Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 5! (DwD)

[Maia]

Wow, you guys are almost done with the re-read! Alas, various distractions kept me away and I am still desperately trying to catch up, so I'll make a few general observations about the already covered material.

Please, forgive lack of proper attributions for the older stuff, since the amount of awesome discussion by y'all is just too massive. Anyway:

I was really struck by the observation how the "heroes" Robb pretended to be during their childhood game fit Robb's fate to a T:

Daeron the Young Dragon, who also used a goat path in his conquest of Dorne and also had a naval assault as an integral part of his strategy, which succeeded in his case, since it was lead by the loyal Alyn Velaryon, rather than the treacherous and ultimately powerless ward/foster-brother Theon. Still, both plans for conquest of Dorne/The Westerlands were strickingly similar. And wasn't it revealed somewhere (So Spake Martin?) that Daeron I was also murdered treacherously and taboo-breakingly, at a parley? So, the parallels are really, really close.

Florian the Fool is famous for the maxime that "All men are knights and all men are fools, where women are concerned", which, again fits Robb's Jeyne Westerling situation exactly. He was certainly both there! Also, after reading "The Princess and the Queen", I somehow got a feeling that the story of Florian and Jonquil is a tragedy.

So, what are we supposed to think about Jon's picks in the game, if Robb's turned out to be so prophetic? Aemon the Dragonknight, a famous warrior - and maybe commander? Great knight, who while himself royal, spent all his life in service of the crown, giving up his birthright and ultimately died for his (unworthy) king and brother. Hm...

Ryam Redwyne - another great warrior and Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, who failed miserably as Hand of the King.

Could these be hints that Jon is going to be a great warrior/military leader, but is not intended to rule? I confess that I have never noticed the highly predictive nature of Robb's picks in the games myself, so this is very interesting. And certainly would be an interesting deviation from Arthurian archetype where Jon is concerned.

Another thing that I did notice previously, but became kinda blatant to me when dissected like that, is that I absolutely can't fathom how Slynt could have risen so high while being such a fool. We now know that previously position of the commander of the City Watch was even occupied by royal princes. And that Slynt's immediate predessor was noble - a Stokeworth.

Surely, Slynt had to have something extraordinary to recommend him, to be picked by Jon Arryn? Even if it was with LF's backing . BTW, my opinion of his Handship keeps plummeting the more we learn about his actions and appointments.

I could understand Slynt being puffed up and careless with Tyrion, flying off his elevation and Cersei's neglect to punish him for his role in Ned's death. But his abrupt fall should have made whatever qualities allowed him to climb so high come back to the fore.

Not to mention - if Cersei and Joffrey didn't protect him right there in KL, why did he have such trust that Tywin Lannister would somehow protect him at the Wall?!

Anyway, we know that Jon really didn't have any workable alternatives re: Slynt's punishment, because we know how it went with Tyrion. Slynt was also cowed and begging for mercy when he thought that Tyrion would summarily execute him, only to immediately become cocky and insulting, once it became clear that he'd be left alive.

And finally, great find by Bemused (I think, forgive me if I am wrong), that the mountain clans _were_ contacted by NW, that they _can_ be reached by ravens. Their non-reaction is completely inexplicable to me, because surely they had to know that they'd be the first to suffer if the wildlings _did_ get through? Nor were they depleted by Robb's war or in any danger from the Ironborn or the Boltons. Was it the "Musgood effect", as has been suggested? I.e. that they didn't believe that a wildling horde could be effectively stopped at the Wall, that they'd be able to squeeze through somewhere anyway and they should be prepared to defend themselves? Then why are they so ready to follow Stannis, when the wildling problem isn't completely solved yet?

In any case, they provide a bit of a fly in the ointment of Jon's argument for needing the wildlings to protect the Wall. If _they_ could be convinced to help out, then the wildlings wouldn't be needed. Stannis was able to convince them easily enough... And he is leading them south yet again, away from the Wall and the encroaching Others/wights. Hm...

Now to the more recent matters:

I have to agree that Jon's solution to the Stannis problem was quite ingenious. OTOH, it does bring him even closer to partisanship. At least, this advice was given in private.

But what are we supposed to think about Jon's lack of attempts to contact the Boltons. He sent the "paper shield" to KL, but Roose Bolton is a northman, who is far more likely to understand the gravity of the situation, and it should have been much more in his interest to show himself willing to deal with it.

Now, we, the readers, know that Jon is such a massive liability for the Boltons due to fake Arya, possibly Robb's will etc. that they wouldn't have helped as long as he was alive.

But Jon doesn't know it, and I'd classify his complete lack of attempts to establish a dialogue with the Boltons as a failure of duty.

Mance - I really don't understand how and why Jon thinks that Mance could have been used. If spared and allowed to continue as a leader of the wildlings, wouldn't it broadcast to them that all and any promises and oaths to NW aren't worth spit? Because see, Mance betrayed them in the worst way possible and is still practically met with open arms. And what message does it send to the black brothers themselves?

Yes, Mance is capable and knowledgeable and charming, but IMHO executing him was a 100% right thing to do and he could have been convinced to part with whatever exclusive knowledge about the Others he hints at for the sake of his people and his son.

To me, that's another mistake on Jon's part. Not that he is in charge re: Mance here, but he will be in the future.

Re: food - why can't the NW hunt in the Gifts? They are abandoned, surely there should be lots of game there. Weren't both Ygritte and Bran impressed by fertility of the Gifts? Hunting beyond the Wall, with both Others and wildlings out there just doesn't sound practical to me. Both of them should have spooked the game for miles and miles around the Wall. And the hunters' attention would be necessarily divided, making them easy prey.

Not that I agree with Marsh's proposal to seal the gates, but it seems to me that food potential of the Gifts is being downplayed here, by both Jon and Marsh. Wildlings, in particular, should know how to extract everything edible from their environment.

Further, I wonder whether Jon actually had necessary expertise to negotiate a sufficient loan in the future, given his demonstrated lack of knowledge re: food reserves during his first inventory-taking with Marsh. And yea, lack of brainstorming and Jon's increasing tendency to make all the decisions by himself... Mormont's leadership style seemed to be more cooperative and Stannis is prepared to listen to and implement good ideas. Even Tywin at least pretended to listen to his lords/council's input and made them believe that they contributed to his decisions.

[Ragnorak]

Jon VI (DwD)

Summary

The chapter is broken into three parts. Jon sending out the rangers including Thorne, Jon in the yard including his fight with "Rattleshirt," and Jon's walk where he meets Melisandre. All three touch on family. The present absence of Benjen when he sends out the rangers, the past practices in a different yard with Robb as a fights the recruits and Mance, and the future of Arya as he wrestles with the news of her impending marriage to Ramsay Bolton. All three also touch on Mel's magic. The rangers he sends out serve as her prediction to try and win him over, he fights Mance disguised by Mel's glamor, and she does something queer with Ghost in her disconcerting way of flirting or seducing Jon.

Observations

“The bastard boy is sending you out to range. To find our foes and kill them if need be. You are skilled with a blade. You were master-at-arms, here and at Eastwatch.”

Thorne is correct to a degree in pointing out the parallel to the Slynt situation even if his conclusions are off. Jon is finding a use for him that also eliminates him as a political problem. That solution also involves giving Thorne a chance to prove himself through hard work much like Jon's thoughts on Slynt's assignment. The evolution seems clear in Jon's comfort and security in his position as Lord Commander. He doesn't need to overtly remind Thorne that he is the LC. Jon can take a slur hung on him as a new recruit and use it as his self-identifier while ordering a man that used to be his superior without explicitly making it an order despite that man openly trying to use the same slur to undermine his authority. This is a very different leadership space than when Slynt challenged him.

Lots of thoughts about Noye. Jon still thinks of the weapons and armor as Noye's.

By nightfall the bruises that Rattleshirt had given him had turned purple. “They’ll go yellow before they fade away,” he told Mormont’s raven. “I’ll look as sallow as the Lord of Bones.”

The purple to yellow struck me as Mance went from regal purple to Rattleshirt yellow.

“Shadows.” The world seemed darker when he said it. “Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.”

Plenty of shadows material in this series. Varys' riddle, Tyrion's shadow as big as a king, the shadows on the Wall during Mel's mummer's show for the Wildlings. The moon angle has lots of potential especially with the dragon hatching tale.

He found Ghost outside his door, gnawing on the bone of an ox to get at the marrow. “When did you get back?” The direwolf got to his feet, abandoning the bone to come padding after Jon.

This is the second time I recall that we see Ghost gnawing on an ox bone. An ox can be a symbol of a king and I suppose we could make something of Ghost gnawing on the bones of a king in the context of all the other king references in Jon, but it is more the bull that has kingly connotations than the ox which implies more a more domesticated animal. I don't get the sense that ox here is used in a technical "at least two year old castrated bull trained to pull carts" sense. Seems more generic domesticated bovine. Is there a possible Biblical tie in? Lots of ox references in the Old Testament.

“You heart does not concern me. Just your hands.”

This struck me. There's the clean and dirty hands theme, but also the weirwood image itself-- a heart tree with red hand-like leaves. There's an obvious intentions vs. actions meaning but this line has a great deal of possibility given the in series theme surrounding hearts and hands. More so with Mel specifically and her contrast to the old gods and the hand theme that ends the chapter emphasize it.

And come that day, take my hand.” The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers. “Take my hand,” she said again, “and let me save your sister.”

An interesting similarity and contrast

Ser Rodrik too had fallen, slain by Theon Turncloak and his ironmen as he’d tried to retake Winterfell. The great stronghold of House Stark was a scorched desolation. All my memories are poisoned.

Where am I going? What am I doing? Castle Black was still and silent, its halls and towers dark. My seat, Jon Snow reflected. My hall, my home, my command. A ruin.

Again

I am not a wolf

Analysis

In previous reads the adherence to oaths seemed more prominent. This time the pull of family seemed to far outweigh the significance of Jon's focus on his oath. I suspect that's greatly influenced by our earlier discussions.

Those of us who have been around a while have discussed sending Thorne and Jon's fight with Mance a great deal. The general consensus is that sending Thorne ranging is an astute choice. His is officially a ranger and now that he is no longer master-at-arms he has no duty that would prevent him from ranging. His objections to the assignment are hollow, elitist, and ring of cowardice which is reflected in the other ranger's reactions. Dywen is thanking him for the assignment and complaining about the splinters he was getting in his ass from not ranging while Thorne acts as if he's being assassinated. Quite the contrast. The scene also gives us some insight into the rather different views the rangers hold compared to Bowen Marsh.

Jon seems to find getting his ass kicked by Mance to be a cathartic experience. There is also the irony in all the focus of betrayal by Wildlings and the "threat" of the dagger while "Rattleshirt" had a dagger to use and Jon's fate at the end of this book. While Mance shows a certain hostility to Jon and there does seem to be a level of bitterness at his fate, I don't think we can conclude that he hates Jon either. He's testing Jon here and possibly proving to himself that he could have bested Jon had he been a contender beyond the Wall. Jon tells him that Stannis burned the wrong man so even if he didn't know of Jon's advocacy for his life before he would now.

What struck me this time was the exchange with Mel. We've mentioned before that she gives him the warning about the rangers after he's already sent them out. He couldn't act on it if he wanted to. Unless Mel only saw this vision at this evening's night fire, she deliberately withheld it from Jon. If she did only see it at this evening's night fire than it was a pretty damn useless prophetic vision since the rangers were already gone.

In her own POV I think she mentions having only seen the "Arya" vision once. It seems she was unable to interpret it at the time and takes the occasion of this letter to piece together its meaning (incorrectly.) It is more evidence of Mel's tendency to read visions in ways that suit her agenda-- partly because she believes they're sent to her to meet her agenda despite whatever lip service she pays to her god having an agenda of his own. I can really feel for Mel. Just the other day someone was taking too long on line at McDonald's and I tried to call down a plague of locusts and make the soda fountains run red with blood. Then when I tried to part the Hudson River to avoid the bridge traffic the french fries got all wet. You just can't rely on divine figures like you could back in the good old days of 5,000 BC.

The wind is a curious image here. Osha tells Bran it is the voice of the old gods and there are some curious uses of wind relating to Bloodraven. Arya's cloak being pulled by the wind on Highheart comes to mind as one example. Here we have:

Then the first gust caught him, slicing through his layers of wool and leather to set his teeth to chattering. He stalked across the yard, into the teeth of that wind. His cloak flapped loudly from his shoulders.

The wind is pulling his cloak behind him where Mel is following him. Not sure what to make of the "teeth" of the wind especially in light of the later "teeth" reference in regard to Mel.

She has power. The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister.

There is also the contrast between the cold of the wind and the warmth coming off Mel.

What really struck me is that Jon touches Ghost and has his perceptions heightened, or is "seeing" through Ghost when he first sees Mel and mistakes her for Ygritte.

In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.
When he turned he saw Ygritte.

Jon's fingers touching Ghost also plays into the hand/heart comment and the image of Mel's fingers with the mist. Mel seems to be trying to use Ghost to win Jon's trust and I'm wondering if the Ygritte illusion was always intended for Ghost but Jon saw it because he touched Ghost and was perceiving things with the direwolf's senses.

I also found Mel's comment about Jon and Ghost having "power" to be less curiosity piquing than on previous reads. She tells Jon to embrace it but her response to his question of "how?" is make a shadow baby with me.

“The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.”

I'm not sure Mel has any knowledge she can actually share with Jon regardin being a warg. I don't doubt that she perceives a magical power in Jon but I suspect she's just interested in a better shadow baby fuel. Her words are certainly true as Varymyr thought something similar, but I don't think she could make good on her offer to show him even if she wanted to.

I'm not settled on viewing the scene as Mel's glamor specifically targeting Ghost and Jon's perceiving it being outside of Mel's intent, but it does offer a different angle to ponder.

[Mithras]

Good work Ragnorak,

1)

By nightfall the bruises that Rattleshirt had given him had turned purple. “They’ll go yellow before they fade away,” he told Mormont’s raven. “I’ll look as sallow as the Lord of Bones.”

Purple is a regal color and the Targaryens have purple eyes. A Targaryen is given to the fires upon death. This is, in a way, a transformation from purple to yellow before everything except the sallow bones burns and fades away.

2)

The ones the Others kill don’t stay dead … and they remember. I’m coming back, Lord Snow.

Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him.

His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye.

The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw.

House Royce Words: We Remember

A highborn (Waymar Royce) wight killed a ranger (Will) and the other ranger (Gared) managed to escape. He was eventually beheaded by Ned.

This time though, they are aware of the danger. I do think that Thorne will return one way or another (or already has returned). His history makes it impossible for him to disappear from the story like this.

3)

When the last of the riders had disappeared into the trees, Jon Snow rode the winch cage down with Dolorous Edd. A few scattered snowflakes were falling as they made their slow descent, dancing on the gusty wind. One followed the cage down, drifting just beyond the bars. It was falling faster than they were descending and from time to time would vanish beneath them. Then a gust of wind would catch it and push it upward once again. Jon could have reached through the bars and caught it if he had wished.

These sudden gusts of winds sometimes represent a grave danger of which a character remains ignorant. This is especially true if the wind stirs the cloak of that person.

Royce paused a moment, staring off into the distance, his face reflective. A cold wind whispered through the trees. His great sable cloak stirred behind like something half-alive.

“There’s something wrong here,” Gared muttered.

Royce was ignorant of the grave danger which Gared and Will had sensed.

“Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?” The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak.

Euron intended to take slaves and sell them on the way to Dany but the ironborn and the Reader forced him to change his plans. He sent Victarion in his stead and now he has no choice to raid and plunder the Reach. One of his main targets is Oldtown. This means he decided to leap from some tall tower which symbolically represents he will attack the Hightowers. But the defenses of the city are very strong and his only chance of victory is discussed in this thread. He will be almost victorious but Sam will slay him with an arrow. Then, fAegon and JonCon will arrive to crush the ironborn against the city walls.

In short, the sudden gust of wind warned Euron about leaping from the tall tower. Returning to Jon, he will reflect on single snowflakes several times. one is here and another one was at the wedding of Alys.

Was the decision of sending Thorne bad? I think GRRM pointed this by with the snowflake and the sudden gust of wind.

4)

As discussed here, the letter Jon gets from Ramsay is signed by Lord Dustin, who does not exist. Is it a mistake or if it is meant to be like this, what could that possibly mean?

5)

ASoS: “By night all cloaks are black, Your Grace.”

ADwD: At night all robes are grey.

The first quote foreshadows that when the Long Night falls, it will be all the humanity vs. the Others. Hence, everybody will have to don a black cloak.

What about the second quote? Robes are for priests and also the maesters. In the Long Night, everything should be black and white. There has to be a severe distinction like this. But the robe-wearing people will be grey. I don’t think it is something good.

6)

Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them.

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

Mel made heavy use of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers. Take the smoke for fear for example.

“The red woman. Half my knights are afraid even to say her name, did you know? If she can do nothing else, a sorceress who can inspire such dread in grown men is not to be despised. A frightened man is a beaten man. And perhaps she can do more. I mean to find out.”

So the whole power of Mel was simply a trick. Wait, I remember something similar to this.

Varys smiled. “Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less.”

“So power is a mummer’s trick?”

“A shadow on the wall,” Varys murmured, “yet shadows can kill. And ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow.”

Let us not forget that Varys seemed to know how Renly and Penrose were killed. He did not state it clearly but he knows all about the shadow assassins. I think one cannot learn such knowledge without actually studying them. I think this is another tick on the Varys is a sorcerer theory.

Now returning to Mel’s feeble tricks, I think we saw another one in the use.

In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.

When he turned he saw Ygritte.

Obviously a special smoke has been used and Jon saw his heart’s desire: Ygritte. This is the smoke for lust IMO. I think she might have used it on Stannis as well.

"Ghost.” Melisandre made the word a song.

The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers.

Jon let out a white breath. “He is not always so …”

“… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow.”

By the way, it is clear that Mel wants to make shadows babies. Neither Jon nor Davos fell to Mel’s seduction.

[Maia]

Jon VI (DwD)

Jon is finding a use for him that also eliminates him as a political problem. That solution also involves giving Thorne a chance to prove himself through hard work much like Jon's thoughts on Slynt's assignment.

Indeed. It is a fairly clever move on Jon's part, too. We'll see how it plays out, given that Thorne's reservations weren't far off either. We know for sure that 2/3 of the rangers sent out are dead, after all.

This is the second time I recall that we see Ghost gnawing on an ox bone. An ox can be a symbol of a king

A cursory search of ox symbolism on the nets doesn't reveal such a connection, oxen seem to be mostly associated with service and production. The bull, as you mention, is the animal that has such connotations.

Dywen is thanking him for the assignment and complaining about the splinters he was getting in his ass from not ranging while Thorne acts as if he's being assassinated. Quite the contrast. The scene also gives us some insight into the rather different views the rangers hold compared to Bowen Marsh.

Yet the outcome of this ranging will show that Thorne isn't completely wrong to consider this assigment to be a suicide mission. How realistic is Dywen's enthusiasm after the ordeal of Mormont's ranging?

We only had one ranger PoV previously - Will, and while competent enough, he didn't seem to be that enamored with his job and it's dangers even during the allegedly calmer times.

Also, it can be argued that Jon is spending his last few remaining rangers rather recklessly.

Has any estimation of the number of rangers remaining to NW been made? I seem to remember that Mormon's ranging had 2/3 rangers and only a score men all-told returned from it. Most of the men who fought and died with Bowen Marsh at the Shadow Tower were probably rangers too.

I'd guess that Jon only has a couple dozen rangers all-told left and many/most of the best of them are dead by this point. That puts Jon ostensibly having support of the rangers versus his overall support in NW in some perspective, IMHO.

If she did only see it at this evening's night fire than it was a pretty damn useless prophetic vision since the rangers were already gone.

I wouldn't go that far - at the very least it could have told Jon not to rely too much on the positive outcome of the mission and to prepare some contingencies. But yea, not all that helpful.

It is more evidence of Mel's tendency to read visions in ways that suit her agenda-- partly because she believes they're sent to her to meet her agenda despite whatever lip service she pays to her god having an agenda of his own.

Yes, indeed. That is Mel's greatest failing - to see herself as the elect of R'llor and her agenda as the agenda of R'llor. I strongly suspect that it came from her having visions and magic working for her when it wasn't working for anybody else she knew. It may have been small magic, but still, enough for a deeply religious person to mistake it for a sign of being singled out by their deity. I have my suspicions about the Elder Brother and his miraclious healing, too.

Mel seems to be trying to use Ghost to win Jon's trust and I'm wondering if the Ygritte illusion was always intended for Ghost but Jon saw it because he touched Ghost and was perceiving things with the direwolf's senses.

How did Mel even know what Ygritte looked like? Wouldn't her corpse have been burned days/weeks before Stannis and Co showed up at the Wall? Another vision? If so, it seems that Mel has been getting Jon-related visions for some time. Not entirely sure why the Ygritte illusion would have affected Ghost specifically - he didn't seem particularly fond of her, IMHO.

She tells Jon to embrace it but her response to his question of "how?" is make a shadow baby with me.

Yea, I agree that Mel doesn't really have any skinchanger-applicable wisdom to offer.

But this shadow-baby making thing makes me wonder - can she store it? Given that Stannis's enemies are hundreds of leagues away and that she previously needed to be close to sick one on it's target, what's the point? Also, why is she so selective with the donors? I am sure many of the "queen's men" would be happy to oblige. And Jon may be magical, but Davos certainly isn't, so that's not the deciding point.

My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before.

Now, this is very interesting, though, perhaps somewhat out of scope of this discussion. It seems that magic has been much stronger in Asshai even when it was very weak everywhere else. Magic weakness was geographically uneven? Why? We had no indication so far of dragons in Asshai from Mel. And if Dany's dragons do enhance magic (which I am very sceptical of), their effect seems to be world-wide.

Oh, and now Melisandre is much stronger and can rely on her spells alone. She attributes it to her proximity to the Wall, but we saw that unbeknowest to her magic was becoming stronger all around the world. In any case, she appears to be able to mess with a warg bond. Hm...

[Fire Eater]

Good job, Ragnorak and Paper Weaver

His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton's throat as easily.

Clydas cleared his throat. "Will there be an answer?"

"Does my lord wish to answer?" the maester asked . . . Jaime rolled the parchment up again as tight as one hand would allow

I think Jon may get that wish with Ramsay. As we know Jaime will strangle with one hand the person who sent the summons, Cersei, about his sister's predicament. I think Jon will do the same to the one who sent the summons, Ramsay, about his "sister's" predicament. If Jon was able to lift Thorne off the ground with one hand in ASoS, imagine what he could do to the guy he believed abused and raped his sister.

"I have no sister."

Jon doesn't know how literally true that is.

"Look at this fine young ox [Gendry]"

"We used to have an ox," the old man told her . . . "but the wolves made off with him." . . . "They took off our daughter too, and had their way with her, but she come wondering back after the battle down at Duskendale. The ox never did. The wolves ate him, I expect."

As to Ghost gnawing on the bone of an ox to get at the marrow, I think I may have something. Gendry, a boy of royal blood ignorant of his heritage is called an ox, and the wolves, referring to Stark men, made off with an ox, as the Starks made off with a boy of royal blood ignorant of his heritage. The Starks' daughter, Lyanna, took off with Rhaegar, and they did consummate their relationship. They came back with Lyanna's bones after the war, and they took Jon in. Ghost is trying to crack an ox's bone to get at the marrow, and I think this may point to, while his spirit is in Ghost, Jon's Snow identity being cracked through to reveal his true heritage/identity.

Once a man had said the words his blood was black

Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him [Drogon]

Another dragon reference for Jon, and a connection to him and Drogon

Black as a bastard's heart

Myles had been possessed of jug ears, a crooked jaw, and the biggest nose that Jon Connington had ever seen. When he smiled at you, though, none of that mattered

When she [Ygritte] grinned, the crooked teeth didn't seem to matter.

It brings to mind Myles "Blackheart" Toyne, whom Connington had served in the GC. He was described as fierce but fair, and a father to his men, and he had a relationship with a red head, Connington, like Jon did with Ygritte. A hint to Connington following Jon Snow later on?

The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers.

A possible hint that Melisandre's appearance is a glamour?

[Mithras]

The mist rose from her pale flesh, and for a moment it seemed as if pale, sorcerous flames were playing about her fingers.

A possible hint that Melisandre's appearance is a glamour?

The firelight made his black skin shine like polished onyx, and sometimes Victarion could swear that the flames tattooed on his face were dancing too, twisting and bending, melting into one another, their colors changing with every turn of the priest’s head.

Agreed. Mel and Moqorro both.

[Lummel]

...So, what are we supposed to think about Jon's picks in the game, if Robb's turned out to be so prophetic? ...Could these be hints that Jon is going to be a great warrior/military leader, but is not intended to rule? I confess that I have never noticed the highly predictive nature of Robb's picks in the games myself, so this is very interesting. And certainly would be an interesting deviation from Arthurian archetype where Jon is concerned.

Another thing that I did notice previously, but became kinda blatant to me when dissected like that, is that I absolutely can't fathom how Slynt could have risen so high while being such a fool...

...But what are we supposed to think about Jon's lack of attempts to contact the Boltons. He sent the "paper shield" to KL, but Roose Bolton is a northman, who is far more likely to understand the gravity of the situation, and it should have been much more in his interest to show himself willing to deal with it...

Mance - I really don't understand how and why Jon thinks that Mance could have been used...

Re: food - why can't the NW hunt in the Gifts? ...

A lot of interesting points there Maia, the idea that Jon is not intended to rule as king has also cropped up in the whole business of not going down the king's road to king's landing - & I think something else too that I don't recall offhand so the choice of childhood role models fits together with that.

I don't know about the gift, perhaps it was something just forgotten, even if there aren't bigger beasts like herds of deer and the like I'd imagine there'd be plenty of rabbits and hares - it must in any case be less danger to send out hunting parties into the gift than into the haunted forest :dunno:

With Mance I wonder if this is more Jon's heart speaking than his head? Another example of mercy and compassion or maybe that he believed that he could work with the man? Jon's attitudes don't seem to me to entirely make sense, traditionally since Mance is an oathbreaker wouldn't one expect Jon to think of him as more dangerous and less trustworthy than Rattleshirt, yet the opposite is the case. It is curious.

Personally I don't doubt that Jon is partisan and yes he doesn't even think to embark on a charm offensive to build a working relationship with the Boltons...but then again Roose did stab his liege lord through the chest as part of a violation of guest right which does establish that he is pretty much untrustworthy. Plainly the only way Jon could build a relationship with the Boltons is with a big enough army to his back to deter attack!

The Slynt promotion is a mystery, but I'd agree that ultimately it diminishes Jon Arryn. I imagine that Lord Baelish whispering in Lysa's ear got Slynt the job.

[Mithras]

About the the mention of Ghost and ox twice, Schmendrick has an incredibly well documented theory that Jon Snow is the Lightbringer and GRRM made substantial use of Mithraic references in his story. It is discussed in the Part 2 of the theory but it maybe a good idea to read Part 1 before that.

[Lummel]

:thumbsup: Ragnorak!

I was taken by this quote that you made:"“Shadows.” The world seemed darker when he said it. “Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.”

This is in the context of Melisandre trying to seduce / seducing Jon. However a shadow is caused by an object blocking the light, the moon reflects light, so both are remote from illumination. Jon doesn't know what to do, Melisandre is struggling to interpret their visions. There is no enlightenment.

Further things are being deliberately obscured: there is the false lord of bones in this chapter and the false Arya is mentioned (perhaps there are two false aryas if you like, multiplying in the uncertainty). On the other hand Thorne is reluctant to act like a real ranger, Pyke and Mallister are reluctant to accept real recruits. Things are not what they seem. Ramsey's title of Lord of the Hornwood is a criminal usurpation, he won Moat Calin through a trick and doesn't write with ink but blood - so we have a set of things masquerading as something other than they are - perhaps as Paperwaver mentions the usage "Lord Dustin" might be a clue that the letter not all that it seems.

[Maia]

I don't know about the gift, perhaps it was something just forgotten, even if there aren't bigger beasts like herds of deer and the like I'd imagine there'd be plenty of rabbits and hares - it must in any case be less danger to send out hunting parties into the gift than into the haunted forest :dunno:.

Frankly, I think that neither man mentioned the eminently logical potential of the Gifts as a food source because of their agendas: Jon wanted to stress the importance of keeping the gates open and going out there, while Marsh wanted to stress how limited their food supplies were and that they couldn't afford to feed extra mouths.

Jon's attitudes don't seem to me to entirely make sense, traditionally since Mance is an oathbreaker wouldn't one expect Jon to think of him as more dangerous and less trustworthy than Rattleshirt, yet the opposite is the case. It is curious.

Oh, they absolutely make sense if one is willing to countenance that Jon isn't practicing what he preaches. Rattleshirt was in charge of the party that killed Jon's comrades on the ranging and put him in a situation where he had to kill Quorin. Mance isn't personally responsible for the deaths of anybody that Jon was close to. Would Jon be as forgiving if Mance had been responsible for deaths of Benjen and/or Sam?! I very much doubt it. Sure, Mance is charismatic and seems to be more of the "big picture" guy, than Rattleshirt, but perhaps we shouldn't underestimate personal onus.

.

Personally I don't doubt that Jon is partisan and yes he doesn't even think to embark on a charm offensive to build a working relationship with the Boltons...but then again Roose did stab his liege lord through the chest as part of a violation of guest right which does establish that he is pretty much untrustworthy.

But isn't Mance even worse when seen from this angle?! The books prior to Jon's election have been stressing the image of NW as a family, the members of it as brothers. Well, from this PoV Mance not only broke oaths made in front of a heart tree, but he turned on and murdered a good number of his brothers. Were those who brought Mance to the wildling wisewoman, fearing for his life, among those he killed, I wonder? Anyway, I find Jon's suggestion of sparing and using Mance frankly mind-boggling.

Jon has been proposed as a figure to whom it falls to provide justice denied elsewhere - but this is the worst perversion of justice possible! Yes, Mance is likeable, but he is completely untrustworthy as far as NW or indeed anybody south of the Wall is concerned and more than deserves an execution.

I agree that Jon's beheading of Slynt was just, but when juxtaposed with his pleading for Mance's life, it doesn't look that way. Mance is 100x guiltier than Slynt, after all, and where Slynt only refused to obey an LC, Mance turned on NW as a whole and hurt them badly over the years.

Now, rank and file crows don't know about Jon's advocacy for Mance at this point, but they will learn about him being alive and seemingly in cahoots with Jon immediately prior to the stabbing. Hm...

Suggestion of sparing Mance is so bad from every angle i.e. :

Jon tried to present NW to the wildlings as an oganization to respect and fear - but sparing Mance would blatantly demonstrate that you can betray NW in the worst way and get away with it.

Complete miscarriage of justice, that was sure to enrage brothers who have lost friends to Mance and reasonably feel betrayed by him. Ditto Rage and likely opposition of the northern lords who have suffered from Mance - i.e. Umbers wanting his skull for a cup.

Zero reason to believe that Mance wouldn't turn on NW (and Stannis ) again, once he re-unites the fugitives and brings superior numbers of wildlings behind the Wall. He rationalized his first treason, the second one would be even easier.

IMHO, an actual wildling leader, such as Tormund, is much preferrable to Mance. At least, he always was a honest enemy, rather than a traitor from within, and it is believable that he might keep his faith.

So, yea, compared to the Boltons, as far as we know Boltons didn't hurt NW in any way prior to current events. It is in their interest to protect the North against threats from behind the Wall, once they become truly aware of them.

Not only that, but should Stannis lose against them, everything Jon did for the wildlings with his blessing, everything that he has accomplished against the true threat would be in severe jeopardy, unless they are convinced of the truth of what is going on.

Despite all this, Jon doesn't even think about opening a dialogue with the Boltons! All because they have caused him a personal loss. IMHO, this is a severe dereliction of duty and very short-sighted. Other readers here will, no doubt, disagree.

.

The Slynt promotion is a mystery, but I'd agree that ultimately it diminishes Jon Arryn. I imagine that Lord Baelish whispering in Lysa's ear got Slynt the job.

IIRC, Lysa was only able to procure her dearest Petyr an office of a minor customs official. Robert's massive spending and LF's own talents took it from there. And, according to Tyrion, all of LF's nominees in the financial sector seemed more competent than their highborn predessors.

We never had any indication that Lysa had enough influence with her husband to affect his decisions on such a major office as commander of the Goldcloaks.

Clearly, LF propelled Slynt to his office, but why on earth did he chose such an incompetent? Because we can now say that Slynt was incompetent at intrigue and social climbing, or he wouldn't have acted like he did in the NW. We also know that he wasn't good at his job of keeping peace in KL. It is not entirely believable that LF would have propped such a man, a man liable to stumble badly at some point, particularly given the competence of his other apointees...

[Ragnorak]

How did Mel even know what Ygritte looked like? Wouldn't her corpse have been burned days/weeks before Stannis and Co showed up at the Wall? Another vision? If so, it seems that Mel has been getting Jon-related visions for some time. Not entirely sure why the Ygritte illusion would have affected Ghost specifically - he didn't seem particularly fond of her, IMHO.

...

Now, this is very interesting, though, perhaps somewhat out of scope of this discussion. It seems that magic has been much stronger in Asshai even when it was very weak everywhere else. Magic weakness was geographically uneven? Why? We had no indication so far of dragons in Asshai from Mel. And if Dany's dragons do enhance magic (which I am very sceptical of), their effect seems to be world-wide.

Oh, and now Melisandre is much stronger and can rely on her spells alone. She attributes it to her proximity to the Wall, but we saw that unbeknowest to her magic was becoming stronger all around the world. In any case, she appears to be able to mess with a warg bond. Hm...

I imagine Mel has been seeing glimpses of Jon or she wouldn't have wanted to stay at the Wall when Stannis left. (It is also possible that Stannis just didn't want her for fear that magic would usurp credit for his victory or Seven forbid because he actually gets how she can kind of alienate people.) Seeing Ygritte in her fires is certainly possible. I imagine she'd be something that Mel would actively look for if her plan is to seduce Jon.

What I found curious about the whole scene is that Jon sees her as Ygritte precisely at the moment when his senses are magically heightened by the bond with Ghost. It makes a certain amount of sense that this "illusion" Jon sees is related to that heightened perception. It doesn't have to be that Mel was deceiving Ghost it just struck me as a plausible option given that Ghost falls for the illusion. What are the possible meanings behind seeing Mel as Ygritte if in fact it was the byproduct of heightened perception and not just Mel gaming him? Is it perceiving a greater truth about something? Seeing the literal magical manipulation?

I suppose the question, if valid in its assumption, ties into Lummel's observation about nothing being what it seems where even uncovering a truth with magical sight still reveals a deception.

I'm inclined to lean toward your view on magic at least as far as you've said here. I had some thoughts on learned vs. innate magic that I posted in Dany, but I don't see its applicability here that I did in Dany's story. The notion of places of magical power is a relatively common one but I'm not sure how much stock we can put in Mel's words. If magic is getting stronger (which seems true with the Alchemists and wildfire, Dany's pickpocketing pyromancers, the glass candles burning again) how can Mel really know how much is the Wall and how much is the generic magical uptick? If she's so damn strong here why is she still using powders and why did she find it a relief when Jon killed "Mance" to end her need to maintain the illusion? I'm not really going for any magical policy advocacy here, just trying to point out that it is hard to pull objective data from Mel's comments about magic and apply them.

Here is Butterbumps post in Learning to Lead for Jon VI for those interested. Forgot to link it in the summary.

[Lummel]

Frankly, I think that neither man mentioned the eminently logical potential of the Gifts as a food source because of their agendas...

Jon has been proposed as a figure to whom it falls to provide justice denied elsewhere - but this is the worst perversion of justice possible! Yes, Mance is likeable, but he is completely untrustworthy as far as NW or indeed anybody south of the Wall is concerned and more than deserves an execution...

IIRC, Lysa was only able to procure her dearest Petyr an office of a minor customs official...

The book is only explicit about the customs post, so far it is down to us to decide individually as readers how much we think Lysa, Jon Arryn's judgement or Lord Baelish's direct intervention got him further office and protected him. But for Petyr I guess Slynt was ideal because he was in his pocket, I don't think that commander of the watch required a high standard of competency. The only thing that was question was his fondness for bribes and even that was explained away to King Bob's satisfaction.

About justice I disagree, in that I don't see justice as strict, unbending application of the law. Justice surely is the law tempered by humane understanding, so while I agree with your comments as to the unwisdom of sparing the Mance I don't think that disqualifies Jon from being the (or a) provider of the justice denied elsewhere. By the nature of things human understanding is flawed, not perfect and any judge will make mistakes. Here I think what is important is not that Jon is right or wrong in his specific judgement calls but firstly his intention and self-image (he thinks that he should act in a just manner) and secondly how other people react to Jon (there is a constituency that thinks that Jon embodies the principle of justice). But within that association of Jon with justice there is plenty of scope to criticise his individual decisions, whether for being potentially unwise, or too harsh as Sam thinks in regard to the baby swap. The contrast is with an actual King like King Bob who can't be bothered and evades responsibility unless it involves hitting things with a weapon.

Good point on the Gift - ignoring it as a food source does play neatly into the programmes of both men.

[Lummel]

About the the mention of Ghost and ox twice, Schmendrick has an incredibly well documented theory that Jon Snow is the Lightbringer and GRRM made substantial use of Mithraic references in his story. It is discussed in the Part 2 of the theory but it maybe a good idea to read Part 1 before that.

To nit pick an ox really isn't a bull in symbolic terms. A bull is potent, virile, fierce, aggressive and assertive while an ox is castrated and therefore dependable, hardworking, a beast of burden and drudgery, docile, unthreatening - it can't be a stand in for the Mithraic bull. If GRRM had wanted to do that he could have had Ghost gnawing on an auroch's (ie a super wild bull) bone which would have been a perfect match.

On the other hand finding Mithraic imagery associated with Jon shouldn't be a surprise - it would fit with the parallels with Jesus, for Frazer in The Golden Bough figures including Jesus, Mithra, Adonis and so on were all manifestations of a sacrificial king who had to die, symbolically or literally, to ensure the potency of the arable land and the rebirth of the year in the spring.

In terms of the story that could be a hint to Jon's overall role, or specifically to this part of his POV ie a necessary fall and renewal, then again fall and renewal is presumably going to be the shape of the overall arc for all the Stark POV characters. :dunno:

[bemused]

I'm having to break up my thoughts on Thorne ,Mance and Mel ( too long for one post ) .

Here's Mance :

Mance is not only testing Jon but simultaneously trying to hint that there's something off about his identity He tried hard to do it with words when Stannis "gave" him to Jon, but Jon, not knowing about Mel's ability to glamour , didn't pick up on it.

Everyone has seen that Jon is frequently in the practice yard , honing his skills. I think Mance would expect Jon to notice all the odd things Jon does notice..

Once clad in mail and plate, the Lord of Bones seemed to stand a little straighter. He seemed taller too, his shoulders thicker and more powerful than Jon would have thought. It’s the armor, not the man, he told himself. Even Sam could appear almost formidable, clad head to heel in Donal Noye’s steel.

......

He hits harder than I would have thought. His quickness was another unpleasant surprise. They circled round each other, trading blow for blow. The Lord of Bones gave as good as he was getting. By rights the two-handed greatsword should have been a deal more cumbersome than Jon’s longsword, but the wildling wielded it with blinding speed. He cannot keep this up for long, Jon told himself as

he stopped another blow. He is too strong and too quick, he realized, and with that greatsword he has weight and reach on me.

Mance has even specifically chosen the weapon that would most accentuate the strangeness of a small man being able to do what he's doing.

It seems to me Mance has been trying to clue Jon in to his survival at every oportunity. Just around the corner in Mel's chapter, Mance calls Jon stiff-necked . It's the sort of thing that we might expect someone to say of Stannis.. To me , this is just one clue that Mance understands Jon's actions and reasoning since becoming LC very well. He knows the conundrum Jon would be facing if he was Jon's prisoner. He knows Jon's attitude toward duty. ( Firm , but subject to reason )

If the NW had taken Mance prisoner , Jon would feel he'd have to execute him.( As indeed , Jon makes clear to Sam ) It's very clear what the NW expectations of justice are in regard to Mance. But Jon and Stannis both see value in having Mance around as an advisor on dealing with the free folk and on the Others.(Stannis probably has other reasons as well , but in this much, he and Jon are agreed.) Stannis ,as King, is not obligated to be bound by NW rules, and Mance is his prisoner.

I happen to think that logically, the signs are pretty clear that Stannis knows about the glamour. If so, Stannis (and Mel) and Mance must have discussed the ins and outs of the situation - so it follows that Mance would know that Jon has lobbied for his life . ... There is also a clue in the Mel chapter that Jon and Mance must have given Stannis very similar assessments of Rattleshirt.

From a NW standpoint, neither Mance nor Rattleshirt were to be trusted ( while Mance deserted his post , Rattleshirt has been one of the more notorious raiders ), but Jon personally sees a sort of honour in Mance ,as well as valuable experience. Stannis has tried to give Jon access to that experience, in giving "Rattleshirt" to Jon, but Mance knows Jon would never seek it from Rattleshirt. He's desperately trying to make Jon ask questions.

Although Jon's perceptive , he's at a total disadvantage because he truly "knows nothing" about glamours , having only the clue in the Jade Compendium about Lightbringer casting no heat or actual fire, to go on.

I don't think Mance hates Jon at all. If anyone understands split loyalties, it ought to be Mance. I think he has an increasing appreciation of Jon's abilities. He knows the wall has to stand , and he knows the rapport that he saw developing between Jon and Tormund could be a boon in saving his people.

ETA: On the speculative side of things ...Kings take some care to secure their succession . Robb wanted to designate Jon as his successor , particularly as he was going into battle.

In TWoW , we'll see Stannis' similar plans for Shireen

If (and I stress the speculative if ) my strong suspicions should prove right ..that Val and Dalla are Vala-like seers that wed leaders and help them in their pursuits to lead their people to greatness , security , or whatever ... then I think Val coupled with Jarl , was Mance's plan for succession. ... His son could not just automatically succeed him, and all the alliances Mance built would likely disintegrate at his death.

I think he was borrowing a practice from the NW and grooming Jarl to lead ( with Val's help) .. Jarl would still have to win his leadership , just as in the NW , the groomed candidate would still have to be elected LC.. Following Jarl's death , I suspect Val's interest in Jon ( and willingness to help him ) suggests who the candidate is now.

[Mithras]

3)

When the last of the riders had disappeared into the trees, Jon Snow rode the winch cage down with Dolorous Edd. A few scattered snowflakes were falling as they made their slow descent, dancing on the gusty wind. One followed the cage down, drifting just beyond the bars. It was falling faster than they were descending and from time to time would vanish beneath them. Then a gust of wind would catch it and push it upward once again. Jon could have reached through the bars and caught it if he had wished.

These sudden gusts of winds sometimes represent a grave danger of which a character remains ignorant. This is especially true if the wind stirs the cloak of that person.

Royce paused a moment, staring off into the distance, his face reflective. A cold wind whispered through the trees. His great sable cloak stirred behind like something half-alive.

“There’s something wrong here,” Gared muttered.

Royce was ignorant of the grave danger which Gared and Will had sensed.

“Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?” The wind came gusting through the window and stirred his sable cloak.

Euron intended to take slaves and sell them on the way to Dany but the ironborn and the Reader forced him to change his plans. He sent Victarion in his stead and now he has no choice to raid and plunder the Reach. One of his main targets is Oldtown. This means he decided to leap from some tall tower which symbolically represents he will attack the Hightowers. But the defenses of the city are very strong and his only chance of victory is discussed in this thread. He will be almost victorious but Sam will slay him with an arrow. Then, fAegon and JonCon will arrive to crush the ironborn against the city walls.

In short, the sudden gust of wind warned Euron about leaping from the tall tower. Returning to Jon, he will reflect on single snowflakes several times. one is here and another one was at the wedding of Alys.

Was the decision of sending Thorne bad? I think GRRM pointed this by with the snowflake and the sudden gust of wind.

Another addition to these sudden gust of winds.

“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword…

The shadow assassin to slay Renly came with a sudden gust of wind.

[The Sleeper]

Re: Jon and the Boltons.

Theoretically speaking, one would expect a new LC to have some kind of formal audience with the warden of the North. In the particular situation, the LC would inform the warden of the situation north of Wall and establish correspondence in order to formulate a strategy to deal with it. In fact, "Arya's" would be precisely the occasion the LC should especially as he is "related" to the bride. His presence there would make a much more substancial gesture of neutrality, particularly considering he would be dealing with the warden of the north rather than the Iron Throne directly and Ramsay's firs letter ca be seen s an invitation.

In practice that was never going to happen. Regardless of what Roose did to keep his involvement in the RW obscured there are the publicly known facts, that he is allied with the Frey's, that he has a Frey bride, that he left the RW unscathed, that he was named warden of the north. He is for all intents and purposes the representative of the Lannisters in the north and there is no reason to be circumspect about it, Jon hates their guts. Jon's presence at the wedding couldbe seen s approval orat the cvery least acquiscience on his part of his sister's wedding to Ramsay. There is also te fact tha any attempt on his part to contact the Boltons could put him at odds with Stannis. From the Bolton's perspective they know all that, plus the fact that Jon can demolish their plans for Winterfell and they are more aware of circumstances in which they ascended than Jon. Even if they could expect Jon to act in good faith and maintain perfect neutrality, a LC which is a living reminder of the house they supplanted as wardens will never be comfortable to them.

To all that we have to add the impossibility of having to simultaneously collaborate with two factions that are actively at war with one another.

The subject is so thorny and awkward as to render any attempt at collaboration failed from the start. Martin doesn't go there. In story both Jon and Roose pretend the other one does not even exist.

[bemused]

What ? Me again ? Okay, above was Mance, and here's Thorne..

We know Ser Alliser is a nasty piece of work ( he is in my book , anyway ), but there's so much we don't know about him that might inform his character, I can't help feeling there'll be a revelation coming down the pike.

I don't remember exactly where , but I've seen other posters ( perhaps on another thread) claim that Thorne's classified as a ranger. Well, I can't find any reference to his affiliation to any of the orders within the NW. He must have had one originally, but we don't know which, for sure. .... He's never served as a ranger that we know of, unless LC Qorgyll had slotted him in there for a while .

Mormont didn't think he was fit to lead, and I doubt Thorne would have been content to follow. Whether you think he intends to or not , he manages to sow discord among men wherever he goes , and is continually trying to manipulate someone almost every time we see him. When not manipulating , he's openly agressive ... as we see with both Tyrion and Jon. We know no more of his NW career than Jon does when he says, "You were master-at-arms, here and at Eastwatch." ...( From this , it would seem that Cotter Pyke was of the same opinion as Mormont... and from hints coming up, probably Qorgyll too . )

He must have come to the wall a short time (1-2yrs? ) before Benjen.. and though we don't know of them rubbing each other the wrong way, I think it's reasonable to suspect they did , because of his willingness to include Benjen in his accusations in ASoS. This may not be only to get a rise out of Jon...But to our chapter..

When he heard the order, Ser Alliser’s mouth twisted into a semblance of a smile, but his eyes

remained as cold and hard as flint. “So the bastard boy sends me out to die.”

“Die,” cried Mormont’s raven. “Die, die, die.”

You are not helping. Jon swatted the bird away. “The bastard boy is sending you out to range. To

find our foes and kill them if need be. You are skilled with a blade. You were master-at-arms, here and at Eastwatch.”

Thorne touched the hilt of his longsword. “Aye. I have squandered a third of my life trying to

teach the rudiments of swordplay to churls, muttonheads, and knaves. Small good that will do me in those woods.”

“Dywen will be with you, and another seasoned ranger.”

“We’ll learn you what you need t’ know, ser,” Dywen told Thorne, cackling. “Teach you how t’

wipe your highborn arse with leaves, just like a proper ranger.”

Kedge Whiteye laughed at that, and Black Jack Bulwer spat. Ser Alliser only said, “You would like me to refuse. Then you could hack off my head, same as you did for Slynt. I’ll not give you that pleasure, bastard. You’d best pray that it’s a wildling blade that kills me, though. The ones the Others kill don’t stay dead … and they remember. I’m coming back, Lord Snow.”

“I pray you do.” Jon would never count Ser Alliser Thorne amongst his friends, but he was still a brother. No one ever said you had to like your brothers.

( that's my bold and underline , but GRRM's italics in the quote)

Alliser's eyes are " cold and hard as flint " . Elsewhere he's "flinty eyed" , or his voice is "flinty". I think these also speak to his character and motives . Flint makes the spark that starts the fire that can become a conflagration ( or even a holocaust ) ...and I don't know if Mormont's raven , here , is uttering a wish , a warning for Thorne , a warning for Black Jack Bulwer's party , or a warning to Jon that Thorne's intentions for him have not changed. Jon swats the bird away , thinking , you are not helping ... but I think the bird is doing it's best.

When Thorne says , "The ones the Others kill don’t stay dead … and they remember." , with "remember" stressed..it's not only a sign that he hasn't forgotten his grudge , but a suggestion to the reader to remember Thorne's past actions against Jon. ... Goading young Jon into attacking him , manipulating Slynt and encouraging him to execute Jon, the suicide mission ,trying to get Slynt elected so he would have a right to execute Jon ... When we remember, "I’m coming back, Lord Snow" takes on a threatening tone, more than just determination to survive.

Thorne also says, "I have squandered a third of my life trying to teach the rudiments of swordplay to churls, muttonheads, and knaves." ... which , when combined with Dywen's , "Teach you how t’wipe your highborn arse with leaves, just like a proper ranger." , seems suggest that even if Thorne had been assigned to the rangers, he'd never served as one ( since you'd think "How to wipe your arse in the wild" would be a rudimentary lesson , and if Thorne considers a third of his life squandered as arms master, that would pretty much cover all of his time in the NW.)

Though Jon can never like Thorne , he's willing to follow Mormont's example and put some distance between them , giving Thorne the same chance he gave Slynt, while preventing him from working on Marsh. ( He might have done better to keep his enemies closer....Tough call. )

Marsh clearly has political fears and some prejudices as well ,including , perhaps, against Jon personally ... (see hint in later chapter, re: Satin ) .. But his political fears are his biggie , I think.

OTOH,Thorne doesn't appear to me to have a political agenda of his own. You never hear him mention "friends in KL" , like Slynt ( though Mormont thinks he has some) . Usually , what you hear from him is slander and derision... for Jon , for Aemon.. “Aemon’s lived too long, my lord,” Ser Alliser assured him. “His wits have gone dark as his eyes.” .. for Benjen.. “He murdered Qhorin just as his fellow turncloaks did Lord Mormont. It would not surprise me to learn that it was all part of the same fell plot. Benjen Stark may well have a hand in all this as well. For all we know, he is sitting in Mance Rayder’s tent even now. You know these Starks, my lord.” .. and where should we think Slynt learned to think of Noye, who he never met, as.. "this crippled blacksmith" ... which he uses derisively ?

I wouldn't think that Thorne favours the Lannisters , politically, since Tywin sent him to the wall, with no other option. The only political utterance we get from Thorne is..

“When has Stannis Baratheon ever had much good to say of anyone?” Ser Alliser’s flinty voice was unmistakable. “If we let Stannis choose our Lord Commander, we become his bannermen in all but name. Tywin Lannister is not like to forget that, and you know it will be Lord Tywin who wins in the end. He’s already beaten Stannis once, on the Blackwater.”

... but here , he's helping Bowen to persuade Othell to vote for Slynt. He's voicing and reinforcing Bowen's fears. But we know he has personal reasons for wanting Slynt as LC.... On other occasions we see...

"Thorne’s black eyes fixed on Tyrion with loathing." ..AGoT ( personal? )

And in ACoK , although Tyrion may have treated him shabbily , keeping him waiting... Tyrion was acting Hand of the King. It didn't help for Thorne to start out with... “I have been shunned, ignored, and left to wait like some baseborn servant.” ( o-o-o-o , baseborn) ... It didn't show much political concern to call Tyrion and the members of the small council "servants".... “The Lord Commander sent me to His Grace the king,” Thorne answered. “The matter is too grave to be left to servants.” ... He surely can't have expected to get more serious consideration from (13 yr.old?) Joffrey ?

This is followed by a lot of joking and sniggering at Thorne's expense , but that's par for the course when all over the kingdom , anything beyond the Wall is thought to be either a wildling ( not taken seriously enough ) or " grumkins and snarks " ( not taken seriously at all ). It's sad , but he wasn't likely to be taken more seriously by anyone.

Thorne to Tyrion ...“Do you think I sailed all the way from Eastwatch-by-the-Sea to be mocked by the likes of you?” ... again , not the best way to sway the Hand of the King. However ,Tyrion does order that he be given men , even that more should be arrested if there are too few.

He (Tyrion ) smiled wanly. “You came for men, did you not?”

“The cold winds are rising. The Wall must be held.”

“And to hold it you need men, which I’ve given you... as you might have noted, if your ears heard anything but insults. Take them, thank me, and begone before I’m forced to take a crab fork to you again. Give my warm regards to Lord Mormont... and to Jon Snow as well." ..( Lannisters sending regards is a scary thing ).

For Alliser, everything boils down to a personal level.I doubt he really cares about the politics , and I doubt he can even seriously care about the wall being held , when he repeatedly puts his personal vendettas first. If he truly thought Slynt was Tywin's man, and might have Tywin's ear..if he truly was concerned for the NW and the Wall ,why was he not using his manipulative skills to convince Slynt of the dangers they were facing ,and to pass it on to Tywin, instead of focusing on a way to kill Jon?

Thorne assumes Jon is sending him out to die because it's what he would do ..what he has done ( suicide mission ).

Wind and Snowflakes.

A few scattered snowflakes were falling as they made their slow descent, dancing on the gusty wind. One followed the cage down, drifting just beyond the bars. It was falling faster than they were descending and from time to time would vanish beneath them. Then a gust of wind would catch it and push it upward once again. Jon could have reached through the bars and caught it if he had wished.

I think maybe the single snowflake represents Jon and the path he must follow . It's natural direction is down ,but it keeps meeting with gusts of wind that blow it up ( up is a reversal for a snowflake )..just as Jon keeps meeting with temporary reversals on his path. If he had wished to take Stannis' offer ,he could have "caught it" , put a stop to the process. ( We know why he didn't) .. Jon leaves it to eventually reach it's destination . We have to hope no-one else grabs it and squishes it first.

Edd Tolett is sharing the cage with him... “I had a frightening dream last night, m’lord,” Dolorous Edd confessed. “You were my steward, fetching my food and cleaning up my leavings. I was lord commander, with never a moment’s peace.” ...this reinforces that same scenario for Jon ( never a moment's peace - always having to deal with opposition ), and implies understanding and loyalty from Edd.

The few scattered snowflakes dancing on the gusty wind could also represent the 3 parties of rangers Jon has just sent out. Dancing is frequently synonymous with fighting or battle , and a gusting wind comes intermittently and sometimes, from one direction, then another. The snowflakes are not close together and the gusts can scatter them further. This might actually be a good sign for the survival of Dywen's and Kedge White-eye's groups ... though not for Black Jack Bulwer's ( the one who spat ..mean anything or not ?)

I just want add in this seemingly random Benjen reference..

Not for the first time, or the last, Jon Snow found himself wondering what had become of Benjen Stark. Perhaps the rangers will come upon some sign of them, he told himself, never truly believing it. ....(GRRM's italics ) ... Possibly foreshadowing that they will find , not Benjen , but some sign of his party ? Now that Jon no longer truly believes it, would be perfect GRRM timing.

Speculation Time.. I think Thorne will be back secretly , by one road or another, and take up residence in the cell that Sam found in AFfC , or one very much like it. I think there are more hints to come.

[Lummel]

Given your speculation Bemused, I thought you might have liked the detail that each group of rangers was given two ravens and presumably Thorne would be the only literate one in his group?

I think the possibility of this being Thorne's first, or at least first for a long time, ranging fits well with what we know. I can't see him, as Benjen does, refer to other Night's Watchmen as his brothers. Plainly it would have been a waste to have put him in the Builders, I suppose he could have been a Steward but maybe the chief Steward didn't care for him either at the time?

Master-at-arms is both a senior position, yet requires no actual command over men. It is an ideal dumping ground, in theory, for someone like Thorne who has skills but lacks, er, the people skills :laugh: to be trusted to lead adults. In practice though maybe allowing an embittered man an opportunity to vent his feelings at generations of recruits wasn't the best thing to do for the night's watch as a whole.

[Lummel]

...The subject is so thorny and awkward as to render any attempt at collaboration failed from the start. Martin doesn't go there. In story both Jon and Roose pretend the other one does not even exist.

Yes, I think so, the situation is set up by GRRM not to allow a working relationship between Jon Snow and the Boltons.

Thinking about it what does the letter sent by Ramsey signify? Is the list of signatures meant to serve as an implicit threat (all these guys are on my side?) GRRM only gives us Jon's paraphrase of the letter, we can only guess at the tone Ramsey took. At one level he's posing as the avenger of Winterfell, yet Jon seems only conscious of him as a monster given his thoughts about Arya. Given that Jon was north of the Wall when Bran hears about Ramsey's deeds why does Jon have such a negative impression about Ramsey? As an older child was he already hearing tales about Ramsey before he went to the Wall?

[Mithras]

bemused, I am fully on board with you about Thorne. He has a personal hatred against Starks. First Ned because of winning the rebellion. Then Benjen for possible quarrels in the past. Old rangers have a very low opinion about Thorne and his "highborn" arse but they treated Benjen (who is way more highborn than Thorne) with uppermost respect. Does this mean that the things between Thorne and Benjen were also ugly? Is Thorne jealous about the ascension of Benjen who came to the Wall a couple of years later than him? We know some others were. And would the introduction of Jon Snow threaten his position as a maester-at-arms according to him in AGoT? Since he is a bastard of Winterfell, surely he must have a position worthy of his blood. Remember Thorne was very pissed while Jon was "stealing" away his recruits and his teaching.

I can't see Thorne disappearing like this or simply returning as a wight. He is the main antagonist of Jon from the beginning and his story must be concluded in a certain way.