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How would you rate episode 403?

How would you rate episode 403?  

628 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      14
    • 2
      10
    • 3
      15
    • 4
      29
    • 5
      57
    • 6
      76
    • 7
      143
    • 8
      144
    • 9
      90
    • 10
      50


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I gave it a five. This was an episode that hyped us up for future events but won't have any actual memorable scenes once we get to the end of the season.

What do you mean by memorable? There was no action? The plot didn't really change? Because I agree that neither of those two things occurred in this episode, but since the writing was fantastic, acting solid as usual, and the scenes seamlessly went from one to the other I really enjoyed it.

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I mean that the events that precede this and the events that follow will be more memorable. The Samwell/Gilly scenes were cringe-worthy. The incest in the sept was not handled well although I do like GRRM's response to the outrage. I am also finished with Stannis pouting and doing nothing. I wouldn't rate the Tywin-Tommen interaction higher than the Tywin-Arya diologue but I like Tywin the grandfather just eviscerating Joffrey the King while Joffrey the Corpse was right there decaying. I liked the final scene with the chains but I agree with the people who don't like the new Dario. He looks just like everyone else. I know people didn't like the actor from Season three but he had a real hair metal throwback look that at least made him stand out.

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-How many Dornish pornos are needed before we get that Oberyn is a passionate bisexual man.

+1

He looks more like a perv than a cool Prince from Dorne.

Also, I wish they had included Strong Belwas in the show. But Daario worked fine for that scene. I may like thid new Daario better than the other one.

I give this episode a 7.

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I liked the final scene with the chains but I agree with the people who don't like the new Dario. He looks just like everyone else. I know people didn't like the actor from Season three but he had a real hair metal throwback look that at least made him stand out.

Yes that is the point. Daario is supposed to stand out with his ridiculous appearance in the books. Ed Skrein was able to stand out, the new Daario looks like poor man's Eric Bana with beard.

Edited by Stan the Man Baratheon

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I mean that the events that precede this and the events that follow will be more memorable. The Samwell/Gilly scenes were cringe-worthy. The incest in the sept was not handled well although I do like GRRM's response to the outrage. I am also finished with Stannis pouting and doing nothing. I wouldn't rate the Tywin-Tommen interaction higher than the Tywin-Arya diologue but I like Tywin the grandfather just eviscerating Joffrey the King while Joffrey the Corpse was right there decaying. I liked the final scene with the chains but I agree with the people who don't like the new Dario. He looks just like everyone else. I know people didn't like the actor from Season three but he had a real hair metal throwback look that at least made him stand out.

What did GRRM say? The director said it was not rape:

http://www.ibtimes.com/game-thrones-season-4-spoilers-breaker-chains-rape-scene-raises-controversy-1574209

After I read that article I made my mind up. If the director says it's not rape I think it's very irresponsible for people to keep saying it is. It's fine to say the director did a terrible job. People are just getting really heated over this scene when they think it wasn't consensual. And the purists are up in arms because now "Jamie's arc was ruined" when really it was just a directorial blunder not D&D destroying dogma.

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Yes that is the point. Daario is supposed to stand out with his ridiculous appearance in the books. Ed Skrein was able to stand out, the new Daario looks like poor man's Eric Bana with beard.

I KNEW I wasn't the only one thinking they were twins!

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Gave the episode an 8/9. the Jaime/Cersei sex scene came off quite close as I imagined it in my mind when I read it in the books. It was ambiguous as to whether it was consential. at times Cersei seemed to be fighting it at other times she seemed to be a willing participant and Jamie seemed not too concerned as to how Cersei was reacting (which is what I thought his reactions were in the book). All other scenes were good. Really do not see why people hated the Sam scenes they were sweet. Only thing that I thought was overdone was the Oberyn sex scene. We get it he is a very sexually active bisexual but really does he have to prove it in every scene he appears in?


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Gave it a 8/9. Liked the Jaime/Cersei sex scene came off like I remember reading it; ambiguous. Did not mind the Same scenes. Tyrian and Tywin scenes were excellent. The portrayal of Oberyn is getting a little bit over the top. Yes, he is an active bisexual, but does he have to prove it in every scene he appears in? LF accent is definately "stronger" then I remember it, but I liked the scene. Liked everything else, think the new Daario is a better actor but really think he would look better with blue hair.


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I gave this episode a 6 (after re-reading my episode critique, perhaps I should have given it a 7, but some of the things that bothered me about the episode, really rubbed me the wrong way). It was still better than most TV shows by a long shot, but judging it against the first two episodes of the season, this one felt the most disjointed to me. I just didn’t think it flowed as well as I wished it had.

Here’s some of what I enjoyed of the episode:

Sansa’s escape was well done, and pretty much adhered to the book version. I’m very glad to see Sansa get out of King’s Landing. I can’t wait to watch Sophie Turner’s handling of the character going forward.

The scene between Tywin and Tommen was quite good, and concisely re-established Tommen as a major character. I also thought the actor playing Tommen did a nice job.

By Thor, I love the scenes between Arya and The Hound. Some of Maisie’s facial expressions throughout the scene were priceless. And Rory McCann keeps impressing me with his surliness, snot rockets and all.

Shireen and Davos were great together, as usual.

I thought some of the best acting of the episode was brought forth by the excellent Tyrion and Pod farewell scene.

The Wilding attack in my opinion was handled with aplomb. It was well shot (no pun intended) and contrary to what some might opine, I didn’t consider it too Lord of the Rings like. Pretty much any show placed in a fantasy setting resembling our own Medieval history will bear similarities when depicting warfare.


The things I thought could have been improved in this episode:


I wasn’t feeling the Jamie forcing himself on Cersie scene. I don’t recall the book version being slanted in that direction. My wife, who out of the four of us watching, is the only non-reader of ASOIAF, really didn’t like that scene. She still holds a strong grudge against Jamie for pushing Bran out the window (which I can’t blame her for, as she doesn’t get the benefit of his POV later in the story), but she was coming around a bit to his slow redemption storyline. I think that rape scene under the dead body of their son, pretty much put her back on the I hate Jamie bandwagon.

I like Sam and Gilly, but I too thought the Sam and Gilly scenes could have been tighter. They just dragged, and brought the whole of the episode down a peg.

I’ve accepted the fact that we’re more than likely not going to get the character of Strong Belwas, but I was still hoping for a more spectacular fight between the Champion of Meereen and Daario. I don’t think the whole Raiders of the Lost Ark like simplicity with which Daario took down The Champion of Meereen endeared new Daario to the fans like a well fought duel would have, but that is just my opinion.

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Gave it a solid 8.Enough good scenes to out weigh the not so good ones.The production values remain outstanding.



On the Cersei/Jaime scene,I think Cersei was protesting about where they were "doing it" more than anything else,-repeating "Its not right".Much as I love the books,I didn't like this scene there either.



No one's complaining about Cersei requiring Jaime to kill Tyrion, I note.

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I give a solid 6. And think that is a good thing. This was a completely a set up ep (which GoT has not done much of), and it really needed it to be one. There are many turns in most of the story lines, going forward, and they did a solid job of setting things up. They also did not try to go too big w/ this ep, and that too is a good thing.



Sansa/LF, Arya/ the Hound, Tommen/Tywin, Tyrion/ Pod, men of NW, Dany and Wilding were all well done, (even w/ the messed up Thenn). Each storyline did what it was needed to do and did not try to over reach.



Sam/ Gilly was a bit too much, too soon, and took more time then it needed at this point.



I still hate all of the Dragonstone storylines. They should have already happened last season, and doing them now just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Davos did what he needed to do in ep 1, and they could skip this, and do other things that need more air time.



I am on the fence w/ the Cersei/Jaime. It might be the most brilliant thing they have done, but it just feels wrong. The have in short order flip-flopped them. It makes some sense, as show Jaime has not learned all that book Jaime did before this scene. They have had the riff between them, and it has been growing, but is the moment between them. I think they can now move forward in the story, w/o having to change anything they have already set up. It might cause some problems in a few season, but nothing anytime soon.

Edited by Black Wolf Smith

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435 votes in, 7.06 average, 7 median, 7.18 normalized average.

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Gave it a solid 8.Enough good scenes to out weigh the not so good ones.The production values remain outstanding.

On the Cersei/Jaime scene,I think Cersei was protesting about where they were "doing it" more than anything else,-repeating "Its not right".Much as I love the books,I didn't like this scene there either.

No one's complaining about Cersei requiring Jaime to kill Tyrion, I note.

I won't complain - because it's really clear that Cersei's in grief and desparation. Of course she accuses her valonqar once again because she holds him responsible for The Joff's death.

And she wants Jaime to do it - not as her twin but as a member/LC of the King's Guard.

But we can certainly discuss this elsewhere I suppose. :cheers:

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I don't want to stir the waters, really, on the consensual or not thing re: Cersei and Jaime, but I need to excuse myself. On the thread I saw about this subject, I immediately thought the OP was making a reference to something that happened in the novels, so I immediately voted with just the word 'No'. On this board before, I've heard people opine with such nuggets as 'Ygritte raped Jon' and 'Lysa raped Petyr.' In these PC days of dangerous collectivist and bureacratic over-authority, people's definitions of many words have ludicrously broadened or altered, and among the most dangerous of those broadenings from a gender-relation point of view is to the word 'rape.' So I thought, "Here we go again", and just stuck a 'No' down to the OP's question. Then I watched the episode and saw where they were coming from, because there isn't really any getting away from the fact the sex is forced and not wholly consensual, so Jaime effectively does commit rape, or at least it's hair-length borderline. There's no indication anywhere that their sex lives have ever been based on such domination long before.



So, the questions are...was it really necessary to portray it, and was it a 'character assassination', to use the board cliche, and should it hinder my full marks to the episode? My answer is that I think the writers and director did the best they could with some problematic alterations to the context of the characters which have been long running in previous episodes. I'll explain:



1. Jaime's story arc has been rushed through since the third season. He's reached King's Landing too early, and went through a character redemption arc too soon. Even in the novels, the speed of his moral about-face takes a little suspension of disbelief to get used to. In the show it takes a bit more, for the reason that I've mentioned, so they had to show that in certain psychic areas he's still fundamentally conflicted and flawed,



2. Cersei has for a while now been treated over-sympathetically. In the novels, of course, the distance between Cersei and Jaime is drawn further with Jaime's refusal to commit further incest as soon as he starts taking his Kingsguard vows more seriously. Not so in earlier episodes, so they had to do their best leading on from debatable earlier decisions and draw the wedge between them another way. Since she's more victimised against and more sane than she is in the novels, they have to give her some pretext for her imminent ' batshit evil Cersei' psychological collapse. It's not the route I would have taken with either character, but what happened in the episode was in keeping with the context of the show.



Apologies if I'm retreading old ground that other folk have trod too much already. I'm simply justifying why, with my customary nits against series changes to plotting and context, I'm not worried about this role reversal in the series. I'm actually more pissed off at the hamfisted way the prior episodes have sympathised Shae.

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7/10

1. Sex scene with Oberyn was too long

2. I loved the Thenns scene, but it was too, "Lord of the Ringish" and doesn't fit into ASOIAF/GOT

3. The Duel scene was great . . . but I miss Strong Belwas . . .

4. Everything else was solid, except for Sam sending Gilly to a filthy brothel to raise a kid. Dumb Sam!

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7/10

1. Sex scene with Oberyn was too long

2. I loved the Thenns scene, but it was too, "Lord of the Ringish" and doesn't fit into ASOIAF/GOT

3. The Duel scene was great . . . but I miss Strong Belwas . . .

4. Everything else was solid, except for Sam sending Gilly to a filthy brothel to raise a kid. Dumb Sam!

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10



One of my favourite episodes in the show's run up to this point. They got everything right except the Cersei-Jaime scene. Apart from Kissed by Fire, it was the perfect set-up episode.


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For me, the only problem was the Sam and Gilly scenes. They weren't bad, and they were sensitive to the novels, but they simply dragged a little and arrived a bit too soon.


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So now Jaime is a rapist! screw that. Serious marks off for such character abuse. I see no justification for that. I can see they needed to create significant estrangement between Jaime and Cersei, but making him rape Cersei was a quick and cheap solution and simply showed a lack of creativity. Awful decision.



I didn't much like Hound steraling the silver either, but it was a slightly more understandable, and a little less character destroying way to drive Arya back to hating him.



For an otherwise reasonably episode those negatives drop the episode down to 5/10 for me. The Danny ending was a tad weak, and hardly a cliffhanger, but it moved her story forward a bit. And she does an amazing job Monologuing in High Valyrian


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The whole Jamie/Cersei rape scene really bothered me.


I just went back and reread the chapter In the books and watched that scene on HBO go.



In the book:


Cersei initiates with a kiss, and Jamie turns into a ball of lust.


Reading that chapter it is made clear:


1) Cersei wants to do this thing, but isn't giving consent initially because of where they are and fear of getting caught.


2) Before he has sex with her she literally says "quickly, do it now, do me now". Literally. At that point you have unambiguous consent.


Afterward, she chastises him "that was folly, what if we got caught".


What is not clear, is that if she hadn't swapped to "yes yes yes omg yes" - would Jamie have stopped.



On the show Jamie initiates and Cersei does kiss him. But then puts up major resistance


Just like a mother over her dead child would. We see no desire from Cersei at all.


With subtitles on you see: "no, no, no, stop, please Jamie don't" (crying)


She was actually crying as he did that to her. That kind of makes it kind of unforgivable.



His next paragraph in the book was to propose marriage, damn the world, let them be together.



This is bothersome to me because Jamie starts out as a bad guy.


You learn he does what he does for love and his sense of honor and start to like him.



I actually liked that GRRM ended up making me like a character I hated at the start.



In raping her like that they've basically taken all that character growth away from him.



Of course, the director does not think that scene was rape at the end. So.... Yeah.


Maybe the director sees the two versions of the scenes as the same. That's disturbing.



Anyhow.



Tywin was awesome, as usual. Especially with Tommen.



I agree with others, the Sam scenes were somewhat meh.



The Dany scene at the end was rather awesome, that bumped it past a 6 for me. I give it a 7.


I liked the guy holding up the collar, you knew what was coming next.


Edited by growflet

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