How would you rate episode 403?

[Konradsmith]

Queen of Whores, in some places incest is the more taboo offense. And in most cases incest isn't consensual, a la Craster. But really I shouldn't keep up this line of conversation because I want us to get talking about Oathkeeper's promo. Of course that would require that the mods approve of the Oathkeeper threads that are pending...

[BuggerThemAll]

I rate it a 6. The Cersei/Jaime scene made me very uncomfortable, and screwed up the idea that Jamie is on a path to redemption.

I enjoyed that the writers tried to include a little more backstory and lore. Ex: Tommen and Tywin's talk.

Podrick and Tyrion parting ways broke my heart. And, unlike many others, I enjoyed the interaction between Sam and Gilly.

Littlefinger laid on the villain voice a little too hard. And, as much as I love the Hound, I think the writers messed up by having him be the bad guy again so soon after mentioning he has -a code-.

Very happy with Dany and Daario.

[Konradsmith]

Its not as though they forgot that the Hound said he had a code. The only reason the Hound said he wasn't a thief was to set up him being a thief later on, otherwise that would have been a pointless aside. D and D wrote eps. one and three so that "inconsistency" (as many have called it) was purposeful. I don't know why they chose to have him say one thing and then do another, but it wasn't accidental or forgetful on their part. That line was clearly meant to set up this episode's scene.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Konradsmith

[Mr Fixit]

Its not as though they forgot that the Hound said he had a code. The only reason the Hound said he wasn't a thief was to set up him being a thief later on, otherwise that would have been a pointless aside. D and D wrote eps. one and three so that "inconsistency" (as many have called it) was purposeful. I don't know why they chose to have him say one thing and then do another, but it wasn't accidental or forgetful on their part. That line was clearly meant to set up this episode's scene.

The guy was being flippant and facetious. Arya put him on the spot there and he dismissed her with a funny retort. While I believe that Hound does have a code, stealing from gullible peasants doesn't strike me as something he's opposed to on principle. He stole in the books as well. Remember the ferrymen incident?

Edited April 23, 2014 by Mr Fixit

[Konradsmith]

Though admittedly, as people said on the "Two Swords" thread, he doesn't have gold in show canon because the BWB pilfered his shit not because of his lack of foresight when he left KL. So really he could've just said "those outlaws you loved so much robbed from me" and that would have shut her up. I don't think it was OOC for him to rob that poor fellow though and it prompted him to give Arya a nice (albeit cynical) lesson.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Konradsmith

[Count Balerion]

I gave it a 7, although Tywin and Daenerys almost raised it to an 8, and there were some good references to earlier seasons in the Sansa and Cersei scenes (that alliterates). The QOT also didn't disappoint. And the Pod farewell, quite touching.

Mainly Charles Dance raises the bar in practically every scene he's in, although

Tywin seems so much more sympathetic than in the books that it'll be rather sad when he gets offed. And I'm afraid we won't be getting Ser Pounce and the gang.

The principal reason I gave a star to the Daenerys scene was the Valyrian speech. And I'm now wondering if the Unsullied's training included voice lessons.

Not too sure about the Arya/Hound scene, though it does give the perspective of the ordinary people, which is a pretty important theme in the books. Even less sure about the wildling raid, which shows us that that cannibal guy is icky, which we already knew. Of course it segues into the Night's Watch, but I'm not sure it was needed. Good to see more of Aemon.

Too much sex, of course, and of not terribly good quality; but that comes with the territory and is true of the books as well.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Count Balerion

[boojam]

Since episode 1 Season 1 I have used the following criterion in grading an episode.

These two things are fixed:

1) Production value, costumes, sets and VFX work - +3 points.

(I really did not know how good the VFX were for the first season until I saw that 'behind the scenes' making off.)

2) The actors. 95% are so good (a couple are uneven but I give them a by because they come through now and then). - +3

So I give an automatic 6 points right up front.

3) Direction and cinematography ... 2 points this can go as +1 or -1. Never seen a case of -2 but +2 is common.

(Direction is closely tied to the teleplay so that takes some thinking In the general cinematography has been out standing.)

4)Writing and episode composition. +1,-1, or a +2 or -2.

This is difficult since sometimes awkward dialog seems to have slipped through a lot of competent hands.

Being a fan of visual narrative drama I cut slack for this show, since I have read the novels too, and consider them very very difficult to translate to a 10 episode format.

Not a purist so sort that of thing does not bother me, doing the Talisa thing was both to add some poignancy and some expedience (people going to sit around for years wondering where Oona Chaplin was?)

(Only thing I did not really like was the unexplained Asha - Osha weirdness , maybe it's out there but I have never heard Dave and Dan address it.)

Other changes and condensations have been ok with me.

If the show were not so well acted and the production values so high I would probably grade harder on the episode compositions, there are excellent segues but things jump around like a room full of cats in a lightning storm!

I am used to it now.

Edited April 23, 2014 by boojam

[Er Rn]

I gave it a 6.

Positives:

Tywin and Tommen

Jon Snow

Stannis and Davos, Davos and Shireen

Arya and the Hound

Wildling raiders

Negatives:

Jaime and Cersei

Oberyn's orgy

Littlefinger's accent

I'm kinda neutral on the Dany scene. I liked her speech in Valyrian but I don't understand hurling the barrels of the former slaves' collars. I get the idea behind it, but it seems likely to me they could've crashed into the slaves standing there, causing more harm than good.

[Petyr Patter]

So, I just rewatched this episode. In another post I called it the "DARKEST" episode of Game of Thrones to date: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/107940-book-spoilers-ep403-discussion/page-36#entry5683224 .

Now, having watched this episode twice, I don't think I will ever watch it again. The only other episode I feel that way about is the Rains of Castamere, and even then just the Red Wedding itself. This episode is just unpleasant from start to finish. Even the scene I did find pleasant, Davos dealing with Shireen's bossy questions, was literally dark. We get it, Dragonstone is a creepy place. Still, how about a conversation in the sun once in a while? You are Baratheons, not vampires.

Which is not to say the episode was bad, but I feel like it was bad. While sometimes the unpleasantness showcased a coming threat, such as the wildlings, or sometimes unpleasantness is what the hero must endure to triumph. Here, it mostly was just showing a crappy world that no one was trying to make better. This is not why I watch television.

And the rape was just ten times more sickening the second time around.

5/10

[Ran]

549 votes in, 6.97 average, 8 median, 7.08 normalized average.

[DolorousKim]

I rated it a 7, which to me is a good rating, indicative of a solidly entertaining episode which had far more elements to recommend it than condemn it, but still not being an especially brilliant episode representative of all the best features of what this series can deliver. I can't understand the "one" ratings for this episode any more than I can understand the "ten" ratings, but to each his/her own...

What really worked for me:

• Tywin - Tommen scene - I loved everything about this scene from the way that it was filmed, to the content of the dialog, to the actors' body language and facial expressions (including the "background" characters -- Lena Headey killed it without having to say a word). Grandpa delivering a not so subtle smackdown of Joffrey's reign in the presence of his corpse while swiftly taking the heir apparent in hand was masterful from start to finish to my mind.
  
• Tyrion - Pod scene - I found this scene to be ridiculously touching while still managing to deliver some key exposition as to the way things currently stand for Tyrion. The quiet dignity that Peter Dinklage imbued Tyrion with despite his condition and surroundings was a thing of beauty, and this leave-taking was handled better than the way things played out in the book in my opinion.
  
• Arya - Hound dinner scene - some great funny stuff here! Maisie and Rory have wonderful chemistry, and I really enjoy every interaction between their two characters. While not really "liking" each other, it's clear that they have a large amount of grudging respect for each other and it's a joy to see.
  
• Tywin - Oberyn scene - Such great menace and crackling animosity delivered in such a wonderfully understated way. I love watching these two powerful predators stalking each other. Leaving the acceptance (or not) of handshake offer ambiguous at the scene's end was brilliant.
  

What didn't work for me:

• Cersei - Jaime sept scene - I'm no book purist, but why on earth change this scene to introduce the element of non- or dubious at best consent? Isn't the fact that the relationship between these two is so freakishly dysfunctional that they are willing to indulge in consensual sex in the realm's most holy location in the presence of their dead son's corpse powerful enough? Really bad decision on someone's part to add the consent question here (or really poor execution if it was meant to be consensual). This scene as filmed undermines the fact that Cersei and Jaime are both victims as well as perpetrators in the severely twisted relationship that they share.
  
• Thenn cannibalism - This element being present once again in an otherwise successfully executed battle scene brought the whole segment down. The systematic wiping out of the population of a peaceful village was already brutal enough, why push things to a sickening extreme by shoving in the cannibalism? Way too over the top for me. Are the Thenns supposed to be hardened, disciplined soldiers or some escapees from The Walking Dead?
  

[The Killer Snark]

Someone else mentioned Littlefinger's accent. That was bugging me a bit as well. I know he's actually Irish, but Aidan Gillen's accent was never as broad as that in previous seasons. I wonder if he's a method-style actor, and the part he plays in Calvary was to blame. "Top of the mornin' to ye, me lady Sansa, it's a terrible thing the lad Joffrey dyin', i'tis, i'tis, but you be comin' with me now, they'll be arter ye and no mistake."

Edited April 24, 2014 by The Killer Snark

[King of the Road]

I'm not certain on which points you and I are in disagreement. You said yourself it's not the worst episode of the series. I said the same.

As for internet faux-outrage, well, it is. Do you think mainstream media care one bit about Jaime's character arc and the supposed damage to it? Do you think they protest because Jaime raping Cersei means the show condones rape, glamorizes and romanticizes it? That this, after all the shit that has happened on the show, is somehow the most morally reprehensible act we've ween? No. They jumped on the bandwagon because they saw the potential for clickbait. Just look at the dates of the published online material. The media outlets had these episodes for weeks in advance. Almost no one made a big fuss over the scene. Actually, many respectable critics noted the interesting deviation from the books and expressed interest in how it will turn out. Then the net explodes in outrage and suddenly everyone publishes articles on inappropriateness of the scene. So, yeah, where media and the internet culture are concerned, it's faux-outrage, an opportunity to stand on a soapbox and show just how progressive they all are. Then they can pat each other on the back and say mission accomplished.

Your comments are always a joy to read, voice of reason.

[boojam]

549 votes in, 6.97 average, 8 median, 7.08 normalized average.

COMPARISONS

I think this says more about those who post on this forum than about an episode.

(Which colors how to say anything about small number statistics.)

I already mentioned ROTTEN TOMATOES where this episode got a 9.5.

(Talk about small number statics. However if I knew how to weight the ratings because each vote here contains an analysis, which , with a few exceptions is mostly just a statement of opinion here. Is Ran's rating included in whole sample? It that two people who rate it? I 'rate' you (youalls?) rating much higher because you (youall) give such a fine detailed analysis, the best on the site, maybe the best on the net.)

IMDB

I did not know IMDB lets the episodes be rated! (...and I am a member of IMDB!)*

So if one looks here:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0944947/eprate?ref_=ttep_ql_3

all episodes will get rated.

Notice S4/E3 gets a 9.0 with 3335 votes out of ~6 million (note USA) viewers.

Still small number statistics, but higher than 549.(We seem to have an international group here, but so does IMDB.)

I know, I know, some ringers and trolls over there on IMDB...

alas I think we have them here too.

I guess the only semi-objective measure is the ~6 million ready to put down their clams (I don't care if there are HBO GO Pass Word stealer's or not).

Have to see what next weeks numbers are.

*Here is an interesting thing.

Over at IMDB they have a per-show BEST EPISODE list:

http://www.imdb.com/list/ls009924594?ref_=tt_rls_1

Top of the list S3E4

And Now His Watch Is Ended

That would be mine too!

Edited April 24, 2014 by boojam

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

*Here is an interesting thing.

Over at IMDB they have a per-show BEST EPISODE list:

http://www.imdb.com/list/ls009924594?ref_=tt_rls_1

Top of the list S3E4

And Now His Watch Is Ended

That would be mine too!

Top of the list is "And Now His Watch Has Ended" with 9.5/10

Position 25 is "The Rains of Castamere" with 9.9/10

The list appears to be in some random order, not by score ranking.

[boojam]

Top of the list is "And Now His Watch Has Ended" with 9.5/10

Position 25 is "The Rains of Castamere" with 9.9/10

The list appears to be in some random order, not by score ranking.

Yeah that's because it got a 10 , but I don't know where that 10 came from!

Anyway on the User Rating poll The Rains of Castamere is number 1 because that table is ranked by number of votes and S3E10 got 21,919 votes.

Calls into question any kind of ranking system for art!

Usually only time is the best judge.

Ahh... it does say , at the top, in random order.

Edited April 24, 2014 by boojam

[Ran]

I don't really understand why the obvious point that the poll of the forum is the poll of the forum, and a poll on IMDB is a poll on IMDB.

What am I missing?

[boojam]

I don't really understand why the obvious point that the poll of the forum is the poll of the forum, and a poll on IMDB is a poll on IMDB.

What am I missing?

Poll comparisons are a bee in my bonnet.

No good reason.

[Mr Fixit]

Polls are fun though of limited value. People seem overly swayed by strong last scenes or shock factor. Silent episodes almost always get a lower score than they deserve.

[Rashtibram]

I thought this episode was the weakest of the season so far, but that isn't saying much considering how much I loved the last two. Ultimately, I thought it was very solid, with pitch-perfect pacing and more than a few scenes worthy of individual praise. There wasn't really anything that elevated it into "seven" territory though, and in the end it wasn't an extraordinarily memorable hour of TV, which can count as a legitimate negative in a show usually so jam-packed full of memorable events.

6/10

'Breaker of Chains' falls 25th out of 33 on my best-to-worst ranking of all Game of Thrones episode to date.