Jump to content

R+L =J, v. 77


TerraPrime

Recommended Posts

As far as the fisherman's daughter, I think GRRM is just having some fun with the readers; i.e., red herring. :)

I don't think it's even a herring of any color :D

The whole exchange was like, "Dude, I heard about that Stark bastard. I knew Ned Stark, you know. I heard he was like high on shrooms"

Not literally, but basically that's the feeling I got by this exchange.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its basically obvious that Jon Snow is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. There is just so much pointing to it. I wonder what his real name is..?

Jon just seems like a cover name to make him seem of the North, its probably Aeron or something

I personally would love it if Rhaegar had originally wanted Jon to be named Aemon. Not after the Dragonknight, but rather Maester Aemon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If that's the case, R+L=J should almost be considered "confirmed." If it's just AGOT, then that that excludes the KotLT story. This means that the best evidence for Ashara being the mother (by either Ned or Brandon) is gone as well. All we get to the contrary of R+L=J in AGOT is Ned's one remark about Wylla and Cat remembering that she heard a rumor about Ashara.

Uhm, no. The Eddard chapter before Robert Baratheon is dying it is Cersei & Eddard who have a meeting. And Cersei snaps at Eddard (about bastards), mentioning Ashara as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Isn't that an interesting point then? Winterfel was full of rumours of Ashara before Eddard silenced them. And now Cersei brings up that same rumour, eg she knew there was something between Eddard & Ashara. Why would she otherwise connect the names?


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not really. People know Ned was at Starfall at the end of the rebellion. People also know Ashara was pregnant and jumped off a tower some time after.



However, Ashara doesn't fit the timeline; Jon was conceived around the time Ned married Cat, i.e. after the start of the rebellion. I don't really see how they would have had contact in that time; Harwin, who was part of Ned's army, only knows about the meeting at Harrenhal one year before the rebellion and Starfall at the very end of it. No mingling in between.



Also, Ned never even thinks of Jon as his own son - or of Ashara, for that matter. But if Catelyn is right, Ned must have loved Jon's mother a lot... when the only two women of their generation Ned thinks about in loving terms are Cat... and Lyanna. (Very different kinds of love of course.)


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Isn't that an interesting point then? Winterfel was full of rumours of Ashara before Eddard silenced them. And now Cersei brings up that same rumour, eg she knew there was something between Eddard & Ashara. Why would she otherwise connect the names?

Famous young nobleman A went to the opposite end of a continent after most of a year away from home winning a rebellion against the crown, and visited legendary House X to return a fabled House heirloom, the spoils of war.

Beautiful young noblewoman B from House X, with a sordid past involving disgrace from court and a pregnancy, commits suicide at the same time.

Famous young nobleman A returns home with a bastard son.

Every man, woman and dog in westeros who has literally no idea of the facts or personalities involved is going to assume Ned and Ashara had an affair and Jon is the product of that affair. Cersei's just another one of them.

Note that no one actually connected to any of the involved parties seems to think Ned was involved with Ashara. Robert doesn't - he knows his never-the-boy-you-were friend Ned wouldn't have done that to an unmarried noblewoman. The Daynes don't - they tell of a Ned and Ashara being in love, but claim Wylla is Jon's mother, which is rather inconsistent and not surprising when the source was probably not even born at the time. Catelyn is only askin about the rumours she hears from others. Harlan doesn't think so, just that it wouldn't be shameful were it true at Harrenhal, two years before Jon is born. Even the KotLT stroy doesn;t actually show anything romantic between Ned and Ashara, once you take the rose tinted specs off and actually read it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Isn't that an interesting point then? Winterfel was full of rumours of Ashara before Eddard silenced them. And now Cersei brings up that same rumour, eg she knew there was something between Eddard & Ashara. Why would she otherwise connect the names?

Very early on in GoT Ned reflects that he never partook of extramarital sex. "not something that they could lay at his door"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very early on in GoT Ned reflects that he never partook of extramarital sex. "not something that they could lay at his door"

Quote? Cause given Jon's age isn't this essentially proof that he isn't Ned's son? I mean, I was convinced already, but that would be one heck of a piece of evidence for people trying to deny R+L.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote? Cause given Jon's age isn't this essentially proof that he isn't Ned's son? I mean, I was convinced already, but that would be one heck of a piece of evidence for people trying to deny R+L.

I will dig it up, later, if Ygrain doesn't beat me to it, since she has already posted that quote at least once before. We even hear from Robert, "You were never the boy that you were."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm afraid the quote isn't conclusive enough for those who do not wish to see, if you mean this one:



Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm afraid the quote isn't conclusive enough for those who do not wish to see, if you mean this one:

Robert Baratheon had always been a man of huge appetites, a man who knew how to take his pleasures. That was not a charge anyone could lay at the door of Eddard Stark.

True. I suppose people could argue that this just points to Ned's dour nature, not that it means he's never taken a single pleasure in his life. But seeing as this is in Ned's POV, it's pretty telling. Coupled with his rigid, Northern honor code and all that...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

True. I suppose people could argue that this just points to Ned's dour nature, not that it means he's never taken a single pleasure in his life. But seeing as this is in Ned's POV, it's pretty telling. Coupled with his rigid, Northern honor code and all that...

Yeah, when I came across it the first time, I thought it was pretty hilarious having Ned basically say "I've never had extramarital sex. Well, Jon... he's my blood and that's all you need to know" :D

I've picked on a little aspect of something that has been noted before:

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

Now, what did Sansa plead?

Stop them,” Sansa pleaded, “don’t let them do it, please, please, it wasn’t Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can’t, it wasn’t Lady, don’t let them hurt Lady, I’ll make her be good, I promise, I promise …”

I think it may not be just the parallel of Sansa's pleading for an innocent and Robert turning away that made Ned think of Lyanna, but perhaps even the phrasing itself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've picked on a little aspect of something that has been noted before:

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

Now, what did Sansa plead?

Stop them,” Sansa pleaded, “don’t let them do it, please, please, it wasn’t Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can’t, it wasn’t Lady, don’t let them hurt Lady, I’ll make her be good, I promise, I promise …”

I think it may not be just the parallel of Sansa's pleading for an innocent and Robert turning away that made Ned think of Lyanna, but perhaps even the phrasing itself.

Good point! That's certainly another subtlety that adds to the case.

For me, just the word "plead" stuck out on my first read. I mean, if she wanted her bones to be in Winterfell, I get that, but why would she have to plead about it? To me, pleading is usually on someone else's behalf (probably because of its legal usage today), but I'm just not sure how someone can read that passage you just quoted and think this is about Lyanna's resting place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good point! That's certainly another subtlety that adds to the case.

For me, just the word "plead" stuck out on my first read. I mean, if she wanted her bones to be in Winterfell, I get that, but why would she have to plead about it? To me, pleading is usually on someone else's behalf (probably because of its legal usage today), but I'm just not sure how someone can read that passage you just quoted and think this is about Lyanna's resting place.

It's even better if you take a look at the whole context:

“Why should Tyrion Lannister want Bran dead? The boy has never done him harm.”

“Do you Starks have nought but snow between your ears?” Littlefinger asked. “The Imp would never have acted alone.”

Ned rose and paced the length of the room. “If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself … no, I will not believe that.”

Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert’s talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

“Most likely the king did not know,” Littlefinger said. “It would not be the first time. Our good Robert is practiced at closing his eyes to things he would rather not see.”

Ned had no reply for that. The face of the butcher’s boy swam up before his eyes, cloven almost in two, and afterward the king had said not a word.

There is no way Lyanna's wish to be buried at Winterfell might fit into the context of Robert turning away from or even personally ordering murders of children.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I cannot stop reading all the info on this app. There is sooooo much about R+L=J.



Here is a little tidbit about some laws in Westeros and the possible inheritance....



"The council considered the claims of the daughter of Maekar's deceased eldest son, Dareon the Drunken, but rejected her becasue of her sex and because she was slow of wits."



---So Kingship and being the heir really doesnt matter that much if the council agrees that there is a better alternative out there.



"They also considered the infant son of deceased Prince Aerion, called Brightflame (or Brightfire)--an infamous figure who had killed himself by drinking the widlfire that he believed would transform him into a dragon; for obvious reasons, the son was passed over."



--So not only could the council choose someone to be king who they thought would be better, they can also pass over a legit heir because his father was crazy.




"This left Prince Aegon, and his surviving elder brother Aemon, by that time a Maester of the Citadel. Those opposed to Aegon were numerous enough that a serious inquiry was made into releasing Aemon from his vows, but Maester Aemon refused them. So Aegon ascended the throne as Aegon V--called the Fortunate and the Unlikely."



Wow---I think you can all see what this means for our boy Jon should the Wall not fall, and should he be held to his vows after his lineage comes to light........If a Great Council is called to determine the kingship, they can "release him from his vows", if they want to. If Aemon can be released from his vows as a Maester (when there are plenty of other legit heirs out there) then Jon can be released from his vows to the NW.


Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's more. I have a huge parallel between Aegon V and Jon that I never saw before.......



This is from the Aegon V page on the WOIAF app;



"Aegon offered his brother Aemon a place in KL, but fearing that those opposed to Aegon would try to still use him, Aemon instead departed for the Wall to take up vows of the Night's Watch."



So this is huge to me; Aegon V (Egg) becomes king and sends his elder Maester brother to the Wall to join to NW, so that no one would try to use him, against his will, for their own purposes. Aegon is looking out for Aemon by agreeing to let him go to the Wall, trying to save him from who he is and his Targaryen fate to rule or be involved with the ruling of the 7K..........Now that is how Aemon gets to the wall, and how does he leave?



Jon sends him back to Oldtown and the Citadel to save him from who he is. To save him from Stannis/Mel burning him alive for their own purposes. Aegon, as a young man, sends Aemon to the wall to protect him and Jon sends him away from the wall 50+ years later also to protect him from the fact that he is a Targaryen of the royal bloodline. Now IMHO, it could not be more obvious that Jon is meant to be shown as a member of this same family. He cares for Aemon the same way Aegon did, and we all know from D&E that Egg is basically a good person and legitimately cares about his brother Aemon, well so does Jon. :)


Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's more. I have a huge parallel between Aegon V and Jon that I never saw before.......

This is from the Aegon V page on the WOIAF app;

"Aegon offered his brother Aemon a place in KL, but fearing that those opposed to Aegon would try to still use him, Aemon instead departed for the Wall to take up vows of the Night's Watch."

So this is huge to me; Aegon V (Egg) becomes king and sends his elder Maetser brother to the Wall to join to NW to protect Aemon, so that no one would try to use him, against his will, for their own purposes. Aegon is looking out for Aemon by agreeing to let him go to the Wall, trying to save him from who he is and his Targaryen fate to rule or be involved with the ruling of the 7K..........Now that is how Aemon gets to the wall, and how does he leave?

Jon sends him back to Oldtown and the Citadel to save him from who he is. To save him from Stannis/Mel burning him alive for their own purposes. Aegon, as a young man, sends Aemon to the wall to protect him and Jon sends him away from the wall 50+ years later also to protect him from the fact that he is a Targaryen of the royal bloodline. Now IMHO, it could not be more obvious that Jon is meant to be shown as a member of this same family. He cares for Aemon the same way Aegon did, and we all know from D&E that Egg is basically a good person and legitimately cares about his brother Aemon, well so does Jon. :)

You may be misreading it a bit, Aegon didn't choose to send Aemon to the wall to protect him, Aemon chose to go to the wall to protect Aegon. Aemon also took his vows very seriously as even after Summerhall and Roberts rebellion he stayed at the wall.

Has anyone read the latest at not a blog? Winds not coming till 2018 and no more sample chapters either? Going to be a long f****** wait. So is Dany fireproof and what about that KG speech?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...