R+L =J, v. 77

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Exactly.

Could it be that the Rogue Prince is only out as of June 17th? That's what I noted down. Those threads, if they exist (and I think I saw one or so), is just speculation, I think.

Edit: :ninja: 'ed

:D

I wouldn't call it speculation, I'd call it the tiny bits of info that we have, and our hopefull wishes :)

[Ghost's Shadow]

:lol: Prettier words, okay. :P

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Oh, and we make predictions... Though they most likely fall in the same category as hopefull wishes.. :blushing: But things like GRRM's comments on who died first (Jaehaerys or Alysanne), which dragon Viserys I rode, etc, those are in there :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Well of course Egg didn't want him to go, Egg was good people. Interesting that he sent the Bloodraven with him, and yes he is now "the" Bloodraven. Sent Dunk as well.

Yes, but dont you see the parallel between Jon and Aegon? How they were both wrapped up in Aemons life and well being. I just think it is a clear indication that Jon is also related to these people.

[Ser Creighton]

Yes, but dont you see the parallel between Jon and Aegon? How they were both wrapped up in Aemons life and well being. I just think it is a clear indication that Jon is also related to these people.

Well I see the relationship between the two, though I am not so sure it's a parallel, though there stories may contain some parallels. Jone was placed in hiding, Egg went into hiding, the Egg symbolism, but I tend to look at the parallel as inverse, much like Sam would be the Inverse of Dunk. Both loyal companions, but Sam clearly serves Jon where Egg was serving Dunk, Both men are big though one is rather round, and the other is rather a huge walking Tree. Sam is all brains with some surprising Brawn and Dunk is all Brawn with some surprising brains. Dunk of course serves an order all in White and Sam the inverse. And yes I have heard somewhere that Jon may be a Targ, though I don't remember where it was. Hmmmmmm thinking, thinking, nope can't think of the thread but it's out there I promise you that.

[Lyse Stark]

These reasons are not so obvious for me. It was right to pass over Daeron's lackwit daughter (if she was really lackwit) but Aerion's son was the rightful king. There existed more dangerous or more crackpot kings than Aerion. Besides, it is not a given that the boy would be as crazy as his father. The Great Council had no right in this. I think Egg should have been the regent and the Hand of this boy. He can even marry one of his daughters to him and all would be well. Instead, he ended up usurping the birtright of the boy.

I hope it does not work that way. I hope people accept Jon mainly because of saving the realm.

Maybe you should take Roose Bolton's saying about boy lords being the woe of their lands seriously, the point is that they passed over Aerion's son because they needed a strong military leader. A boy king is easy picking, as shown with Robert Arryn and Tommen, and they would be easily manipulated.

[WhiteOwl18]

I hope it does not work that way. I hope people accept Jon mainly because of saving the realm.

I definitely agree with that. Whoever sits on the IT in the end (if it still exists), should earn it.

[Ygrain]

I've recently realised a discrepancy which I do not recall discussed. In the HotU vision, we have

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name.

If that was indeed an image of the past, that would mean that Rhaegar fought afoot. However, in Ned's recollection in AGOT, we have

The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert’s hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it.

It makes more sense for them to fight on horseback; however, there is a slight problem - Ned actually never saw the combat:

When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

Where am I going with this? I've always wondered what exactly Jorah Mormont meant when he said:

Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honourably. And Rhaegar died.

I started to wonder: would it be possible that both accounts are actually true? That the fight started on horseback but Robert fell off his horse (perhaps when he took a wound from Rhaegar), and Rhaegar dismounted because it was the honourable thing to do?

We do have another example of a renowned warrior whose honour cost him his life, after all:

Daemon fought "like the Warrior himself". He defeated Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard in single combat. Then, instead of attacking Prince Maekar's forces, he defended the wounded Corbray and had him carried off the field.

In the mean time, Brynden Rivers and his personal guard of archers, the Raven's Teeth, had found a spot from which they could rain their arrows down upon Daemon's position. Daemon and his twin 12 year old sons, Aemon and Aegon, were killed.

[Ygrain]

Oh, and I've come over this:

Pycelle’s breathing was rapid and shallow. “All I did, I did for House Lannister.” A sheen of sweat covered the broad dome of the old man’s brow, and wisps of white hair clung to his wrinkled skin. “Always . . . for years . . . your lord father, ask him, I was ever his true servant . . . ’twas I who bid Aerys open his gates . . .”

That took Tyrion by surprise. He had been no more than an ugly boy at Casterly Rock when the city fell. “So the Sack of King’s Landing was your work as well?”

“For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king . . . I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly . . .”

“How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?”

How did Pycelle betray Rhaegar, or why does Tyrion think so?

[Chebyshov]

How did Pycelle betray Rhaegar, or why does Tyrion think so?

Maybe Tyrion just meant that persuading Aerys to open the gates was a betrayal to Rhaegar, even if it was just to his memory. It was a betrayal to all of House Targ, at any rate.

I like your theory about Rhaegar hopping off his horse. That sounds like a very Rhaegary thing to do. I could also easily see Jon doing something similar :cool4:

[Ygrain]

Maybe Tyrion just meant that persuading Aerys to open the gates was a betrayal to Rhaegar, even if it was just to his memory. It was a betrayal to all of House Targ, at any rate.

I like your theory about Rhaegar hopping off his horse. That sounds like a very Rhaegary thing to do. I could also easily see Jon doing something similar :cool4:

He might also mean that the Sack led directly to the deaths of Rhaegar's family, but I still find it a weird way to phrase. Pycelle was in a position to harm Rhaegar somehow - tampering with his correspondence, revealing some secrets, lying about or worsening Elia's condition...

How would Tyrion know that, though?

[Assertia]

I have one question regarding this theory. If it is true, then Jon is an important person to a lot of people for more than his own charm, so why would he be allowed to become a brother of the Night's Watch, not the prettiest, safest place in my opinion?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I have one question regarding this theory. If it is true, then Jon is an important person to a lot of people for more than his own charm, so why would he be allowed to become a brother of the Night's Watch, not the prettiest, safest place in my opinion?

No one 'allowed' him. Ned couldnt think of a better place for him to go, and Benjen was in the NW and JOn wanted to go, and Catelyn didnt want him at WF. I agree that it was a poor decision on Ned's part to let him go.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Ned's main problem was that he thought everyone was like him; with honour. So once Jon joined the Watch it would mean that he was outside of political influence, yet we see from people like Cersei that even a Snow-Stark remains a target.

[Buried Treasure]

From Ned's perspective R+L=J did not make Jon important, Robert was his king, not Rhaegar's heir.

Jon was important to Ned as his beloved sister's son, and Ned gave him a mostly happy childhood which was full of more love than many Westerosi children get. Then Ned agreed to Jon having the same life that his own brother had gone to at a slightly older age.

[Han Snow]

The story won't be released until June 17th :). The thread in which the story is discussed currently is a discussion on everything we know prior to the release.. All the little bits on info that GRRM told on his blog, and all the little things that Ran tells us about it's contents.

This is the thread about the Rogue Prince. I guess when the story is released, either the discussion will continue there, or a new thread will be made, just as happened with the Princess and the Queen.

Aww *sigh*. I saw the amazon link on the left and thought it was out.

[Ser Creighton]

I've recently realised a discrepancy which I do not recall discussed. In the HotU vision, we have

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name.

If that was indeed an image of the past, that would mean that Rhaegar fought afoot. However, in Ned's recollection in AGOT, we have

The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert’s hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it.

It makes more sense for them to fight on horseback; however, there is a slight problem - Ned actually never saw the combat:

When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

Where am I going with this? I've always wondered what exactly Jorah Mormont meant when he said:

Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honourably. And Rhaegar died.

I started to wonder: would it be possible that both accounts are actually true? That the fight started on horseback but Robert fell off his horse (perhaps when he took a wound from Rhaegar), and Rhaegar dismounted because it was the honourable thing to do?

We do have another example of a renowned warrior whose honour cost him his life, after all:

Daemon fought "like the Warrior himself". He defeated Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard in single combat. Then, instead of attacking Prince Maekar's forces, he defended the wounded Corbray and had him carried off the field.

In the mean time, Brynden Rivers and his personal guard of archers, the Raven's Teeth, had found a spot from which they could rain their arrows down upon Daemon's position. Daemon and his twin 12 year old sons, Aemon and Aegon, were killed.

More than likely they ended up on foot in the battle, rivers make for really bad footing. Though via the power of imagination, I tend to think Rhaegar had Robert and called for him to yield. Though I always thought Robert was on his knees and had been disarmed with his hammer in the water. Robert buys a little time, gets his hand on the Hammer and hits him with the spiked end. That's why Rhaegar couldn't dodge it, he couldn't see the hammer till to late. Or the horses fell and Rhaegar yielded but Robert killed him anyway or Robert beat him flat out and what Mormont said was a metaphor for having to be ruthless at times.

Oh, and I've come over this:

Pycelle’s breathing was rapid and shallow. “All I did, I did for House Lannister.” A sheen of sweat covered the broad dome of the old man’s brow, and wisps of white hair clung to his wrinkled skin. “Always . . . for years . . . your lord father, ask him, I was ever his true servant . . . ’twas I who bid Aerys open his gates . . .”

That took Tyrion by surprise. He had been no more than an ugly boy at Casterly Rock when the city fell. “So the Sack of King’s Landing was your work as well?”

“For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king . . . I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly . . .”

“How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me . . . King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?”

How did Pycelle betray Rhaegar, or why does Tyrion think so?

Well Rhaegar's children were next in line for the throne and Dickhead made the choice to betray all the Targs. Betraying his family is betraying Rhaegar, I mean his kids were slaughtered and so was his wife by Lannister men. He admits he was trying to get Tywin on the throne, so he betrayed all the Targs for the Lannisters. Aerys is crazy, but it's still a betrayal. He basically ends the Dynasty and Rhaegar's line, known line at least.

[Ser Creighton]

Aww *sigh*. I saw the amazon link on the left and thought it was out.

Well it's only an abridged version, there will also be a full version some years from now in Fire and Blood the story of house Targaryen. Which is clearly Martins favorite subject as he writes more about them than anyone else. Which kind of suggest that certain obvious and obscure Targs are not Red Herrings. The legendary queen of fire blood, titles, titles, the Dragon rider, the Stormborn, more title, the Silver lady, Mother of dragons, more titles, breaker of chains, the unburnt. And Jon I burnt my hand Snow. He really needs to pick up the pace and stop laying around in the snow. You know there is an evil zombie ice army out there and Jon is taking a nap. Really Jon? A couple of scratches and it's nap time? Dany's waking dragons and freeing slaves and Jon is sleeping. I mean it's kind of rude, he missed the battle of the fist because he had a date with Yiggy and now he is sleeping, while Dany is doing all the work, well Dany and Ghost. Thank god for Ghost, probably does all Jon's paper work when Jon is sleeping. I mean come on the first time the Wights came the dude was sleeping and Ghost woke him up and then had to save him from one Zombie, even Sam took out an Other, and he did it with a pointy Rock. Really the boy is slacking. Ghost found the Dragonglass, Ghost reminded him of his duty, Ghost saved his life, Ghost sleeps at his feet and lets his warm puppy breath brush over Jon's frozen toes.

Val goes and gets the Member that walks, Sam is trying to find weapons to stop the Others, while Jon is playing Risk with Stannis. Even Tyrion left Jon to go to Dany cause he was like yeah this is lame, sure it took him a little time but that was his plan all along. Probably not a real Targ, Jon is probably not even a Stark either, probably the son of the fisherman and and his daughter. After the daughter probably said she was going to incest marry Jon when he got older Ned purchased him for a bottle of cheap wine and then didn't tell him about his mother because it just grossed him out. Then he ran this really long running joke on Cat, just cause she is totally insecure and Ned has a dark sense of humor. Lyanna isn't even in the crypts he was just messing with Robert.

[Lyse Stark]

Well it's only an abridged version, there will also be a full version some years from now in Fire and Blood the story of house Targaryen. Which is clearly Martins favorite subject as he writes more about them than anyone else. Which kind of suggest that certain obvious and obscure Targs are not Red Herrings. The legendary queen of fire blood, titles, titles, the Dragon rider, the Stormborn, more title, the Silver lady, Mother of dragons, more titles, breaker of chains, the unburnt. And Jon I burnt my hand Snow. He really needs to pick up the pace and stop laying around in the snow. You know there is an evil zombie ice army out there and Jon is taking a nap. Really Jon? A couple of scratches and it's nap time? Dany's waking dragons and freeing slaves and Jon is sleeping. I mean it's kind of rude, he missed the battle of the fist because he had a date with Yiggy and now he is sleeping, while Dany is doing all the work, well Dany and Ghost. Thank god for Ghost, probably does all Jon's paper work when Jon is sleeping. I mean come on the first time the Wights came the dude was sleeping and Ghost woke him up and then had to save him from one Zombie, even Sam took out an Other, and he did it with a pointy Rock. Really the boy is slacking. Ghost found the Dragonglass, Ghost reminded him of his duty, Ghost saved his life, Ghost sleeps at his feet and lets his warm puppy breath brush over Jon's frozen toes.

Val goes and gets the Member that walks, Sam is trying to find weapons to stop the Others, while Jon is playing Risk with Stannis. Even Tyrion left Jon to go to Dany cause he was like yeah this is lame, sure it took him a little time but that was his plan all along. Probably not a real Targ, Jon is probably not even a Stark either, probably the son of the fisherman and and his daughter. After the daughter probably said she was going to incest marry Jon when he got older Ned purchased him for a bottle of cheap wine and then didn't tell him about his mother because it just grossed him out. Then he ran this really long running joke on Cat, just cause she is totally insecure and Ned has a dark sense of humor. Lyanna isn't even in the crypts he was just messing with Robert.

Actually your sarcasm is turning us off. GRRM writes with a purpose in mind. The moon and sun parallels in Dany and Jon's arc actually make them foils. And I think he plans to have Dany go down a path that is destructive, both outwardly and in self and in order to show us that sometimes violence and conquest is not the best way to attain goals. So if the prophecy seems to be obiviously fulfilled by one person, then the twist might point to another person. So in that point, Dany is a red herring, used to distract others from looking at the true subject of the prophecy.

[Alia of the knife]

I've recently realised a discrepancy which I do not recall discussed. In the HotU vision, we have

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a womans name.

If that was indeed an image of the past, that would mean that Rhaegar fought afoot. However, in Ned's recollection in AGOT, we have

The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Roberts hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it.

It makes more sense for them to fight on horseback; however, there is a slight problem - Ned actually never saw the combat:

When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

Where am I going with this? I've always wondered what exactly Jorah Mormont meant when he said:

Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honourably. And Rhaegar died.

I started to wonder: would it be possible that both accounts are actually true? That the fight started on horseback but Robert fell off his horse (perhaps when he took a wound from Rhaegar), and Rhaegar dismounted because it was the honourable thing to do?

We do have another example of a renowned warrior whose honour cost him his life, after all:

Daemon fought "like the Warrior himself". He defeated Ser Gwayne Corbray of the Kingsguard in single combat. Then, instead of attacking Prince Maekar's forces, he defended the wounded Corbray and had him carried off the field.

In the mean time, Brynden Rivers and his personal guard of archers, the Raven's Teeth, had found a spot from which they could rain their arrows down upon Daemon's position. Daemon and his twin 12 year old sons, Aemon and Aegon, were killed.

I think that is exactly how the fight went down, because indeed, Rhaegar almost killed Robert.

And I'll even speculate that in the end, Robert, though wounded, managed to do something dirty and "cheated" by their standards.

So even in fighting, Robert still came up wanting.