Jon Snow ReRead Project! Part 5! (DwD)

[The Sleeper]

Yes, I think so, the situation is set up by GRRM not to allow a working relationship between Jon Snow and the Boltons.

Thinking about it what does the letter sent by Ramsey signify? Is the list of signatures meant to serve as an implicit threat (all these guys are on my side?) GRRM only gives us Jon's paraphrase of the letter, we can only guess at the tone Ramsey took. At one level he's posing as the avenger of Winterfell, yet Jon seems only conscious of him as a monster given his thoughts about Arya. Given that Jon was north of the Wall when Bran hears about Ramsey's deeds why does Jon have such a negative impression about Ramsey? As an older child was he already hearing tales about Ramsey before he went to the Wall?

It depends. We know for a fact that the letter was sent to Jon and to Asha. Presumably it was sent to

Torrhen's Square as well. It is my understanding or assumption that letter's were sent all over the north. If that is the case and it is not specifically addressed to the characters we see on-screen, then it needs to be no more than a proclamation of Bolton dominance over the north in an effort to consolidate it. There is also the possibility that it is addressed to Jon an Asha and presumably Dagmer. In either case it also serves as a threat to those who do or might oppose him.

[Mithras]

Given your speculation Bemused, I thought you might have liked the detail that each group of rangers was given two ravens and presumably Thorne would be the only literate one in his group?

I am actually intrigued by this. We know that literacy is not a necessary skill for about the 99% of the NW. Why were these ravens given then? I think the birds can serve as living alarms should the wights/Others come close. We know that animals go spooky upon sensing these creatures and the ravens might flap their wings like hell if they sense the danger coming.

Is it too crackpot?

[Lummel]

Oh, like canaries in a mine? Great idea, I hadn't thought of it like that, but why not?

[bemused]

I am actually intrigued by this. We know that literacy is not a necessary skill for about the 99% of the NW. Why were these ravens given then? I think the birds can serve as living alarms should the wights/Others come close. We know that animals go spooky upon sensing these creatures and the ravens might flap their wings like hell if they sense the danger coming.

Is it too crackpot?

Hmmm... Those ravens... I'm puzzled.

I can't help thinking this problem should have been addressed somehow , given the low literacy level at the wall. But I do wonder if there might not be a clue in the crudely drawn giant we see on the wedding letter.

If an illiterate person can easily learn to "make their mark", perhaps at least some rangers could have a series of universal symbols , like shorthand ? ...e.g. well known landmarks like Craster's ,Whitetree, the Milkwater, etc. could have their own symbols - and one for wildlings ,or attack , the directions of the compass and so on ? That would be easier to teach and faster to learn than a language.

It wouldn't be much good for very detailed communication, but enough for " wildling attack east of Crasters" or some such..

Otherwise , the ravens could only serve as coal mine canaries , or birds flying silent.

( Of course this doesn't explain why no bird has come back, but it might work as a generality )

Thoughts ?

[Lykos]

<snip>, perhaps at least some rangers could have a series of universal symbols , like shorthand ? ...e.g. well known landmarks like Craster's ,Whitetree, the Milkwater, etc. could have their own symbols - and one for wildlings ,or attack , the directions of the compass and so on ? That would be easier to teach and faster to learn than a language.<snip>

I think it´s something like this.

Sam in Storm, Chapter 18.

He had written out the messages ahead of time, short messages and simple, telling of an attack on the Fist of the First Men, and then he had tucked them away safe in his parchment pouch, hoping he would never need to send them.

[Lummel]

But if they are using pre-written messages then at least one man in each party has to be able to read - else they might send back the wrong message by accident!

[bemused]

I think it´s something like this.

Sam in Storm, Chapter 18.

Aha! I had forgotten that bit from Sam's POV.. ETA; to clarify, my Aha! was for "short and simple" (as symbols would be ), not "pre-written." They couldn't have pre-written scrolls to suit every contingency.

On another short topic ;) , I think " Lord Dustin " on the wedding letter / announcement must be one of those GRRM mistakes . Lady Dustin has been the head of that house for 17 yrs. or more ,and has no children ( or is not known to have any .. nudge , nudge..). Everyone would know that ,or could easily confirm it , so I can't see what advantage the misrepresentation would be to the sender .

[Ibbison from Ibben]

But if they are using pre-written messages then at least one man in each party has to be able to read - else they might send back the wrong message by accident!

In pre-printing press days, reading and writing were usually two entirely different skills. Many people could read a few words (enough to make sense out of simple messages - just sound it out), but had trouble forming letters on the page and lacked the mental discipline to compose sentences. Charlemagne was supposedly able to read to some extent, but never mastered writing. Pre-written messages might work in a case like this.

[Fire Eater]

I can't see Thorne disappearing like this or simply returning as a wight. He is the main antagonist of Jon from the beginning and his story must be concluded in a certain way.

I wonder if it would be Jon saving his life. A part of me thinks Throne would hate that, especially since he had tried to have Jon killed a few times, and nothing despises some people more than their percieved antagonist actually being a better person than they are. Thorne would alos feel in debt to Jon.

Another addition to these sudden gust of winds.

“I beg you in the name of the Mother,” Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king’s shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly’s sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword…

The shadow assassin to slay Renly came with a sudden gust of wind.

Also,

A cold gust of wind blew up her [sansa's] legs

I think Sansa will kill LF when he tries to get between her legs.

[-Winterfellian-]

The wind is a curious image here. Osha tells Bran it is the voice of the old gods and there are some curious uses of wind relating to Bloodraven. Arya's cloak being pulled by the wind on Highheart comes to mind as one example. Here we have:

The wind is pulling his cloak behind him where Mel is following him. Not sure what to make of the "teeth" of the wind especially in light of the later "teeth" reference in regard to Mel.

There is also the contrast between the cold of the wind and the warmth coming off Mel.

Really neat analysis as always Ragnorak!

Am a little late, but I wanted to add some thoughts about the presence of wind in his chapter. I think it plays on a sort of bag caught in the wind motif symbolizing a character’s absence of control in the events unfolding around him/her. The first mention of the wind comes in this paragraph:

A few scattered snowflakes were falling as they made their slow descent, dancing on the gusty wind. One followed the cage down, drifting just beyond the bars. It was falling faster than they were descending and from time to time would vanish beneath them. Then a gust of wind would catch it and push it upward once again. Jon could have reached through the bars and caught it if he had wished.

I think we have been seeing elements of entrapment in the last few chapters and the above is another example. Much like the snowflake, Jon, the NW and even Mel to some degree are precipitating against circumstances over which they seem helpless. The actions unfolding somewhere else, whether at hands of a supernatural threat or as a direct result of the GOT, are pulling them as easily as the wind toys with the snowflake. Much like the wind, which cannot be seen but can be felt, Jon and company are feeling and reacting to the effects of situations taking place leagues away from where they are.

So, how to regain control? While Mel, unfazed by the cold wind and thinking she understands the forces she’s contending against, seems to advocate for a more “magical solution” Jon is hesitant:

Jon could have reached through the bars and caught it if he had wished.

I think Jon’s hesitation in reaching for the snowflake, while foreshadowing his reaction to Mel’s offer later in the chapter, it also mirrors the indecision of his actions in terms of how much to limit his own involvement in the affairs of the Realm (taking in to account that this affairs are already directly intervening with the NW). “Arya” causes Jon’s heart to become conflicted between the love for his sister and the expectation to severe past ties that he believes is part of being a member of the Watch.

While we can make a case for the ‘love is the bane of duty’ angle, it is interesting to note that Jon also reflects pursuing the path he believes as duty will leave him with a black heart. Is this really such a desirable thing?

In the end, rather than making some sort of full grab for control Jon restraints himself and contents to play by the sidelines.

[butterbumps!]

This struck me. There's the clean and dirty hands theme, but also the weirwood image itself-- a heart tree with red hand-like leaves. There's an obvious intentions vs. actions meaning but this line has a great deal of possibility given the in series theme surrounding hearts and hands. More so with Mel specifically and her contrast to the old gods and the hand theme that ends the chapter emphasize it.

..............

What struck me this time was the exchange with Mel. We've mentioned before that she gives him the warning about the rangers after he's already sent them out. He couldn't act on it if he wanted to. Unless Mel only saw this vision at this evening's night fire, she deliberately withheld it from Jon. If she did only see it at this evening's night fire than it was a pretty damn useless prophetic vision since the rangers were already gone.

....................

What really struck me is that Jon touches Ghost and has his perceptions heightened, or is "seeing" through Ghost when he first sees Mel and mistakes her for Ygritte.

I'm not settled on viewing the scene as Mel's glamor specifically targeting Ghost and Jon's perceiving it being outside of Mel's intent, but it does offer a different angle to ponder.

1. I absolutely love your "heart vs hands" explanation-- that intention doesn't matter, but action does. I think that's a great interpretation of that line, though, I think I disagree with the content of it (I do find intentions important).

2. I understood this as Mel's having seen the vision previously and purposely withholding it. We'll see this expanded on a bit in her next chapter, but she's convinced that Jon is simply an "unbeliever," and therefore, needs to prove her visions/ power is real. I think she played this such that she knew the outcome in advance, figured Jon wouldn't believe her even if she came forward before, and tells him afterward to use it as a sort of "trapping of power."

She's trying to convince him that she's extremely powerful with the assumption that he will automatically trust her as soon as he believes she has power. She doesn't realize that he believes she has power, but simply doesn't trust her. I think by relaying the message after the ranging was set in motion, she thought she'd come across as more powerful and awe-inspiring than had she sought him out to plead a warning-- she's not making appeals to him, but showing him that she has power that is useful to him and won't just give it away for free. i.e. make him believe she's so necessary to him that he's compelled to "court" her rather than vice versa.

I think there's some irony here in that the message this sends is that she's not concerned with what's best for Jon or the Watch, but rather, in convincing people that she's powerful. So she's proving the point that didn't need to be proven, and working against the issue that's the true roadblock (Jon's trusting her motives). I wonder if she'd intervened prior whether Jon would have been more receptive about trusting her motives in the next chapters.

3. I think you may be right, and that Jon's confusion of Mel for Ygritte may be caused by her manipulating Ghost's expectations, and Jon's seeing it through the wolf's eyes. But I'm not sure if it's a glamour or something more akin to scent manipulation: Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.

It looks like the smell of the air changed to match Ygritte's and Jon turns with the expectation of seeing her so that that's what he saw. I wonder if Mel managed to find some article belonging to Ygritte and used this to confuse Ghost into being tame, and in so doing, momentarily confused Jon as well. So I wonder if it's a glamour, or rather, creating an expectation to see something (via scent), so that's what someone will see.

Frankly, I think that neither man mentioned the eminently logical potential of the Gifts as a food source because of their agendas: Jon wanted to stress the importance of keeping the gates open and going out there, while Marsh wanted to stress how limited their food supplies were and that they couldn't afford to feed extra mouths.

............

But isn't Mance even worse when seen from this angle?! The books prior to Jon's election have been stressing the image of NW as a family, the members of it as brothers. Well, from this PoV Mance not only broke oaths made in front of a heart tree, but he turned on and murdered a good number of his brothers. Were those who brought Mance to the wildling wisewoman, fearing for his life, among those he killed, I wonder? Anyway, I find Jon's suggestion of sparing and using Mance frankly mind-boggling.

Jon has been proposed as a figure to whom it falls to provide justice denied elsewhere - but this is the worst perversion of justice possible! Yes, Mance is likeable, but he is completely untrustworthy as far as NW or indeed anybody south of the Wall is concerned and more than deserves an execution.

I agree that Jon's beheading of Slynt was just, but when juxtaposed with his pleading for Mance's life, it doesn't look that way. Mance is 100x guiltier than Slynt, after all, and where Slynt only refused to obey an LC, Mance turned on NW as a whole and hurt them badly over the years.

Now, rank and file crows don't know about Jon's advocacy for Mance at this point, but they will learn about him being alive and seemingly in cahoots with Jon immediately prior to the stabbing. Hm...

Suggestion of sparing Mance is so bad from every angle i.e. :

Jon tried to present NW to the wildlings as an oganization to respect and fear - but sparing Mance would blatantly demonstrate that you can betray NW in the worst way and get away with it.

Complete miscarriage of justice, that was sure to enrage brothers who have lost friends to Mance and reasonably feel betrayed by him. Ditto Rage and likely opposition of the northern lords who have suffered from Mance - i.e. Umbers wanting his skull for a cup.

Zero reason to believe that Mance wouldn't turn on NW (and Stannis ) again, once he re-unites the fugitives and brings superior numbers of wildlings behind the Wall. He rationalized his first treason, the second one would be even easier.

IMHO, an actual wildling leader, such as Tormund, is much preferrable to Mance. At least, he always was a honest enemy, rather than a traitor from within, and it is believable that he might keep his faith.

The Gift does get brought up in Jon IV, but Bowen and Jon don't see it as particularly lucrative at this stage because there isn't enough time for a harvest.

On Mance, I don't see sparing him "bad from every angle" at all. It really depends on which angle you're looking at and choosing to emphasize. I'm not negating what you bring up as negatives, but think there's more to consider.

If Stannis chose to publicly spare him, I do think this could have had a beneficial effect on corralling the now-scattered wildlings beyond the Wall. Yes, Tormund is out there and a good option for some degree of unity, but the fact is that Tormund isn't Mance and we see he's unable to unify them the way Mance had. I think if we're looking at this from the angle of what's best for the wildlings, and by extension, preventing the Others from increasing their wight army that will be sent at the Wall, sending Mance to regroup would yield a positive outcome. For this to work, though, it would be absolutely critical that the pardon would come from Stannis rather than Jon, and more importantly, that this was done on the condition that Mance would appeal to the wildlings to make common cause with the Watch and fight alongside them.

I think there's also virtue in publicly portraying Mance as a prisoner guilty of desertion, while privately making use of him as a councilor. He has a lot of wisdom and knowledge of wildling dynamics, and has tried to fight the main enemy himself. I think it would be a waste to kill him given his knowledge of the wildlings and the Others. There's virtue in publicly executing him as a message of Stannis' dominance, but I think there may have been virtue in showing mercy in terms of winning wildling trust.

I'm also curious about how this might have played out in the event Stannis, Jon, Mel and Mance were all active, knowing participants in the sparing by death-fake out. If we look past the miscarriage of justice this requires, it does satisfy most of the negative ramifications in terms of keeping order and sending messages of dominance. Mance is incredibly skilled, Mel has a way of controlling him, and I wonder if there would have been a way to better make use of him than the Arya mission.

Re: Jon and the Boltons.

Theoretically speaking, one would expect a new LC to have some kind of formal audience with the warden of the North. In the particular situation, the LC would inform the warden of the situation north of Wall and establish correspondence in order to formulate a strategy to deal with it. In fact, "Arya's" would be precisely the occasion the LC should especially as he is "related" to the bride. His presence there would make a much more substancial gesture of neutrality, particularly considering he would be dealing with the warden of the north rather than the Iron Throne directly and Ramsay's firs letter ca be seen s an invitation.

In practice that was never going to happen. Regardless of what Roose did to keep his involvement in the RW obscured there are the publicly known facts, that he is allied with the Frey's, that he has a Frey bride, that he left the RW unscathed, that he was named warden of the north. He is for all intents and purposes the representative of the Lannisters in the north and there is no reason to be circumspect about it, Jon hates their guts. Jon's presence at the wedding couldbe seen s approval orat the cvery least acquiscience on his part of his sister's wedding to Ramsay. There is also te fact tha any attempt on his part to contact the Boltons could put him at odds with Stannis. From the Bolton's perspective they know all that, plus the fact that Jon can demolish their plans for Winterfell and they are more aware of circumstances in which they ascended than Jon. Even if they could expect Jon to act in good faith and maintain perfect neutrality, a LC which is a living reminder of the house they supplanted as wardens will never be comfortable to them.

To all that we have to add the impossibility of having to simultaneously collaborate with two factions that are actively at war with one another.

The subject is so thorny and awkward as to render any attempt at collaboration failed from the start. Martin doesn't go there. In story both Jon and Roose pretend the other one does not even exist.

Yes, I think so, the situation is set up by GRRM not to allow a working relationship between Jon Snow and the Boltons.

Thinking about it what does the letter sent by Ramsey signify? Is the list of signatures meant to serve as an implicit threat (all these guys are on my side?) GRRM only gives us Jon's paraphrase of the letter, we can only guess at the tone Ramsey took. At one level he's posing as the avenger of Winterfell, yet Jon seems only conscious of him as a monster given his thoughts about Arya. Given that Jon was north of the Wall when Bran hears about Ramsey's deeds why does Jon have such a negative impression about Ramsey? As an older child was he already hearing tales about Ramsey before he went to the Wall?

I don't think Jon knew of Ramsay prior to going to the Wall. In aCoK, Rodrik and Luwin discuss the Hornwood debacle, and they mention that they hadn't heard of Ramsay before this, so I think it's unlikely Jon would have known much either.

But I agree with you both that the idea of Jon/ Watch - Bolton cooperation is presented as a moot point.

To add, even if Jon doesn't know about Robb's will or the full details of Ramsay's antics, he does know that the Boltons have no reason to love him and he knows there was foul play in terms of their post RW bounty. I'd also point out that Jon (or anyone for that matter) would have every reason in the world to not attend a wedding hosted by uncertain "allies" in this day and age, being as how deadly weddings have become. It looks like less of an invitation and more of a trap given the course of aSoS.

[Mithras]

I think the smoke for lust just stimulates the brain portion responsible for desires. The user does not need to know them.

“Men see what they expect to see,” Varys said as he fussed and pulled.

“And at Winterfell, Sansa was a little girl with auburn hair. My daughter is a maiden tall and fair, and her hair is chestnut. Men see what they expect to see, Alayne.”

“The spell is made of shadow and suggestion. Men see what they expect to see. The bones are part of that.”

She's trying to convince him that she's extremely powerful with the assumption that he will automatically trust her as soon as he believes she has power.

So far, this works well for Stannis. Her feeble tricks and farces (leech burning) persuade him that she has power. She is exploiting the dire conditions of Stannis to make him a part of the sins she is willing to do. She will later exploit Jon's dire condition in regards to (f)Arya-Ramsay marriage.

[butterbumps!]

I think the smoke for lust just stimulates the brain portion responsible for desires. The user does not need to know them.

“Men see what they expect to see,” Varys said as he fussed and pulled.

“And at Winterfell, Sansa was a little girl with auburn hair. My daughter is a maiden tall and fair, and her hair is chestnut. Men see what they expect to see, Alayne.”

“The spell is made of shadow and suggestion. Men see what they expect to see. The bones are part of that.”

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you posited here and before about the "smoke for lust" is that it would operate similarly to wierpaste, shade of the evening and the candles that burn at the HotU, in that their taste/ scent becomes the taste/ scent of the deepest desires of the sensor.

I'd agree with that more as a possibility (as in, it was just a scent that becomes defined by the sensor's desire without an inherent quality) if Ghost weren't also being duped. Ghost appears to be having some sort of interference, and he's possibly the agent who started smelling the summery scent in the first place. Would Ghost truly be fooled by a "lust smoke," and if so, would he be reminded of Ygritte by it?

[Lummel]

... Would Ghost truly be fooled by a "lust smoke," and if so, would he be reminded of Ygritte by it?

Are you suggesting that Ghost lusted after Ygritte? **faints with horror at this species transgression**

[Mithras]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you posited here and before about the "smoke for lust" is that it would operate similarly to wierpaste, shade of the evening and the candles that burn at the HotU, in that their taste/ scent becomes the taste/ scent of the deepest desires of the sensor.

I'd agree with that more as a possibility (as in, it was just a scent that becomes defined by the sensor's desire without an inherent quality) if Ghost weren't also being duped. Ghost appears to be having some sort of interference, and he's possibly the agent who started smelling the summery scent in the first place. Would Ghost truly be fooled by a "lust smoke," and if so, would he be reminded of Ygritte by it?

Since the smoke is something close to being magical, I would not be surprised if Mel was able to dupe Ghost. Of course, normally a wolf can tell a person from the smell. Casso recognized Arya, who was wearing a different face but smelling the same (except the stink of fish). But that might be not entirely because of Arya's smell. Arya is a strong skinchanger. So much time spent with Casso (she fed him and liked him) might start a little skinchanger-connection between them.

The Stark wolves like the people their owners like and vice versa. Jon's desire of Ygritte might be projected onto Ghost.

By the way, even without a warg connection (in the real life), I have witnessed that dogs can easily tell it whether its owner likes the person in front of them or not.

[butterbumps!]

Are you suggesting that Ghost lusted after Ygritte? **faints with horror at this species transgression**

lol, no no-- I'm saying that I doubt Ghost would, so the idea of this being traced to a "lust powder" might be dubious if the origination of Jon's Ygritte image is being seen through Ghost.

Since the smoke is something close to being magical, I would not be surprised if Mel was able to dupe Ghost. Of course, normally a wolf can tell a person from the smell. Casso recognized Arya, who was wearing a different face but smelling the same (except the stink of fish). But that might be not entirely because of Arya's smell. Arya is a strong skinchanger. So much time spent with Casso (she fed him and liked him) might start a little skinchanger-connection between them.

The Stark wolves like the people their owners like and vice versa. Jon's desire of Ygritte might be projected onto Ghost.

By the way, even without a warg connection (in the real life), I have witnessed that dogs can easily tell it whether its owner likes the person in front of them or not.

So, that's kind of what I think is going on here, and my suspicion is that it might be slightly more mundane than even powders and the like. Ghost would see Ygritte as someone who wasn't a threat to Jon and whom Jon liked, so changing her scent to Ygritte's as a way of having Ghost identify her as a Jon-friendly party would be a way to insulate herself from the direwolf's potential suspicion, and make Jon's reluctance to trust her seem a little crazy. It would also explain the disconnect occurring between Jon and Ghost; Ghost seems confused by Jon's reaction to Mel, looking at Jon as though he's a stranger. If Ghost is identifying Mel as Ygritte all this while, Ygritte being a person he knows means Jon no harm, then this would seem to explain why Ghost seems so confused by the way Jon's behaving toward Mel.

I'll be up later today with Mel I.

[Ragnorak]

1. I absolutely love your "heart vs hands" explanation-- that intention doesn't matter, but action does. I think that's a great interpretation of that line, though, I think I disagree with the content of it (I do find intentions important).

2. I understood this as Mel's having seen the vision previously and purposely withholding it. We'll see this expanded on a bit in her next chapter, but she's convinced that Jon is simply an "unbeliever," and therefore, needs to prove her visions/ power is real. I think she played this such that she knew the outcome in advance, figured Jon wouldn't believe her even if she came forward before, and tells him afterward to use it as a sort of "trapping of power."

...

3. I think you may be right, and that Jon's confusion of Mel for Ygritte may be caused by her manipulating Ghost's expectations, and Jon's seeing it through the wolf's eyes. But I'm not sure if it's a glamour or something more akin to scent manipulation: Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.

It looks like the smell of the air changed to match Ygritte's and Jon turns with the expectation of seeing her so that that's what he saw. I wonder if Mel managed to find some article belonging to Ygritte and used this to confuse Ghost into being tame, and in so doing, momentarily confused Jon as well. So I wonder if it's a glamour, or rather, creating an expectation to see something (via scent), so that's what someone will see.

...

I think intentions matter too and such a basic split is a little too simplistic for this series, but it was a start. I suspect that with enough references a pattern might emerge. "Bloody hands" is the positive moral image and the heart is the place of and source for blood and that might offer a better starting angle. The heart is where mercy can be found to stay the First Men executioner's hand. There is a connection involving responsibility for one's intentions and ones actions that blends the two when the decision is moral bloody hands one (as opposed to a Red or Purple Wedding clean hands choice.) With the heart tree weirwood leaves looking like bloody hands it can't be meaningless.

I like the smell angle of manipulating Ghost and I do think Mel's various powders offer possibilities like Paper Waver pointed out. When Mel says Ghost's name and makes a song of it I think there's a separate magical thing going on. The sung name seems to be the thing that disrupts Jon's connection while the smell seems to be what gives Ghost his initial positive reaction to Mel.

Still not sure what to make of it in light of Lummel's "everything is not what it seems" theme. Jon has a heightened perception to accurately see how a thing is not as it seems? Jon's making choices based on a certain objective criteria indifferent to how things seem? He treats the ranger who doesn't want to be a ranger like a ranger. He refuses to head south for Arya like he did Ned even though she isn't Arya. He gives Mance the respect he would have even though he thinks he's Rattleshirt. Is there a moral compass undertone here with the illusions or obscured knowledge and choices? A comment about leadership and imperfect information? I do think Lummel struck on something with his "deliberately obscured" observation regarding the whole chapter. This Mel/Ghost scene clearly plays into that though I'm not really sure how to best read it in that context.

And I think you're dead on regarding Mel and her mistaking "power" and "trust."

Really neat analysis as always Ragnorak!

Am a little late, but I wanted to add some thoughts about the presence of wind in his chapter. I think it plays on a sort of bag caught in the wind motif symbolizing a character’s absence of control in the events unfolding around him/her. The first mention of the wind comes in this paragraph:

I think we have been seeing elements of entrapment in the last few chapters and the above is another example. Much like the snowflake, Jon, the NW and even Mel to some degree are precipitating against circumstances over which they seem helpless. The actions unfolding somewhere else, whether at hands of a supernatural threat or as a direct result of the GOT, are pulling them as easily as the wind toys with the snowflake. Much like the wind, which cannot be seen but can be felt, Jon and company are feeling and reacting to the effects of situations taking place leagues away from where they are.

So, how to regain control? While Mel, unfazed by the cold wind and thinking she understands the forces she’s contending against, seems to advocate for a more “magical solution” Jon is hesitant:

I think Jon’s hesitation in reaching for the snowflake, while foreshadowing his reaction to Mel’s offer later in the chapter, it also mirrors the indecision of his actions in terms of how much to limit his own involvement in the affairs of the Realm (taking in to account that this affairs are already directly intervening with the NW). “Arya” causes Jon’s heart to become conflicted between the love for his sister and the expectation to severe past ties that he believes is part of being a member of the Watch.

While we can make a case for the ‘love is the bane of duty’ angle, it is interesting to note that Jon also reflects pursuing the path he believes as duty will leave him with a black heart. Is this really such a desirable thing?

In the end, rather than making some sort of full grab for control Jon restraints himself and contents to play by the sidelines.

I really like this. Especially the caged Jon watching the snowflake.

[bemused]

I used to firmly think that Mel must have something of Ygritte's , and while I still do think it's possible, it would be pretty lucky, given that Stannis captured a relatively small number of wildlings.

I was struck by Mel's list of useful items for generating glamours in her up-coming chapter , and the way it evokes the well known ," A woman is nothing but a rag , a bone , and a hank of hair". This could connect with Varamyr's victims, and how he "took a hank of their hair to remember them by". Because he's such a domineering git , it's easy to think of these as just his creepy trophies , but what if it's also a fairly common practice between lovers ..just as simple mementos ? ..Jon stopped Ygritte from telling him about all her lovers - he didn't want to know. Maybe an ex-lover of Ygritte's was among the captives questioned by Mel and Stannis ... Now I wonder if that wouldn't be too much of a coincidence. ( So I'm back to maybe on that )

Another possibility would be if one of the NW had taken something from Ygritte as she was dying - before Jon found her and saw to burning her body ( the usual recycling of useful items - a knife, her boots, etc.) ... Jon burned her body himself, and I doubt he'd want it being picked over , but though we don't see it , he might have kept some token of remembrance , himself .

Because the illusion is so fleeting, there's also the possibility of something more generic being used, say , a sample from some other redhaired wildling girl . It would only have to be enough to cause the sort of double take we're all familiar with, when (e.g.) we momentarily mistake someone across the street for someone we know... As soon as she speaks , she's obviously Mel.

And the location could play into the illusion as well.

He found Ygritte sprawled across a patch of old snow beneath the Lord Commander’s Tower, with an arrow between her breasts. The ice crystals had settled over her face, and in the moonlight it looked as though she wore a glittering silver mask. ...ASoS

She stood beneath the scorched stones of the Lord Commander’s Tower, cloaked in darkness and in memory. The light of the moon was in her hair, her red hair kissed by fire. ...ADwD

So this meeting is on the spot where Ygritte died. Could the location itself act like Rattleshirt's bones? The bones remember. Does the earth and the ruined LC's Tower remember ,too ? Both events take place by moonlight. The "glittering silver mask" of the dying Ygritte perhaps foreshadowing that an Ygritte "mask" will be briefly worn by Mel.

So we have possible visual deception and other tricks as well..

Jon’s heart leapt into his mouth. “Ygritte,” he said.

“Lord Snow.” The voice was Melisandre’s

................

At night all robes are grey. Yet suddenly hers were red. He did not understand how

he could have taken her for Ygritte. She was taller, thinner, older, though the moonlight washed years from her face.

................

She gazed at Ghost. “May I touch your … wolf?”

................

“Ghost.” Melisandre made the word a song.

The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held

out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers.

Jon let out a white breath. “He is not always so …”

“… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow.” Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark.

At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost’s eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. “Ghost,” he called. “To me.”

The direwolf looked at him as if he were a stranger.

Jon frowned in disbelief. “That’s … queer.”

“You think so?” She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. “Your Wall is a queer place, but

there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your

mistake. Embrace it. Use it.”

I am not a wolf, he thought. “And how would I do that?”

“I can show you.” Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her

face. “The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.”

In Mel's chapter we'll see that she can play tricks with her voice, and when she makes Ghost's name a song we don't know if Jon and Ghost hear exactly the same thing. There's some sort of manipulation here.

When Jon calls "Ghost , to me" ..does Ghost hear him differently ,or maybe not at all ? If Mel can cause two people in the same room to hear a word differently.. we don't know what else she can do in this regard.

I too suspect Mel's powders being used to some effect . But I think initially , Ghost just may not know what to make of her scent ..

1) At first, through Ghost's senses, Jon smells warmth

2) Ghost has experienced the smell of the living ,the dead, and maybe something a bit different in the wights

3) The scent of Mel herself may be something he hasn't experienced before . There may be something of death about her.. but not like the newly dead ..yet not cold, like the wights ...and without the scents that come from normal living that a dog or wolf would detect. ..Her blood is black, not like living blood . She eats only for show and if the fires are within her, what she eats would be burned away .. no normal eliminations ( If that's not too crude ) ;)

4) If Ghost can sense Jon's emotions, Jon has just reacted to Mel as if she was Ygritte ( his mate , from Ghost's POV)

So at first Ghost is wary, but when he circles close enough and she holds out her hand to him, then I think there must be residue of one of her powders on her fingers ..( perhaps even on her cheek) to complete the ensorscelment ( or whatever we should call it ).

And from there , she launches into her main purpose, the seduction of Jon with shadow babies in mind.

I believe she's right in that there is power in Jon and in Ghost as well as the Wall , but I don't think she understands it properly at all . perhaps she could show Jon how to use ( not bond with ) Ghost , but I don't think that's the purpose of the bond. She wants to use the power in the Wall and in Jon to accomplish her own agenda , but to judge by signs coming up in her chapter ,at least some of the" forces" she thinks need defeating may be central to the wall holding.

[Lummel]

...She's trying to convince him that she's extremely powerful with the assumption that he will automatically trust her as soon as he believes she has power. She doesn't realize that he believes she has power, but simply doesn't trust her. I think by relaying the message after the ranging was set in motion, she thought she'd come across as more powerful and awe-inspiring than had she sought him out to plead a warning-- she's not making appeals to him, but showing him that she has power that is useful to him and won't just give it away for free. i.e. make him believe she's so necessary to him that he's compelled to "court" her rather than vice versa...

This strikes me as an interesting parallel with Tyrion and the Lannisters. Essentially she is trying to buy her way into intimacy with Jon. Her coin is not gold but display of knowledge or secret intelligence but the mechanism is the same. One can get what one wants by providing an appropriate price for it (the same it seems goes for magic as a whole at least for Melisandre and the faceless men).

However as we know this attitude is alien to the starks, their family philosophy is more values orientated in the bloody hands sense - one should draw ones own conclusions, one should carry out the deed yourself, one does live with responsibility. Others like the Lannisters and Melisandre, are able to out-source or compartmentalise these problems. Melisandre as we know does have bloody, er a bloody something even if not precisely hands but she is able to file it under necessary for the greater good.

[Mithras]

“If even half the stories coming back from Slaver’s Bay are true, this child is a monster. They say that she is bloodthirsty, that those who speak against her are impaled on spikes to die lingering deaths. They say she is a sorceress who feeds her dragons on the flesh of newborn babes, an oathbreaker who mocks the gods, breaks truces, threatens envoys, and turns on those who have served her loyally. They say her lust cannot be sated, that she mates with men, women, eunuchs, even dogs and children, and woe betide the lover who fails to satisfy her. She gives her body to men to take their souls in thrall.”

Oh, good, thought Tyrion. If she gives her body to me, she is welcome to my soul, small and stunted though it is.

As Qavo suggested, “The best calumnies are spiced with truth.” I think above quote more or less can be applied to Mel as well.