[TWOW Spoilers] March 2014 Chapter Part III

[The Lord of the Waters]

That's the black pool. This was in a separate discussion when they were talking about paying the price. I don't think they're literally dead.

What does drinking from the 'cold cup' mean then? Is this something Arya will do at any point?

I wonder what the reaction will be from the Kindly Man regarding this killing of Raff, for some reason I doubt that she would be 'kicked out' but will likely be disciplined or re-educated for her actions.

[butterbumps!]

Arya having a Key may mean she can go cast a vote? Maybe the FM want to influence who becomes the next sea lord? do Key Holders vote on that perhaps?

Was her Mission alongside just learning Mummery the art of disguise and acting. To steal a Key holders Key, is she supposed to leave the Gate tonight anyway (the and murder, no one but Mercy mentions murder) Seeing raff on her last night at the Gate was a gift... The disappearance of a Lannister Guard will cause trouble for the envoy and the sealord it is said, sorry not Izembaro. Trouble for the Envoy as he will be thinking wtf? where did Raff go I doubt Cersei gives two shits about some random (to her) former bloody Mummer. So why would Harys be hugely concerned about it? The Sealord, how? does she think the envoy might kick up a fuss? I don't think anyone will think much of it tbh. He went off with a girl she's missing her room full of blood, his colegue knows he was a bloody Mummer its hardly a stretch for the Lannister crew to assume Raff killed the girl panicked he might get arrested and ran.

The keyholders as voters is similar to what struck me-- that it might refer to particularly esteemed/ influential members of society along the lines of one who holds the "keys to the city." If the "key" is a signifier of this sort of position, it could be less literal in terms of opening something. Or not, knowing Braavos.

I'm also under the impression that Mercy's murder was a planned event from the outset-- at the opening of the chapter, she mentions that she'll be raped and murdered; at the end of the chapter, she's thinking about the role she's playing in Izembaro's play directly, and only mentions that Izembaro will kill her if she misses her rape (so the murder is referring to Mercy rather than character she's playing there).

I do think there's a mission involved in Arya's stint with the mummers, but I'm not certain that she's the only one who'd have been tasked with some sort of mayhem to cause that night-- I mean, I wonder if causing trouble for the emissary was part of a bigger plan, of which she had a part to play (for example, the Black Pearl's presence is of interest to me).

One thing I hadn't really cared about before, but is bothering me now, is how Ned came across Syrio for hire in KL in a pretty swift amount of time. What's the chance LF has some sort of connection to that, and since we're looking at another Forel now, has something to do with a political play about Westeros now? I don't mean this as a crackpot, but does anyone wonder if there's some sort of Westerosi contact person influencing what we're seeing this chapter? I mean, are readers seeing this as highly contained Braavosi culture and intent, or is the idea of someone from Westeros influencing things to some extent something being considered? (and it needn't be LF specifically; I only mentioned that because of the thick Braavos connection, and the fact he'd sent away for mummers to influence an outcome once before).

[The Lord of the Waters]

The significant change in this kill is that she now cares that they know why exactly they are killed for. She could have killed Raff quickly and unnoticed, but she took great risks in making sure that he knew it was for Lommy. With that in mind, the Freys are the only ones that would make sense to kill as Nymeria IMO.

Have you read the Sworn Sword (Dunc & Egg story)? There, it is explained why such things are important ("the pissing contest"). Whore or no, she's a 'citizen' of Braavos. The Westerosi come to ask for a loan, and start killing the locals? They can't let it go just like that, I'd think.

Also, the Sealord is dying and soon there will be elections (unless it has already happened off screen?). Such events can be used in the 'game', to affect the public image of the rival candidates.

I have not yet read the story unfortunately, though I don't know if the political situation at the time of that story matches the current one in this story?

I see what you are saying, though I still find it difficult to imagine that this killing can cause such a big stir; In that I don't know what kind of reaction to expect and from who. Will the Braavosi make a big deal out of it and direct their anger toward the Envoy from Westeros?

As for the 'elections' I don't know yet how that seems to work; do you think the 'knives coming out' is in reference to political play and mud-slinging/candidate sabotage and not knives literally coming out as in actual violence?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I wonder if the Keyholders are the same as the Masters of this and that in the Seven Kingdoms? Whispers, Justice, Ships, etc.? Maybe Braavosi just names them Keyholders, although......we had Cersei say that her official titles came from the Free Cities, so maybe not? Yup, might have talked myself out of that, although, it could be other Free Cities that Cersei meant. And, I'm trusting Cersei to KNOW what she's talking about, that's a bit crazy.

ETA: I'm so tired I can't think what title change Cersei instituted.

HAHA never trust Cersei to know what she's talking about :P

I think given that there are 9 cities and Bravos is unlike the others that its quite possible they would use a different title for things. After all the rulers of the free cities all have different titles too, Sealord inBravos,the Council of Magisters in Novos, Prince of Pentos, the Archon in Tyrosh, & the Volantene Tryarchy.

Why not have differing names for their lower level administrators too.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

HAHA never trust Cersei to know what she's talking about :P

I think given that there are 9 cities and Bravos is unlike the others that its quite possible they would use a different title for things. After all the rulers of the free cities all have different titles too, Sealord inBravos,the Council of Magisters in Novos, Prince of Pentos, the Archon in Tyrosh, & the Volantene Tryarchy.

Why not have differing names for their lower level administrators too.

I am tired, it even took me awhile to realize I should mention, I'm not trusting Cersei. :blushing:

I have AFFC out, but the back isn't helping me cheat with the answer. The index still has the offices listed under Queen Regent as Master of this and that.

I'm getting the feeling these Keyholders in Braavos are that type of Big Effing Deal, though, along the same lines as Westeros's Small Council, maybe.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

(1) I have not yet read the story unfortunately, though I don't know if the political situation at the time of that story matches the current one in this story?

(2) I see what you are saying, though I still find it difficult to imagine that this killing can cause such a big stir; In that I don't know what kind of reaction to expect and from who. Will the Braavosi make a big deal out of it and direct their anger toward the Envoy from Westeros?

(3) As for the 'elections' I don't know yet how that seems to work; do you think the 'knives coming out' is in reference to political play and mud-slinging/candidate sabotage and not knives literally coming out as in actual violence?

(1) Not much of a match, but in the broader sense of displaying an image of power and its significance, it kind of does.

(2) Oh, I don't know what to expect either. Something like starting negotiations in a bad faith and mistrust, throwing accusations etc would be a very possible outcome though. It might be a reason for these negotiations to fail before they even start.

(3) I suppose it is both. Political play by day and murder by night, so to say...

[ARYa_Nym]

Oh, and you know as for killing and luring there was the prostitute S'Vrone:

“The whore S’vrone is with child. She is not certain of the father, but thinks it might have been that Tyroshi sellsword that she killed.”

Some of the dockside whores were vicious, and sailors fresh from the sea never knew which ones. S’vrone was the worst. Everyone said she had robbed and killed a dozen men, rolling the bodies into the canals to feed the eels.

What does drinking from the 'cold cup' mean then? Is this something Arya will do at any point?
I wonder what the reaction will be from the Kindly Man regarding this killing of Raff, for some reason I doubt that she would be 'kicked out' but will likely be disciplined or re-educated for her actions.

We don't know about the cold cup. GRRM said not too long ago that she's just an acolyte and we shouldn't assume that she'll become no one.

[boojam]

I'm also under the impression that Mercy's murder was a planned event from the outset-- at the opening of the chapter, she mentions that she'll be raped and murdered; at the end of the chapter, she's thinking about the role she's playing in Izembaro's play directly, and only mentions that Izembaro will kill her if she misses her rape (so the murder is referring to Mercy rather than character she's playing there).

Yes that was my impression to.

We are missing a previous chapter or two? where the whole thing is set up as a mission?

Now George can imbue things with double meanings and puzzles for us to figure out.

For instance Mercy says she does not understand the Common Tongue, but we know Arya does, for sure!

So is she playing multiple personalities here? From GRRM's POV writing , Mercy only speaks Bravoosi, but Arya/Mercy speaks both Common Tongue and Braavosi. In fact in the narrative she seems to be speaking Common Tongue well enough... George being a sly devil?

[A Redeemed Hound]

I have a question I hope you can all help with. Who did Cersie send to Bravos? Raff and who else? And was it to talk to the Iron Bank for more gold? I forget.

[boojam]

I have a question I hope you can all help with. Who did Cersie send to Bravos? Raff and who else? And was it to talk to the Iron Bank for more gold? I forget.

How do we know it was Cersie?

Most likely new queen regent.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

The keyholders as voters is similar to what struck me-- that it might refer to particularly esteemed/ influential members of society along the lines of one who holds the "keys to the city." If the "key" is a signifier of this sort of position, it could be less literal in terms of opening something. Or not, knowing Braavos.

I'm also under the impression that Mercy's murder was a planned event from the outset-- at the opening of the chapter, she mentions that she'll be raped and murdered; at the end of the chapter, she's thinking about the role she's playing in Izembaro's play directly, and only mentions that Izembaro will kill her if she misses her rape (so the murder is referring to Mercy rather than character she's playing there).

I do think there's a mission involved in Arya's stint with the mummers, but I'm not certain that she's the only one who'd have been tasked with some sort of mayhem to cause that night-- I mean, I wonder if causing trouble for the emissary was part of a bigger plan, of which she had a part to play (for example, the Black Pearl's presence is of interest to me).

One thing I hadn't really cared about before, but is bothering me now, is how Ned came across Syrio for hire in KL in a pretty swift amount of time. What's the chance LF has some sort of connection to that, and since we're looking at another Forel now, has something to do with a political play about Westeros now? I don't mean this as a crackpot, but does anyone wonder if there's some sort of Westerosi contact person influencing what we're seeing this chapter? I mean, are readers seeing this as highly contained Braavosi culture and intent, or is the idea of someone from Westeros influencing things to some extent something being considered? (and it needn't be LF specifically; I only mentioned that because of the thick Braavos connection, and the fact he'd sent away for mummers to influence an outcome once before).

YES! when she mentions the Hall of Truth as having big copper domes on her journey to the gate, I thought this is a large official sounding building. Then when Daena mentions it again with regard to the Key Holders all being fat, and this one old one, who was so fat that when they called him to the hall of truth to vote his barge sank. I thought, that place again, and of course he's being called to vote which sounds very much like a high office, officaldom and prestige, combine that with the Key Holders having a special tier in the theatre with closed private boxes, and all being fat, ergo wealthy. well. They must be the ruling class. Surely? The Sealord is the leader, but every leader needs a council, right?

Exactly, Bonobo does not say he will rape her soon enough and then kill her and seeing as she is japing that if he continues to push his luck with her and grope her she'll make him a eunuch, well you'd think his retort would include his murdering her later, so there, ner, ner, ner..

She says she'll sleep through her own rape, does not want to be late for her rape etc but the Murder bit is not mentioned with as much frequency almost as if these are two separate events which are both upcoming. Also the way she speaks about leaving the gate, she says Mercy will miss the other Mummers, but it feels less as though this is a sudden realisation, that she has to go and more a planned event, as though she was leaving tonight anyway. She seems very adept at Mummery in this chapter, I think she's been there a while and learned the things she was sent there to learn, she acts a beautiful innocent when Raff see's the blood seeping from his thigh after all. OOh I'm scared make it stop. :lmao: she's a pro!!

Yes I think she was there to learn, not to complete a task, if not for the blasted Key in her pocket I think I'd be certain of that. The Westerosi coming to such a humble play house though is curious, and with such a prestigious courtesan too. hmmmmmm. The play seems almost to be put on precisely to entice the envoy to come to the rough side of town and enter a playhouse which is seldom visited by the upper echelons on society. Of course this could just be a ploy by Izembarro to improve the reputation and prestige of his company...or it could be more sinister. What exactly is the Black Pearl doing with old Swyft, he's not exactly loaded is he, and is after all on a begging mission.

Yea you have placed a pea under my mattress with regard to Syrio and Ned employing him so quickly in KL. How did he find him, where did he come from, who recommended him? Curiouser and curiouser..

Not content with all the many mysteries of ASOIAF ButterBumps brings yet MORE to the table. You devil you..

[ARYa_Nym]

Yea you have placed a pea under my mattress with regard to Syrio and Ned employing him so quickly in KL. How did he find him, where did he come from, who recommended him? Curiouser and curiouser..

Not content with all the many mysteries of ASOIAF ButterBumps brings yet MORE to the table. You devil you..

GRRM answered that in his Spain interview. It's like how did Jaqen end up in the cells. He didn't think it out much.

How did Ned Stark run into Syrio Forel?

Well, I’ve never given it much thought. Ned was searching for a fencing master who could teach Arya, and he knew it couldn’t not be a conventional master at arms or a knight, or the castle master at arms, because he didn’t think his young daughter could handle a broadsword (or maybe longsword) the way man with greater strength in their torso could, so he decided the Braavosi style suited her best. Who was available in the city that might fit the bill? Obviously, somebody had to recommend him to Ned. I believe Syrio must have been in the city at the time, because there wasn’t enough time to send for someone all the way from Braavos.

[The Lord of the Waters]

(1) Not much of a match, but in the broader sense of displaying an image of power and its significance, it kind of does.

(2) Oh, I don't know what to expect either. Something like starting negotiations in a bad faith and mistrust, throwing accusations etc would be a very possible outcome though. It might be a reason for these negotiations to fail before they even start.

(3) I suppose it is both. Political play by day and murder by night, so to say...

I think this could turn into an interesting situation either way. The only slight worry of mine is that, the longer this thing plays out and the more it expands; the longer Arya will be in Braavos. So I really wonder when/where/if Arya is going to go. In some ways for me this story has the potential to go along the lines of Daenerys in Meereen, like a long/drawn out story that doesn't really go anywhere fast.

Oh, and you know as for killing and luring there was the prostitute S'Vrone:

We don't know about the cold cup. GRRM said not to long ago that she's just an acolyte and we shouldn't assume that she'll become no one.

I think it sees likely Arya will never become a fully fledged Faceless Man; But she has made a lot of personal development and we can see from the way she behaves in this Chapter (seducing Raff) itself that she seems to have made a lot of progress since her last assasination.

For some reason I believe she will return to Westeros, as I just think thats where she is destined to go and as I say above, to me, that means that we can't afford some long drawn out saga in Braavos with Arya as our POV.

I wonder also about the difference between the way the 'Ugly girl' face is attached to Arya, and the way Jaqen moves his hand over his face. To me, both imply some kind of sorcery/magic but both in a different way. So I wonder what the difference is.

[DrunkSister]

Considering how Jaqen H'gar operated in Westeros, and how he killed Pate after he made him say he is a thief, IMO Arya has not done anything against the God of Many Faces. Raff is a murderer, child murderer and a rapist, he deserved to die much more than Pate.

So, what can FM blame her for? She broke her cover and killed as Arya, but is there anything else?

I have a question I hope you can all help with. Who did Cersie send to Bravos? Raff and who else? And was it to talk to the Iron Bank for more gold? I forget.

I read a very good breakdown of this last night on the previous version of this tread. Short answer: last we see Harys Swift Kevan (ADwD epilogue) is telling him to hire some of Gregor's men and to go to some free city (can't remember the name) to ask for loan, and if they don't give it, to go to Bravos. Then Kevan gets murdered. We have a gap in the plot here where we don't know what has happened.

It just occurred to me: if Harys Swift went to that city first and negotiated, then went to Bravos, at least several months separate the epilogue from Arya chapter. How does the timeline stand?

[Faceless Man Friday]

I would think that the Westerosi connection to Syrio would more likely be Varys than LF.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

GRRM answered that in his Spain interview. It's like how did Jaqen end up in the cells. He didn't think it out much.

Ahhhhh, I shall sleep well tonight....

I shan't I'll be thinking about the possibillity of Bran calling to Arya through Nymeria in her dreams...calling her North calling her back to her pack.

[The Lord of the Waters]

I agree that there seems to have been a certain amount of time passed before the start of this chapter. Does that mean that other, unreleased Arya chapters precede this one?

George said he wrote this Chapter a long time ago (and edited it) but if he wrote this a long time ago, and there are others to precede it, does that mean possibly that there are quite a few chapters of WoW already completed?

Maybe I shouldn't ask that.. lol

[Han Snow]

This is the last step according to the KM:

“Before you drink from the cold cup, you must offer up all you are to Him of Many Faces. Your body. Your soul. Yourself. If you cannot bring yourself to do that, you must leave this place.”

I hope there is no cold cup for Arya, I hope she abandons FM before that.

And I certainly hope that this does not happen:

"You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

Jon to Arya in GoT

I hope, I wish... Maybe she overcomes her trauma, maybe Jon's love for her saves her... or hers saves him... but rational part of me sees the foreshadowing quite clearly. She'll die.

[butterbumps!]

GRRM answered that in his Spain interview. It's like how did Jaqen end up in the cells. He didn't think it out much.

"Obviously someone must have recommended him" is exactly what I am alluding to. Not that there is anything more in terms of Ned's hiring him, but isn't it passing strange that someone recommends one Forel while he's over in KL, and then we see another Forel writing plays about KL? (and obviously 3 days time implies that Syrio was already there). I'm not sure how that "answers" what I was asking-- for example, we can see from the text that his own men aren't the ones who found him, and that he hadn't spoken to Santagar or Barristan about this yet (we see he would speak to one of them if Syrio's lessons continued to seem insane).

Even without figuring out the specifics of the Forel connection, the broader point I was speaking to is whether anyone suspected some sort of Westerosi influence behind what we saw unfold.

[King Wayne-1st of His Name]

RIP Sir Raff LOL