Season 4 Impressions

[Ser Pounce FTW]

They haven't done the Tysha conversation because a) jaime and Tyrion only ever think of each otyer afterards and so that conflict could not be translated to screen b ) they never meet again in the books, making Tyrion's words an empty threat or c) sad and defeated Tyrion is as far as they are willing to go with Tyrion and I doubt we'll get the mysogynist that he is in book 5 on the show. If they do go there next season, great. if not, I won't be missing it too much because the show has had enough problems with sex equality until now and has been rightly criticised for it most of the time.

How do you know if Tyrion and Jaime will not meet again? I don't think they excluded the Tysha revelation for any other reason than it doesn't amount to much in the books other than Tyrion walking around asking where whores go.

[messem]

How do you know if Tyrion and Jaime will not meet again? I don't think they excluded the Tysha revelation for any other reason than it doesn't amount to much in the books other than Tyrion walking around asking where whores go.

:agree:

[stannisismyking]

I liked the beetle scene because the characters felt truly alive without the need to push another piece of plot or character exposition on us. It was just Tyrion reflecting on his life and the arbitrary nature of violence and the gods and everything else in the universe and jaime just goes 'wtf is he going on about'..it was lorious; it also showed a Tyrion that was a bit more nasty but still perceptive because he acknowledged that when he tried to be like everybody else mocking his cousin he knew it was cruel.

The beetle scene caught me off guard the first time around because I was on edge waiting for the Big Fight. But I really enjoyed it the second time around. I liked the little glimpse into their childhood.

The "quieter" scenes end up being my favourites a lot of the time.

[Annara Snow]

They haven't done the Tysha conversation because a) jaime and Tyrion only ever think of each otyer afterards and so that conflict could not be translated to screen b ) they never meet again in the books, making Tyrion's words an empty threat or c) sad and defeated Tyrion is as far as they are willing to go with Tyrion and I doubt we'll get the mysogynist that he is in book 5 on the show. If they do go there next season, great. if not, I won't be missing it too much because the show has had enough problems with sex equality until now and has been rightly criticised for it most of the time.

I liked the beetle scene because the characters felt truly alive without the need to push another piece of plot or character exposition on us. It was just Tyrion reflecting on his life and the arbitrary nature of violence and the gods and everything else in the universe and jaime just goes 'wtf is he going on about'..it was lorious; it also showed a Tyrion that was a bit more nasty but still perceptive because he acknowledged that when he tried to be like everybody else mocking his cousin he knew it was cruel.

How would learning the truth about Tysha lead to Tyrion becoming more misogynist?! Wouldn't it only make sense to be the opposite - that he's more likely to be more misogynistic since he has no "good woman who really loved me" figure in Tysha as opposed to just"the bitch who betrayed me" Shae? In the show, Tyrion now thinks Tysha never loved him and Shae betrayed him and wanted him dead and, going by his dialogue in Mockingbird, he also thinks Shae never loved him really. If anything, the lack of Tysha should only make it even more likely that he would be misogynistic.

Also, what does Tyrion being misogynistic have to do with sex equality? If anything, the show is more sexist for whitewashing Tyrion and prioritizing his perspective every time over the female characters who cross his paths. Even the storyline about Sansa's forced marriage somehow became all about Tyrion, what a hero he is for not raping his underage unwilling hostage bride, how Sansa needed to learn what an awesome guy he is :rolleyes: and how this would affect Tyrion's relationship with Shae, with Sansa herself as a supporting character in Tyrion's story.

[Beric175]

I took Tyrion's reaction as misogynistic either way in the show because he kills Shae without even considering that she might have been forced to testify against him and seeing her be a prostitute in Tywin's bed is no excuse because what else was she going to do after she lost all of her monetary security in a land she wasn't born in without anyone else caring one bit about her? At least she has an excuse for grabbing the knife because at the end of the trial he was already wishing death on everyone so she has no reason to expect that she's an exception. In the books Tyrion didn't care enough about Tysha to kill his father when he thought she was a prostitute despite the fact that everyone raped her in front of him but suddenly because she no longer is a whore in his eyes he is outraged by what has been done? That sounds like a person who has a pretty low opinion of prostitutes and women in general and only thinks of the slight done to him. He doesn't care about Tysha as a person, not really. He only thinks of how happy he felt at that time and that includes Tysha but it's not about her in the books.

I would think that if D&D know the ending they're going to cut things out that don't amount to much and hence they have to change around certain scenes that we already know, such as the conversation between Jaime and Tyrion because they inform the characters' thoughts and maybe even actions later on but in the grad scheme of things they might not lead to a big payoff. I can only guess but if those threats never amounted to anything I would have changed it around. Those guys know where everyone will end up and so if jaime and Tyrion don't meet again in the end does it matter that Tyrion got mad at him for the purpose of the tv show? No, in fact having that reaction in there IF they never meet again would only lead to viewers expecting something to come of it and if that does not happen in the books there is no need to have it on the show. It changes the scene but it does not create some kind of expectation that might get disappointed later on. I mean taking out Tysha also dispenses with the 'where do whores go' but that's not really compelling to me and in fact a lot of Tyrion's journey in book 5 feels like it's dragging its feet or stalling.

I would say that the show has commented on misogyny before (Walder Frey and Theon) and in Theon's case they even had a situation reversal where two women were forcing themselves on him, whereas previously in every situation in which he was in the same room with women they didn't want to be with him and he was forcing his presence onto them and he even molested his own sister on the way to Pyke. Then in season 3 he was put in a situation not too different from many female characters in the books where he was threatened with rape and ultimately got sexually assaulted and so I don't think the show presented him in a positive way when he was a chauvinist but neitehr did it eroticise his own sexual torture and it wasn't fun to watch at all, that is unless you are Ramsay Snow. Of course not many were able to see that scene that way because many people would not believe that a man could be raped by a woman but that's sadly a result of stereotypes and tropes in stories about such matters. The moral point seemed to be that this was karma catching up with him but at the same time it is not a deserved punishment in any circumstance and the torture scenes were horrible enough to make that point, as they very clearly showed the helplessness of the victim. In that sense it was a commentary on sexual violence in general, which is why I don't believe that the show is misogynist.

As for sexual equality and misogyny going forward I think having scenes with Tyrion verbally and/or physically abusing prostitutes is not going to look good, given the outrage after the botched Cersei/Jaime scene and I don't know that you can't have Tyrion feeling sorry for himself without those scenes. On the other hand that would be a good opportunity to call out misogynists because when everyone else reacts badly to the favourite character on the show being nasty to women that is a good way to comment on sexual violence against women and how people will rationalize it because it's people they like otherwise doing this horrible stuff. I guess we'll just have to wait and see where they are going with it. I think the 'whitewashing' might have been a function of the audience needing someone to root for on some level because I've seen people make the argument that they can't care about the story because they can't relate to anyone and to some degree I think that has some validity because lets face it not everyone is a selfish asshole in real life and people are naturally going to ask why none of the non-assholes are important characters on the show? It makes sense that the character who is mocked for being a dwarf and whose plight we empathise with should not necessarily turn out to be just as horrible as everyone else.

[Annara Snow]

I took Tyrion's reaction as misogynistic either way in the show because he kills Shae without even considering that she might have been forced to testify against him and seeing her be a prostitute in Tywin's bed is no excuse because what else was she going to do after she lost all of her monetary security in a land she wasn't born in without anyone else caring one bit about her? At least she has an excuse for grabbing the knife because at the end of the trial he was already wishing death on everyone so she has no reason to expect that she's an exception. In the books Tyrion didn't care enough about Tysha to kill his father when he thought she was a prostitute despite the fact that everyone raped her in front of him but suddenly because she no longer is a whore in his eyes he is outraged by what has been done? That sounds like a person who has a pretty low opinion of prostitutes and women in general and only thinks of the slight done to him. He doesn't care about Tysha as a person, not really. He only thinks of how happy he felt at that time and that includes Tysha but it's not about her in the books.

I would think that if D&D know the ending they're going to cut things out that don't amount to much and hence they have to change around certain scenes that we already know, such as the conversation between Jaime and Tyrion because they inform the characters' thoughts and maybe even actions later on but in the grad scheme of things they might not lead to a big payoff. I can only guess but if those threats never amounted to anything I would have changed it around. Those guys know where everyone will end up and so if jaime and Tyrion don't meet again in the end does it matter that Tyrion got mad at him for the purpose of the tv show? No, in fact having that reaction in there IF they never meet again would only lead to viewers expecting something to come of it and if that does not happen in the books there is no need to have it on the show. It changes the scene but it does not create some kind of expectation that might get disappointed later on. I mean taking out Tysha also dispenses with the 'where do whores go' but that's not really compelling to me and in fact a lot of Tyrion's journey in book 5 feels like it's dragging its feet or stalling.

And in the show he never kills Tywin or does anything about Tywin ordering Tysha's rape, and are we supposed to think that this was OK because she was a prostitute? How does that make things any better?

My point was that I don't see how removing Tysha would supposedly make Tyrion less misogynistic.

As for sexual equality and misogyny going forward I think having scenes with Tyrion verbally and/or physically abusing prostitutes is not going to look good, given the outrage after the botched Cersei/Jaime scene and I don't know that you can't have Tyrion feeling sorry for himself without those scenes. On the other hand that would be a good opportunity to call out misogynists because when everyone else reacts badly to the favourite character on the show being nasty to women that is a good way to comment on sexual violence against women and how people will rationalize it because it's people they like otherwise doing this horrible stuff. I guess we'll just have to wait and see where they are going with it. I think the 'whitewashing' might have been a function of the audience needing someone to root for on some level because I've seen people make the argument that they can't care about the story because they can't relate to anyone and to some degree I think that has some validity because lets face it not everyone is a selfish asshole in real life and people are naturally going to ask why none of the non-assholes are important characters on the show? It makes sense that the character who is mocked for being a dwarf and whose plight we empathise with should not necessarily turn out to be just as horrible as everyone else.

Personally, I think this argument, which I've seen brought up a lot, is utter bullshit. For starters, there are good people to root for in the show and in the books, like Jon, Samwell, Davos, Bran, Brienne, or Sansa for that matter... though the show seems intent to make Brienne less nice than she is in the books, for whatever reason, and more of a seasoned killer who verbally bullies her teenage squire/sidekick, and at the moment, everyone apparently wants to believe that Sansa is evil, even though she's done nothing evil so far, because that would make her "cooler", apparently. So what's up with that?

Secondly, it's not 1950. There are lots of shows with morally ambiguous or even villainous protagonists on TV, and people find them interesting and compelling, and even root for protagonists who are far worse than Tyrion, like Tony Soprano, Walter White, etc. And in GoT and ASOAIF itself, lots of people root for morally ambiguous characters. Show viewers still root for Arya just as much as the book readers do, even after the show has finally allowed her to become as dark as she has been in the book since ACOK. Many people who read the books love the much greyer book Tyrion, or Jaime (who the show has inexplicably been making look worse than he is), or Stannis or Dany (for everyone who hates one of those characters, there is one or two who love them). Hell, some people even love total bastards like Tywin or Littlefinger.

[Beric175]

I actually hope that the removal of Tysha did not make Tyrion less misogynistic in the viewers eyes because I have heard that accusation being thrown around agaist the show. That somehow him killing Shae without the drive of the reveal takes away his drive to right the wrong that was done to a woman he loved...but then I thought that in the books he did kill his father largely for selfish reasons and I don't think killing his father solves any of these things either in the book or the show. he should have been enraged the moment his father made him watch Tysha being raped. Instead, he complies with Tywin's wishes and shuts up when that would have been THE time to speak up and protest. I think the fact that he does not do anything about Tysha when in the show she is a prostitute until the show tells us anything else is just as bad but I guess the viewers have rationalized him not doing aything about it in the sense that he had no power to do anything about it but yes in the abstract you are right. If he was going to kill his father for the injustice done to a woman it would have been in that moment but then again maybe that's the show's substitution for his later misogyny and people just didn't consider it that way.

As for the other good characters, Davos just has not enough screentime and your investment in Jon dépends on whether or not you find the typical stern/slf-pitying hero interesting or not. I personally like Jon Snow on the show but I have heard a lot of people moan each time a scene with the Wall comes up because many people sem to be watching th show despite the fantasy elements and they are much more interested in the political intrigue and tough moral choices than they are in the magical elements and the Wall and NW are definitely closer to the latter aspect. So as much as I'd like to say that with LOTR, Pan's Labyrinth and Co we have had a more mainstream interest for fantasy, a lot of people are not interested in the genre aspects of it. I also like Sophie Turner's sansa because she is a character that does not go one way constantly like Arya goes constantly darker. sansa on the show has sort of been both naive and savy in turns and that put off some of the readers who expected her to be more mature by this point but I don't think she's evil at this stage but yeah because she mostly reacts to events around her over which she mostly has no control and because her want is just survival some might not find her an interesting character on the show. I think many viewers prefer Arya because apparently killing=badass and because apparently she's the Westerosi batman but actually I'd say that makes arya a lot weaker psychologically and a lot more. Sansa has been through some tough times in the books and the show and she has not really allowed herself to compromise her moral integrity to the point where she becomes numb to human suffering. I just know that a lot of readers and viewers dislike Sansa because in season 1 she was somewhat arrogant and naive. She does not fight, she does not kill but that might be why some viewers don't like her despite her being well-intentioned. It says a lot about viewer expectations but that's the only way I can explain it.

[PatrickStormborn]

I actually hope that the removal of Tysha did not make Tyrion less misogynistic in the viewers eyes because I have heard that accusation being thrown around agaist the show. That somehow him killing Shae without the drive of the reveal takes away his drive to right the wrong that was done to a woman he loved...but then I thought that in the books he did kill his father largely for selfish reasons and I don't think killing his father solves any of these things either in the book or the show. he should have been enraged the moment his father made him watch Tysha being raped. Instead, he complies with Tywin's wishes and shuts up when that would have been THE time to speak up and protest. I think the fact that he does not do anything about Tysha when in the show she is a prostitute until the show tells us anything else is just as bad but I guess the viewers have rationalized him not doing aything about it in the sense that he had no power to do anything about it but yes in the abstract you are right. If he was going to kill his father for the injustice done to a woman it would have been in that moment but then again maybe that's the show's substitution for his later misogyny and people just didn't consider it that way.

Tyrion was 13 years old, disabled, and completely abused by his father, who then sexually abused him by ordering his involvement in Tysha's rape. There was absolutely no believable way he could "speak up and protest".

And remember that Tyrion probably never actually intended to kill Tywin (which is why the show's version is so contrived) - he went to confront him about Tysha and find out where she was/what happened to her. It's a mixture of seeing Shae in Tywin's bed, Tywin continuing to call Tysha a "whore", and Tyrion's own inferiority complex (created by Tywin) that drives him to kill him.

[And Stannis Laughed]

The revelation that Tysha genuinely loved Tyrion does more than lend him an obsessive mantra. It exposes that Tyrion's empathy for 'cripples, bastards, and broken things' is rooted in nothing more than the fact he sees his own reflection in them. Once Tysha is no longer a whore, Tyrion loses all empathy for them, resulting in some truly painful--but vital--scenes in ADWD.

[GoldHandTheGood]

Tyrion was 13 years old, disabled, and completely abused by his father, who then sexually abused him by ordering his involvement in Tysha's rape. There was absolutely no believable way he could "speak up and protest".

And remember that Tyrion probably never actually intended to kill Tywin (which is why the show's version is so contrived) - he went to confront him about Tysha and find out where she was/what happened to her. It's a mixture of seeing Shae in Tywin's bed, Tywin continuing to call Tysha a "whore", and Tyrion's own inferiority complex (created by Tywin) that drives him to kill him.

:agree:

[sj4iy]

And remember that Tyrion probably never actually intended to kill Tywin (which is why the show's version is so contrived) - he went to confront him about Tysha and find out where she was/what happened to her. It's a mixture of seeing Shae in Tywin's bed, Tywin continuing to call Tysha a "whore", and Tyrion's own inferiority complex (created by Tywin) that drives him to kill him.

As opposed to the book version, in which he still has no plan for what to do when he gets there, and is as equally contrived since he could have simply left as planned. In both versions, he didn't have a plan for what he was going to do when he reached Tywin, and he certainly wasn't plotting murder on his way there. It wasn't until he saw Shae in Tywin's bed that he finally resolved to kill Tywin, in both versions.

The show didn't screw anything up...Tyrion going to Tywin for Tywin sentencing him to death after years of torture makes just as much sense as Tyrion going to Tywin over what he did to his first wife 30 years prior. In both cases, it's still a stupid plan because escaping is the smart course of action to take.

[PatrickStormborn]

As opposed to the book version, in which he still has no plan for what to do when he gets there, and is as equally contrived since he could have simply left as planned. In both versions, he didn't have a plan for what he was going to do when he reached Tywin, and he certainly wasn't plotting murder on his way there. It wasn't until he saw Shae in Tywin's bed that he finally resolved to kill Tywin, in both versions.

The show didn't screw anything up...Tyrion going to Tywin for Tywin sentencing him to death after years of torture makes just as much sense as Tyrion going to Tywin over what he did to his first wife 30 years prior. In both cases, it's still a stupid plan because escaping is the smart course of action to take.

In the books, Tyrion has just found out he paticipated in the gang rape of the only woman who ever loved him. Not only does he have to face his guilt over what happened, but he now feels even more guilty. He's also completely alienated from the only family member he truly cared about; Jaime lied to Tyrion out of a belief that no woman would ever truly love him - or at least that's how Tyrion would interpret it. It's a seriously complicated situation. After this revelation, Tyrion doesn't care about escaping or living - he just needs to know what happened to Tysha. That's why he goes to confront Tywin.

In the show, there's no previously established canon of Tyrion knowing how to navigate the tunnels of the Red Keep, nor is there sufficient motivation without the truth about Tysha or Jaime's involvement.

Where are you getting "30 years" from?? Tyrion isn't even 30 in ASoS, and he was 13 when he married Tysha. And going to confront Tywin because he wants to know what happened to his wife is far more compelling than doing it because of his own abuse - it adds so much richness to his character. Tyrion put up with the abuse all his life, but then he learns that someone truly loved him, and his father punished them both.

But anyway, I never said the show "screw[ed] anything up" - I said the scene was more contrived on the show, because it isn't a logical culmination of events for Tyrion to be freed by Jaime and then confront Tywin, and that is reflected by the fact that their whole confrontation basically centres around Shae, whom Tyrion had no idea would even be there.

[AdmiralKyrd]

It's still a stupid plan because escaping is the smart course of action to take.

I wonder how Tywin being in power instead of Cersei would have affected the ransom for Tyrion. Tywin probably would have thought Tyrion's escape and exile was a winning, almost perfect situation for him from his POV and wouldn't have cared at all to hunt him down.

[sj4iy]

In the books, Tyrion has just found out he paticipated in the gang rape of the only woman who ever loved him. Not only does he have to face his guilt over what happened, but he now feels even more guilty. He's also completely alienated from the only family member he truly cared about; Jaime lied to Tyrion out of a belief that no woman would ever truly love him - or at least that's how Tyrion would interpret it. It's a seriously complicated situation. After this revelation, Tyrion doesn't care about escaping or living - he just needs to know what happened to Tysha. That's why he goes to confront Tywin.

In the show, there's no previously established canon of Tyrion knowing how to navigate the tunnels of the Red Keep, nor is there sufficient motivation without the truth about Tysha or Jaime's involvement.

Where are you getting "30 years" from?? Tyrion isn't even 30 in ASoS, and he was 13 when he married Tysha. And going to confront Tywin because he wants to know what happened to his wife is far more compelling than doing it because of his own abuse - it adds so much richness to his character. Tyrion put up with the abuse all his life, but then he learns that someone truly loved him, and his father punished them both.

But anyway, I never said the show "screw[ed] anything up" - I said the scene was more contrived on the show, because it isn't a logical culmination of events for Tyrion to be freed by Jaime and then confront Tywin, and that is reflected by the fact that their whole confrontation basically centres around Shae, whom Tyrion had no idea would even be there.

My mistake on the age. It's still been a very long time, though.

My point is that it is as equally contrived in the show as the book because Tyrion should simply leave and he doesn't. He has compelling reasons both times to confront his father, but it's still idiotic. If Tywin had actually been in there, what would Tyrion have done? Been recaptures and executed, no matter his reason for going in there. He doesn't have a weapon, he doesn't have a plan. He's running on emotion, but that doesn't make it less contrived in either media.

[Annara Snow]

My mistake on the age. It's still been a very long time, though.

My point is that it is as equally contrived in the show as the book because Tyrion should simply leave and he doesn't. He has compelling reasons both times to confront his father, but it's still idiotic. If Tywin had actually been in there, what would Tyrion have done? Been recaptures and executed, no matter his reason for going in there. He doesn't have a weapon, he doesn't have a plan. He's running on emotion, but that doesn't make it less contrived in either media.

The situations aren't remotely similar. Unlike book!Tyrion, show!Tyrion has not just learned anything new, anything he didn't know for years or at least for a month or two. Show!Tyrion is not shocked, agitated, furious, desperate to confront his father and learn the truth about anything. Peter Dinklage only looked somewhat curious as he climbed up there. It doesn't make sense that he is doing that; in the emotional state show!Tyrion was in, it would only make sense to feel incredibly lucky for getting the get out of jail free card from his brother, and to get the fuck away ASAP. What was he going to do, talk to Tywin and ask him not to tell anyone that he's just escaped? It makes sense in the book that Tyrion would act so desperately and recklessly because of the emotional state he was in; in the show, not really.

[sj4iy]

The situations aren't remotely similar. Unlike book!Tyrion, show!Tyrion has not just learned anything new, anything he didn't know for years or at least for a month or two. Show!Tyrion is not shocked, agitated, furious, desperate to confront his father and learn the truth about anything. Peter Dinklage only looked somewhat curious as he climbed up there. It doesn't make sense that he is doing that; in the emotional state show!Tyrion was in, it would only make sense to feel incredibly lucky for getting the get out of jail free card from his brother, and to get the fuck away ASAP. What was he going to do, talk to Tywin and ask him not to tell anyone that he's just escaped? It makes sense in the book that Tyrion would act so desperately and recklessly because of the emotional state he was in; in the show, not really.

We could argue emotional states all day. My point is the same...both times it's a stupid plan and makes little sense from Tyrion's standpoint. No matter how angry he is, it still makes absolutely no sense that he would go to his father's bedchamber with no weapon and no plan. Even in the books, what was he going to do? A reader has no more understanding of Tyrion's purpose in going to Tywin's room than a show watcher has.

[Annara Snow]

We could argue emotional states all day. My point is the same...both times it's a stupid plan and makes little sense from Tyrion's standpoint. No matter how angry he is, it still makes absolutely no sense that he would go to his father's bedchamber with no weapon and no plan. Even in the books, what was he going to do? A reader has no more understanding of Tyrion's purpose in going to Tywin's room than a show watcher has.

My point is that in the books it makes sense as a story, because Tyrion's motivations for acting like that are convincing enough. In the show, not so much.

[sj4iy]

My point is that in the books it makes sense as a story, because Tyrion's motivations for acting like that are convincing enough. In the show, not so much.

And I disagree. I think his motivations in the show are as understandable as they are in the show, you know, since he explicitly says "You have wanted me dead my entire life"...why people refuse to consider that as a reasonable explanation just baffles me. But whatever, I'm content to disagree on it since people have made up their minds anyway.

[Annara Snow]

And I disagree. I think his motivations in the show are as understandable as they are in the show, you know, since he explicitly says "You have wanted me dead my entire life"...why people refuse to consider that as a reasonable explanation just baffles me. But whatever, I'm content to disagree on it since people have made up their minds anyway.

I've already explained: that's nothing he didn't know before. It's not like he was in a state of shock and anger because he'd just found that out. Why would it make him suddenly go and look for Tywin, instead of trying to escape?

[sj4iy]

I've already explained: that's nothing he didn't know before. It's not like he was in a state of shock and anger because he'd just found that out. Why would it make him suddenly go and look for Tywin, instead of trying to escape?

...because he had just rotted in a dungeon cell for god knows how long brooding on his impending execution? I mean, your father setting up a fake trial to get rid of you for good and even having your former lover testify against you in front of everyone is a bit different from said father simply saying hateful things to you all throughout your life, wouldn't you say?

Again, I'm not exepecting anyone to change their minds on this, it's pretty obvious that people liked the Tysha bit from the books and weren't happy that it got changed, so it's not like I am going to convince anyone on anything. I simply wanted to point out that Tyrion's 'plan' was equally contrived and equally idiotic in both the show and the book.