Alytha Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Not sure if I posted this here already, but I've always interpreted the Garden situation like Valinor and Middle Earth. It's a physical place on the same planet, but unreachable due to to metaphysical / magic stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Alytha,I've always thought it was another planet because I thought Osten Ard was more grounded in reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alytha Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Ok, but the flying tree in Hyperion nothwithstanding, wooden space ships are rather rare ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Alytha,They flew through space with magic. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 They flew through space with magic. No reason why not. Malazan has some of this, so does the D&D universe (Spelljammer reprezent!) and Sanderson uses it in his novels :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alytha Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Pffft...magic... :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 DC,"Ocean" could be metaphore for space. Before I reread the series earlier this year, I thought this as well based on vague memories from when I read it back in the early 90s. But on reread, it's really quite obvious imo that it's not a metaphor for space. There's too many references to things like the spray of water in their face and such. Just the way they talk about it doesn't support the space metaphor except in one single passage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Shryke,It has been a while since I re-read MST. Il'l have to read it again in advance of this series. Il'l comment further then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night's_King Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 While I have fond memories of Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, the story and world building aren't exactly very deep. Is there any reason for a sequel other than money? As these books will probably come with tons of retcon I'm not looking forward to them. What? I always was of the opinion, that MS&T had one of the best worldbuilding in fantasy literature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Simon and Miriamele are rather insufferable characters and a few tropes are overused and it's too long. But overall it is quite good (although I am not sure I will read it again and will wait for a few reviews befor buying the new one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Oh, dear God, is this going to devolve into another "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" debate? I like Simon and Miriamele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night's_King Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Oh, dear God, is this going to devolve into another "Mary Sue/Gary Stu" debate? I like Simon and Miriamele.I hope not. I really like them two and think that they are great and even relatable characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColdDrake Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Insufferable is putting it mildly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 If you don't like them don't read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night's_King Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 If you don't like them don't read it. Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 I made it through (15 or more years ago) despite them, but I do not think I'll read it again any time soon. And I didn't say they are Mary Sues. They are just insufferable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 What? I always was of the opinion, that MS&T had one of the best worldbuilding in fantasy literature. Really? I'd say it's got a decent feel when it comes to it's immortal races, but worldbuilding is shallow as hell. The world feels REALLY REALLY tiny and almost every part of it is really underdeveloped. It's like if Western Europe in the Middle Ages was the only part of the world that existed or something. And there's very little sense of the culture of basically anywhere. I mean, it doesn't really hurt the story too much (the smallness is really weird and enough to detract a bit) but that doesn't mean it's that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night's_King Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Really? I'd say it's got a decent feel when it comes to it's immortal races, but worldbuilding is shallow as hell. The world feels REALLY REALLY tiny and almost every part of it is really underdeveloped. It's like if Western Europe in the Middle Ages was the only part of the world that existed or something. And there's very little sense of the culture of basically anywhere. I mean, it doesn't really hurt the story too much (the smallness is really weird and enough to detract a bit) but that doesn't mean it's that good. Well, most fantasy stories are set in a world, not much bigger than Europe. Do we know how big the world really is? No. I thought Osten Ard was just like a continent in a bigger world. Like Middle-Earth for example. And I had the feeling, that Williams made a great job with the different cultures. They have unique names, words and lifestyles. I really don't know what your problem is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinrei Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 It's like if Western Europe in the Middle Ages was the only part of the world that existed or something. And there's very little sense of the culture of basically anywhere. I don't want to sound snarky, but i guess you didn't read that book very closely. There is a much wider culture and era spread than western europe and the middle-ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Well, most fantasy stories are set in a world, not much bigger than Europe. Do we know how big the world really is? No. I thought Osten Ard was just like a continent in a bigger world. Like Middle-Earth for example. Middle-Earth can be bad for that too, but even it's far better then this series. While most fantasy stories confine their action to a distinct area, there is still the rest of the world out there. Osten Ard is a fucking bubble consisting of 4 countries and some horsie people running around in the middle, some swamp people in the south and nothing but wasteland other then that. There is literally nothing outside Prestor Jon's kingdom but some small settlements of elves and trolls. Middle-Earth at least has all the bad brown-skinned people to the east, an area that is implied to be huge and go on and on. And even the kingdoms there are feel pretty small, with a handful of major settlements. It doesn't matter to the story that much, but it's really weird and quite noticeable to me on reread. It's not terribly great worldbuilding. And I had the feeling, that Williams made a great job with the different cultures. They have unique names, words and lifestyles. I really don't know what your problem is. They have unique styles of language, yes, but largely aren't all that different in action from one another and their cultures are never gone in to in great detail. They are all rather vaguely about the same other then some names and what's happening to each kingdom. There's not a terrible lot of differentiation going on with how they live and act. Only the trolls or the swamp people or horsie people feel at all different and they are all shown fairly shallowly. It's not actively hurting the story of anything for the most part, but claiming it's "one of the best in fantasy literature" is just stretching like mad. It's a tiny bubble world populated by a small handful of countries with vastly different naming schemes but little to differentiate them otherwise. The one thing he does really well though is the people generally feel adequately religious. A thing not many authors cover well imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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