Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Two small folk questionsDo small folk have last names?andDo small folk use bastard names or is every bastard half noble?Bastards are at least half noble, thought there are also bastards who have two noble parents (like Edric Storm, whose mother is a Florent, and whose father was a Baratheon; Or Daemon Blackfyre, whose parents we both Targaryens). Other people with bastard last names can be the children of bastards. Those children can then chose to alter the name (Renifer Longwaters descents from Jon Waters, for example. The son of Jon Waters, IIRC, was the person who changed the Waters into Longwaters, to try and remove the stain of bastardry). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Do we know the sex of Dany's dragons? I know Aemon's whole thing about first male, then female, changeable blah blah, but that confuses me. Any help would be nice :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 I am sure that are a couple of reason we only heard part of the story she was telling, mostly that the end would give away too much info. I don't agree w/ your theory, mostly because I think that the Last Hero in the current story will be Samwell Tarly.You and 99.9% of this forum. It ain't R+L=J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Interesting read! :) Especially that you noticed that there are exactly 12 people Bran interacted with on his journey.. B)I know, huh? We'll see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Do we know the sex of Dany's dragons? I know Aemon's whole thing about first male, then female, changeable blah blah, but that confuses me. Any help would be nice :) Well, looking at the names, they seem to all be male.. Though there has been no mention of anyone checking that ;) Perhaps due fear of fire? :p I'd say Dany's dragons are dominantly male, but to get themselves some eggs, one of them will eventually have to change sex for at least a while. (or dragons have different habits and ways of producing eggs that we simply don't know of) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Well, looking at the names, they seem to all be male.. Though there has been no mention of anyone checking that ;) Perhaps due fear of fire? :P I'd say Dany's dragons are dominantly male, but to get themselves some eggs, one of them will eventually have to change sex for at least a while. (or dragons have different habits and ways of producing eggs that we simply don't know of) So dragons do change sex? I don't know why this bothers me so much :p Also, I always got the female vibe from Viserion :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Well, looking at the names, they seem to all be male.. Though there has been no mention of anyone checking that ;) Perhaps due fear of fire? :P Tessarion, Syrax, Meleys, Vhagar - they all sound male to me. How does one differentiate between a male and a female dragon name? Furthermore, how would Dany know the gender of her dragons? After all, she is the one who named them. Edit: In fact, it seems that names notwithstanding, all female dragonriders rode female dragons (with the exception of Tessarion/Daeron). Maybe that is a clue? Maybe the dragons take their gender-cue from their first riders? Edit2: And to add a question: do we know (even roughly) in which year Jaeherys and Alysanne made their trip to Winterfell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Tessarion, Syrax, Meleys, Vhagar - they all sound male to me. How does one differentiate between a male and a female dragon name? Furthermore, how would Dany know the gender of her dragons? After all, she is the one who named them. Edit: In fact, it seems that names notwithstanding, all female dragonriders rode female dragons (with the exception of Tessarion/Daeron). Maybe that is a clue? Maybe the dragons take their gender-cue from their first riders? Edit2: And to add a question: do we know (even roughly) in which year Jaeherys and Alysanne made their trip to Winterfell? Queen Visenya rode Vhagar, but Prince Aemond rode Vhagar later. I'm not sure if Vhagar is ever referred to as a he or a she specifically. With Dany being the one who named her dragons, she might have the best chance of knowing. About Jaehaerys and Alysanne, I´m not sure, I´ll look into that, but that might take a while. I do have a question of my own. It might be (meaning: it most likely is) because I'm not a native speaker, but this sentence was Always a bit strange to me: Olyvar Frey held his horse for him, Lord Walder’s son, two years older than Robb, and ten years younger and more anxious. Olyvar Frey is 18 years old as of Storm, when Robb is 16. That is mentioned in appendixes, and the statement "two years older than Robb" that I've quoted. But what is meant by "and ten years younger and more anxious"? Is it meant that, even though Olyvar is 2 years older than Robb, in his behaviour he is 10 years younger? Or how should I read this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Queen Visenya rode Vhagar, but Prince Aemond rode Vhagar later. I'm not sure if Vhagar is ever referred to as a he or a she specifically. With Dany being the one who named her dragons, she might have the best chance of knowing. About Jaehaerys and Alysanne, I´m not sure, I´ll look into that, but that might take a while. I do have a question of my own. It might be (meaning: it most likely is) because I'm not a native speaker, but this sentence was Always a bit strange to me: Olyvar Frey is 18 years old as of Storm, when Robb is 16. That is mentioned in appendixes, and the statement "two years older than Robb" that I've quoted. But what is meant by "and ten years younger and more anxious"? Is it meant that, even though Olyvar is 2 years older than Robb, in his behaviour he is 10 years younger? Or how should I read this?Tgats how I always read it yeah :)And Vhagar is a she dragon I think. Without looking for a quote, I remember she is referred to as "that hoary old bitch". There may be other quotes more explicit though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Queen Visenya rode Vhagar, but Prince Aemond rode Vhagar later. I'm not sure if Vhagar is ever referred to as a he or a she specifically. With Dany being the one who named her dragons, she might have the best chance of knowing. About Jaehaerys and Alysanne, I´m not sure, I´ll look into that, but that might take a while. I do have a question of my own. It might be (meaning: it most likely is) because I'm not a native speaker, but this sentence was Always a bit strange to me: Olyvar Frey is 18 years old as of Storm, when Robb is 16. That is mentioned in appendixes, and the statement "two years older than Robb" that I've quoted. But what is meant by "and ten years younger and more anxious"? Is it meant that, even though Olyvar is 2 years older than Robb, in his behaviour he is 10 years younger? Or how should I read this?It means he's much less mature. Whereas Robb is calm cool and collected Olyvar is jumpy. I'm reading the middle of Game right now, and I'm really noticing Robb's character development. He was just a boy when he's started down from WF, but by the time of your passage he has grown into a military commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindchap Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Just a note on the gender of the dragons, GRRM uses the masculine pronoun he when referring to them in Dany's chapters, so I think it's a safe bet that Dany at least thinks they are all male. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Queen Visenya rode Vhagar, but Prince Aemond rode Vhagar later. I'm not sure if Vhagar is ever referred to as a he or a she specifically. Sorry, I meant first riders, I clarified it in the edit. My point was that every she-dragon we hear about (with the exception of Tessarion) is either outright stated, or hinted at having had a female Targaryen as first rider - Vhagar/Visenya, Dreamfyre/Rhaena, Silverwing/Alysanne and so forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Sorry, I meant first riders, I clarified it in the edit. My point was that every she-dragon we hear about (with the exception of Tessarion) is either outright stated, or hinted at having had a female Targaryen as first rider - Vhagar/Visenya, Dreamfyre/Rhaena, Silverwing/Alysanne and so forth.Meraxes was also a she dragon wasnt she? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Meraxes was also a she dragon wasnt she? Yes, but both her and Vhagar were old by the time of the conquest, so it's possible that Visenya and Rhaenys weren't their first riders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 It would not surprise me if we found out dragons are in that rare category of animal that can change sex when needed. It could be that they are all born male, like the clownfish, with the dominant male turning into a female when reproduction is required, or maybe when they are ridden by a woman, with the scent of female hormones effecting the change. We don't know, because virtually all the books about dragons have been destroyed. Here is a story about 7 creatures who can either mimic both sexes or change: http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2013/09/22/7-gender-bending-animals/ And here is the story I find fascinating, about Finding Nemo. Clownfish are all born male. The fish in their sea groups have a dominant male and a dominant female. The dominant male turns itself into a female, and when she dies, the dominant male that was her partner becomes the dominant female and a new dominant male takes her side. It would not surprise me if GRRM has something like that up his sleeve. Also, the Valyrian language has no gender: what better reason to explain this fact than their most important creature has none either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumHam Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Also, the Valyrian language has no gender: what better reason to explain this fact than their most important creature has none either? I've seen other people make this claim but I can find nothing to back it up in the books. The fact that one of the few Valyrian words we do know means "little brother" would seem to contradict it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 I've seen other people make this claim but I can find nothing to back it up in the books. The fact that one of the few Valyrian words we do know means "little brother" would seem to contradict it. Iirc, Aemon talks about the fact that the writers had been confused about the prophecies about Azor Ahai, using the word he when it could also be she. In his ramblings to Sam, on the ship, or in Braavos. I don't have a copy of the books in a searchable format. This point is regularly brought up in threads about Cersei's prophecy. Valonqar has been interpreted as "little brother" because Westeros is a patriarchal society, but it could just as well mean "little sister". I'm sorry, I've been reading this for more than 2 years in these threads, I would have to dig through actual books to find the quotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Also, the Valyrian language has no gender: what better reason to explain this fact than their most important creature has none either? Just because the Valyrian word for prince is gender neutral doesn't mean that every other noun is gender neutral, too. I'm sorry, I've been reading this for more than 2 years in these threads, I would have to dig through actual books to find the quotes. Here you go: “No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought. The smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Thank-you TheCrannogDweller! The error crept in from translation What would be the translation error? Someone who speaks a language in a country where gender is extremely important translates gender neutral words into words that reflect their bias. Why wouldn't valonqar also be gender neutral - because you live in a patriarchal society, it has to be male? :P What does Syrio say about seeing? :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Do we know why the defiance at Duskendale took place? Seems like a pretty terrible plan to me. Did the lord there ask for a ransom, or independence, or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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