

One thing I noticed. Even after all of her training, Arya is still killing inneffectual nobodies and ignoring bigger fish for petty revenge. Arya is definitely stronger in the tactical realm than the strategic.

[conon394]

One thing I noticed. Even after all of her training, Arya is still killing inneffectual nobodies and ignoring bigger fish for petty revenge. Arya is definitely stronger in the tactical realm than the strategic.

Outside of JH's 3 when has she ever had an opportunity to kill any 'Strategic' Targets and Strategic in what sense? What bigger fish? I mean it's not like the books are not full of older more experienced people - Cat, Ned, Oberon, Tywin Tyron, Cersei, Jamie, Stannis, Rennly, Robert, Theon, Danny etc who have made larger mistakes - it a bit harsh to say a 10 year old should not be allowed hers. After maybe wasting the 2 of the 3 kills from JH when has she made that mistake again or missed an opportunity?

[Mourneblade]

Ok finally caught up.....

topics I have read and want to discuss..

The Sex Stuff....First it is obvious that this world, and especially in Essos, that there is not much of a morality factor when it comes to prepubescent teens. Add to that, that Mercy was obviously older than Arya and understands flirting and basic responses to being "hit on". This is done to show us the difference and effects on Arya of wearing someone else's face. This and the effects of her bond with Nymeria is why you see her acting completely out of character. She is under magical influences that affect her memories and actions. Cannot be more clear about this, but Arya is not a normal Preteen, she has magical abilities of her own and has magic placed upon her. Additionally her scene with the dwarf was symbolic of what happened to Sansa on her wedding night, and the reader is meant to see that. She is in a place where there are a lot of degenerate men and she handles herself remarkably well by empowering herself with her magical memories, her experiences, and the strength he draws from Nymeria. Nothing gratuitous about it, just the harsh reality of her setting.

The Killings....Every death that Arya has caused as Arya, has been justified in context with the story, anyone thinking differently needs to re read. Killing the guard in Harrenhal was self preservation, and influenced by Nymeria and her fathers words from the godswood. A trapped wolf will kill you to escape, and everyone would understand that, and that is exactly what Arya did. If she does not escape she dies, end of story. That death is on Roose Bolton. As to Dareon, well he sealed his fate when he deserted from the Night's Watch, he was a dead man walking from that point on. As far as Arya knows she is the last Stark, and as such is justified in carrying out the death sentence. His death is his own, he would have eventually paid with his life for breaking his oath, who does the deed is only semantics. The people on her list deserve to be on her list, and lets not forget she took Sandor of that list. This is a harsh world and Arya is empowering herself the only way a girl of her age and circumstances can. If she were manipulating someone else into doing the killing for her, would that be any different? No. Any killings the FM set her on, that we have seen, are done to further her self empowerment, a means to an end, and she also does believe in the God of Death, but again she is under magical influence of the face she wears, and so far those people, whose faces she has worn, have died in a bad way. She is not currently a sociopath, by definition, so people should not use big words without understanding their meaning. That is not to say that she will not become one, but as long as she has Nymeria, Jon is alive, Bran, and Needle she still has a way back.

Sansa or Shea?...Both, the writer of the play is a GRRM avatar, bloodiest quill anyone lol, and a tweak to those who still think Syrio is alive...He sure enjoys tormenting his fans lol, but that character only has gossip and hearsay when writing this play, and as such things get distorted and blended, and that is what has happened here. The way Arya acts with the giggling etc, is a product of Mercy's Memories and attitude as opposed to, someone else lol.

Who is in power in KL?... It is beyond obvious that Cersei has regained control of her Regency, Lord Harry had no time to leave before Kevan died and its obvious that either Cersei or Lord Tyrell still sent him. Cersei wins her trial, she has too, too much is at stake for all the players. If she loses the Church, the Tyrells, and the Lannisters all lose, and Stannis is rightful King, ERO would freak out and that by itself is enough to convince me she wins :devil: , given that Lannister colors were worn by the guards, its obvious the Lannisters are in power and Cersei has won. Now do we know yet if Margery has won or lost her trial...No. Do we know if Mace is still hand...No.

The Iron Bank...The Iron Bank is done with KL and I feel that they are going to send Harry's head back to KL to reinforce that. Not only does it serve their purpose to do so, it also serves as a plot device that will continue the downward spiral of Cersei, making her feel even more alienated and more wraithful, which will lead, ultimately, to the burning of KL by her own hand. The way she reacted to the Tower of the Hand burning is just screaming pyromaniac foreshadowing.

Needle or Not? Needle is 30 inches long (2 and 1/2 feet.), not a full size rapier, as some have suggested. Can fit in a mummers sleeve. My daughter is Arya's height and you take a yard stick and cut off 6 inches it can work. I lean towards Needle, because it fits with the symbolism, and reinforces that No One is just a means to an ends and she really is Arya Stark and not that Arya Stark is becoming No One.

Anyways just remember Arya is not a Normal 11-12 year old girl. She is under Magical Influence and has Magical Powers, but people tend to forget or overlook that fact and wonder why things do not seem to make sense.

[Cas Stark]

One thing I noticed. Even after all of her training, Arya is still killing inneffectual nobodies and ignoring bigger fish for petty revenge. Arya is definitely stronger in the tactical realm than the strategic.

She definitely missed the boat on the 3 wishes, but now she's not about strategy or tactics, as far as she knows her entire family is dead.

She's got a kill list. She wants to kill the people on the list, apparently now she has advanced to wanting to kill them in a way that mirrors whatever death she holds them responsible for. But, I don't think she cares at this point about anything else, what is the IT to her now? it's nothing, her brother is dead and so is his cause.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I definitely got little Greyjoy vibes which makes sense since she wanted to see a seamonster. I want them to increase so I can pin down which one she's going to meet. Victarion or Euron or both.

As said the crooked line sounds like mad, madder, and maddest. & possibly does not sew.

Bobono telling Mercy that they were meant to be together is exactly what Tris told Asha. He had not touched another woman since he fooled around with Asha so he was still a virgin. I imagine the dwarf was one too.

Asha also threatened to make one of the Ironborn a eunuch during the kingsmoot.

& on the fear aspect that's what Theon said in ACoK. It's better to be feared than laughed at and he said blood will have blood. Two Stark boys for Balon's two older sons that were killed.

Interesting again ARYa_Nym. :)

Thank you for taking a closer look at all of the crooked lines, there is definitely something going on with all of that, and it has peaked my curiosity. I have been paying attention to your Arya-Ironborn connections as I feel there is something to it.

I can't help it but the "mad, madder and maddest" part made me think Theon (for the first time btw) although that's a very, very longshot that he gets sent to Braavos with Massey and Jeyne unless he does end up being spared and she demands that he accompany her. :dunno: he is a eunuch now too...

However, like you have speculated, one of the others - Victarion or Euron - are undoubtedly more likely.

What has Arya/Mercy done for Izembaro other than participate in his stage play? As far as I know, he was to enhance her training. To do what though? Act? Murder someone? Does anyone think that Izembaro and the Kindly Man knew that Izembaro's clientelle would include people on Arya's infamous list...just to test her and see what she would do? Another facet of her training perhaps (revenge vs contract killing)?

Well the Arya is supposed to learn mummery and glamor before she learns to change faces.

"...“Mummers change their faces with artifice,” the kindly man was saying, “and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper..."

[Lord Fred of Mole's Town]

...

Well the Arya is supposed to learn mummery and glamor before she learns to change faces.

"...“Mummers change their faces with artifice,” the kindly man was saying, “and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper..."

Thx for the response. Great kindly man reference. I guess I am trying to ascertain if the kindly man and Izembaro were trying to test Arya as part of her training. Would she kill in an adhoc fashion for her own reasons while "on assignment"? I wonder if that was part of her training/assessment?

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I don't think you were getting my point at all. First off, my thoughts on the subject are not about it being a happy ending. I'm not saying that Arya would be upset by the sight of UnCat, I'm saying that Arya may finally realize that what is left standing in front of her, if she ever does come face to face with her, is not her Mother. That is the point. The point for me is that LS is just the embodiment of insanity, of bitterness and revenge and I hope for two things in it's resolution..........that first, whatever is left inside of LS does learn she has children that have survived, and two........that someone who loves her helps her come to that understanding, be it Arya or Bran or even, Brienne. I think it may take someone who loves her to get through to whatever is left inside of that creature......that it IS time for her to go to her final rest.

It's called my own opinion, and I am entitled to it.

Indeed, you may be upset at what Cat has become, but I think Arya would prefer this version of Cat to the one who betrothed her to Walder Frey's milquetoast 22nd son, Arya being pretty much an embodiment of bitterness and revenge her own self. But whatever else she is, Arya is not a kinslayer, nor likely to become one.

Cat is a vengeful spirit incarnate, a literal curse of the gods, or one god, on those who violated the guest right. Of course she's not the woman she used to be. Meanwhile, vengeful spirits pass on when they're done with their unfinished business from life. Cat, unfortunately, has a LOT of unfinished business, and I expect her to be around for a while.

[conon394]

But, I don't think she cares at this point about anything else, what is the IT to her now? it's nothing, her brother is dead and so is his cause.

In that sense she is a little like Kassandra from the Trojan Women. Her cause is lost but she still can see Agamemnon dead by her her own actions - nihilistic but still happy vengeance

[Lady Fevre Dream]

In deed, you may be upset at what Cat has become, but I think Arya would prefer this version of Cat to the one who betrothed her to Walder Frey's milquetoast 22nd son, Arya being pretty much an embodiment of bitterness and revenge her own self. But whatever else she is, Arya is not a kinslayer, nor likely to become one.

Cat is a vengeful spirit incarnate, a literal curse of the gods, or one god, on those who violated the guest right. Of course she's not the woman she used to be. Meanwhile, vengeful spirits pass on when they're done with their unfinished business from life. Cat, unfortunately, has a LOT of unfinished business, and I expect her to be around for a while.

My point is that is not about me, I think Arya has or will have grown enough to realize her mother would be better at rest. She was much younger when she asked for Headless Ned back, and I think that Arya herself will feel a certain way about it. Agree to disagree, I guess.

[boojam]

I used to feel the same way, but if Jaqen's mission was to go to the Wall, why didnt he continue there after he got out of the cage?

I stated that incorrectly.

Jaqen (or maybe the FM guild)had surmised that Jaqen did not need to reach the Wall, all he need to do was shadow Arya.

That was Jaqen's assignment, not to go to the Wall.

If it got to far in that direction he would have just disappeared.

As it was his mission to evaluated Arya succeeded... that was all he needed to do, he had no assignment to go to the Wall.

[boojam]

Except he was not. He was locked up and helpless. He he really knew where she was and wanted to tail here much more easy to simply show up and sign up with Yoren for the NW.

If you are a FM and cannot arrange to be were you want to be then you cannot be a FM.

[boojam]

I remember reading somewhere that GRRM was asked why Jaqen was in the black cells and he said "it's a mystery", meaning that he hadn't thought about it at all and he's not going to write a back story about it. Unfortunately, I can't find the quote, so if someone else can, please post it.

From that, I infer that there wasn't any plan that needed him to be in the black cells but rather it was bad luck. Things like that (bad lack, coincidence, be in the wrong place in the wrong time etc) can happen even to the best. From all the (admitedly, vague) info we have been given throughout the series, I believe that the FM are not omniscient and omnipotent. They have exceptional skills, that they acquire by very hard training, expanding in many fields of knowledge. That, plus the face changing 'magic' (which imo is just the icing on the cake) make them special but not immune to mistakes and failures. It minimizes the possibility of failure to a very very small percentage, to be sure, but doesn't totally eliminate it.

They sure would be immune to simple stupid mistakes, else-wise they would or could never have become FM.

[Whitering]

If you are a FM and cannot arrange to be were you want to be then you cannot be a FM.

Nor was he helpless, Rorge and Biter were scared of him and those are two seriously messed up people, or rather, were seriously messed up.

[Brynden Bloodraven Rivers]

Well, I don't want to look all the pages, but I had an idea now, maybe it's already posted here, but...

Mercy found it for him, helped Big Brusco don his boar suit, checked the trick daggers just to make certain no one had replaced one with a real blade (someone had done that at the Dome once, and a mummer had died)

Does that mean that Arya replaced the blades? If Arya = no one, "just to make certain Arya had replaced..."

Maybe it's because she wants chaos to follow Raff's death, so she can escape.