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Ran

How would you rate episode 403?

How would you rate episode 403?  

628 members have voted

  1. 1. What's your rating from 1-10, with 10 being the highest/best

    • 1
      14
    • 2
      10
    • 3
      15
    • 4
      29
    • 5
      57
    • 6
      76
    • 7
      143
    • 8
      144
    • 9
      90
    • 10
      50


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Ahh, very good, there is a Selection Bias in this forum.

As I mention sullied and unsullied critics-wise that Ran's ~ 7 calculation, becomes a 9.5!

We have a non-random sample of viewers here (plus some trolls).

As usual I have not seen much in-dept analysis from the voters here, people should read our esteemed board leaders analysis in the The Lion and the Rose Guide.

No, you misunderstood my meaning. I actually liked the non-cannon bit and gave 8 to the episode, but I'm trying to analyze what other people said on this thread and you have to agree the vast majority are avid book readers. So, don't put any blame on my doorstep. I'm totally neutral in this.

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Hey, but once again, the issue seems to be "it's different from the books" rather than "they ruined the show-character!".

Meeting Brienne changes Jaime, and that's apparent in the show. Does that mean he becomes a purely good character who would never do anything bad? No. Thankfully, he's still a realistic conflicted and morally ambiguous character who's trying to figure out what's right and wrong.

I can't understand how "having sex with his sister in front of their son's corpse" doesn't damage his redepmtion arc in the books, but "forcing his sister to have sex with him in front of their son's corpse" is suddenly so much worse in the show.

We are talking about a very conflicted relationship with a lot of anger, hatred, spite and narcisism, not an ideal love story.

And this doesn't mean I hate Jaime. I don't like or love characters depending on how badass or how evil they are. I like characers because they are complex and interesting.

I totally agree with you. I was just trying to analyze the public sentiment on this thread and elsewhere. I stated my own on this thread somewhere close to its beginning, No need to get jumpy.

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And, by the way, this episode has been rated lower on the forum than any episode before it. Previous record holder was the the season 2 episode "The Night Lands", at 7.07 with 398 votes in. But note the effect I noted above: at 400 votes, _this_ episode was at 7.08. So had "The Night Lands" had as many respondents to the poll as this episode has now, I expect it would be at the 7.00 mark as well.

Quite interesting, really.

An expected reaction by hardcore book fans, fueled by this crazy overblown internet faux-outrage. Does anyone really think this was the worst episode of the show? Come on. It's not even close. Just how last episodes's average was no doubt brought down considerably because of Stannis faux-outrage. Though to be honest, that episode was probably brought up by the Joff hype so maybe, when all is said and done, there we were closer to the truth.

I find the Unsullied reaction a good barometer: this Jaime thing barely registered as something inconceivable and unforgivable on their radars.

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No, you misunderstood my meaning. I actually liked the non-cannon bit and gave 8 to the episode, but I'm trying to analyze what other people said on this thread and you have to agree the vast majority are avid book readers. So, don't put any blame on my doorstep. I'm totally neutral in this.

I don't see that we have any disagreement... except that we have not way of saying there are more readers here than non-readers.

I do think we have more show-watching people who post , which I am sure is in the minority of show watchers.

I can't imagine among those ~6 million viewers more than an uncountably small percentage post here!

.0008% is a representative number?

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An expected reaction by hardcore book fans, fueled by this crazy overblown internet faux-outrage. Does anyone really think this was the worst episode of the show? Come on. It's not even close. Just how last episodes's average was no doubt brought down considerably because of Stannis faux-outrage. Though to be honest, that episode was probably brought up by the Joff hype so maybe, when all is said and done, there we were closer to the truth.

I find the Unsullied reaction a good barometer: this Jaime thing barely registered as something inconceivable and unforgivable on their radars.

You seem quick to blame supposed book purists getting whiny over changes, and yet you don't consider the real reason it was rated low by some was maybe because of how boring and unnecessarily long and pointless some scenes were (Sam and Gilly), or how rushed and underdeveloped others were (Stannis and Davos). The entire final scene outside Meereen was weirdly directed and edited, and this episode also featured another pointless brothel scene that doesn't develop Oberyn any further than "hey remember how this guy is bisexual and sexually active? Yeah... he still is...". Characters like Jaime and Sandor acted randomly out of character, and some glaring continuity errors popped up, like how Sansa and Dontos leave the wedding in the middle of a perfectly clear warm day, and it's foggy and night in a couple of minutes.

These kind of things are also detractors for an episode's overall quality. Don't get so defensive before you consider other things apart from "hardcore book fans" and this "crazy overblown internet faux-outrage." While I wouldn't say this was the worst episode of the series (that 'honour' goes to The Bear and the Maiden Fair), and not even the worst of the season (that'd be The Lion and The Rose in my opinion), it was definitely in my top ten least favourite episodes of the series.

Edited by Queen of Whores

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You seem quick to blame supposed book purists getting whiny over changes, and yet you don't consider the real reason it was rated low by some was maybe because of how boring and unnecessarily long and pointless some scenes were (Sam and Gilly), or how rushed and underdeveloped others were (Stannis and Davos). The entire final scene outside Meereen was weirdly directed and edited, and this episode also featured another pointless brothel scene that doesn't develop Oberyn any further than "hey remember how this guy is bisexual and sexually active? Yeah... he still is...". Characters like Jaime and Sandor acted randomly out of character, and some glaring continuity errors popped up, like how Sansa and Dontos leave the wedding in the middle of a perfectly clear warm day, and it's foggy and night in a couple of minutes.

These kind of things are also detractors for an episode's overall quality. Don't get so defensive before you consider other things apart from "hardcore book fans" and this "crazy overblown internet faux-outrage." While I wouldn't say this was the worst episode of the series (that 'honour' goes to The Bear and the Maiden Fair), and not even the worst of the season (that'd be The Lion and The Rose in my opinion), it was definitely in my top ten least favourite episodes of the series.

I'm not certain on which points you and I are in disagreement. You said yourself it's not the worst episode of the series. I said the same.

As for internet faux-outrage, well, it is. Do you think mainstream media care one bit about Jaime's character arc and the supposed damage to it? Do you think they protest because Jaime raping Cersei means the show condones rape, glamorizes and romanticizes it? That this, after all the shit that has happened on the show, is somehow the most morally reprehensible act we've ween? No. They jumped on the bandwagon because they saw the potential for clickbait. Just look at the dates of the published online material. The media outlets had these episodes for weeks in advance. Almost no one made a big fuss over the scene. Actually, many respectable critics noted the interesting deviation from the books and expressed interest in how it will turn out. Then the net explodes in outrage and suddenly everyone publishes articles on inappropriateness of the scene. So, yeah, where media and the internet culture are concerned, it's faux-outrage, an opportunity to stand on a soapbox and show just how progressive they all are. Then they can pat each other on the back and say mission accomplished.

Edited by Mr Fixit

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I'm not certain on which points you and I are in disagreement. You said yourself it's not the worst episode of the series. I said the same.

As for internet faux-outrage, well, it is. Do you think mainstream media care one bit about Jaime's character arc and the supposed damage to it? Do you think they protest because Jaime raping Cersei means the show condones rape, glamorizes and romanticizes it? No. They jumped on the bandwagon because they saw the potential for clickbait. Just look at the dates of the published online material. The media outlets had these episodes for weeks in advance. Almost no one makes a big fuss of the scene. Then the net explodes in outrage and suddenly everyone publishes articles on inappropriateness of the scene. So, yeah, where the media and the internet culture is concerned, it's faux-outrage, an opportunity to stand on a soapbox and show just how progressive we all are. Then we can pat each other on the back and say mission accomplished.

The internet frenzy is really dumb, yes, and I too hate how people are parading around their "anti-rape" views like it makes them some kind of hero. I'm not in disagreement with you there. But other stuff, like the actual characterization of Stannis, Jaime and Sandor has been very weak and random these past couple of episodes, and fans of the characters have the right to be annoyed at the show screwing around with perfectly fine characters that have been developed rather well until this point (well, except Stannis).

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The internet frenzy is really dumb, yes, and I too hate how people are parading around their "anti-rape" views like it makes them some kind of hero. I'm not in disagreement with you there. But other stuff, like the actual characterization of Stannis, Jaime and Sandor has been very weak and random these past couple of episodes, and fans of the characters have the right to be annoyed at the show screwing around with perfectly fine characters that have been developed rather well until this point (well, except Stannis).

Oh I agree that fans have every right to voice their displeasure if they don't like something.

Though, I must say that I don't agree with your points on Stannis, Jaime, and Sandor. I won't reiterate my thoughts on Jaime (I've done it enough already on these boards); I'll just say that in my view this was a very brutal and ugly turn of events that was nevertheless grounded in established Jaime-Cersei dynamics and I am quite interested to see how the writers will address this in the future. I truly don't think that this amounts to character assassination derailing Jaime's Redemption Train. Writers definitely took a big gamble and we have yet to see how it'll turn out. I am intrigued by the narrative prospects of this decision. Let me leave it at that.

As for Sandor, I'm not sure what the problem is. He was always a hard and brutal man. The first thing we see of him is when he kills a defenseless boy for running away. He's one of Martin's most complex creations and I don't doubt for a second that he's able to club some peasant over the head if there's motivation enough. Yeah, in 4x01 there was that cool man's gotta have a code line, but I saw that as simple a funny retort to Arya's point, not as the acknowledgement that he's this uber-principled man that never stoops to theft. Sandor's and Arya's scenes this episode are really great in my opinion, revealing a fantastic character dynamic between these two unlikely "partners".

On Stannis I agree to a point. Not because I think they botched his characterisation, which I don't, but because Dragonstone seems to be the biggest victim of ASOS's partition into two seasons. Stannis doesn't have that much to do until 4x09, so they're keeping him in limbo mode, going in cirlces and restating all the relevant momets already covered in the last season. So yeah, here I'd have to agree that the Dragonstone material is definitely lacking and isn't all that interesting. But that in my view is a consequence of not enough meat on them bi-seasonal bones and not of Stannis characterisation. Don't worry, by the end of S4 and into S5 he'll be the Stannis you love.

Edited by Mr Fixit

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I personally don't mind the Jaime/Cersei scene, because it's apparent from both the novels and the series that Jaime isn't a whiter than white hero, so there's not much to 'assassinate' even if you like him and believe in his redemption arc. How is being a bit rapey with his sister, who he's previously been sexually involved with, any worse than crippling a child?


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Mr Fixit is a voice of reason as always, here and on wicnet. I'm extremely surprised that this episode has been rated so lowly. It was strong and consistent and moved the plot along a helluva lot without being clunky about it. Currently it has a nine on imdb and a ninety-five on Rotten Tomatoes. I gave it an eight. But really do people think this episode is worse than "the Night Lands"? I just don't see that. Besides the over-politicised and overblown objections to THAT scene (which I by no means share), I can't see why anyone would consider this the worst episode of the entire show.


Edited by Konradsmith

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Mr Fixit is a voice of reason as always, here and on wicnet. I'm extremely surprised that this episode has been rated so lowly. It was strong and consistent and moved the plot along a helluva lot without being clunky about it. Currently it has a nine on imdb and a ninety-five on Rotten Tomatoes. I gave it an eight. But really do people think this episode is worse than "the Night Lands"? I just don't see that. Besides the over-politicised and overblown objections to THAT scene (which I by no means share), I can't see why anyone would consider this the worst episode of the entire show.

Thanks. :blush:

Yes, Breaker of Chains is very strong for a transitional episode that checks in on quite a few storylines. Aftermath of the PW was handled very well containing multiple strong scenes with Tywin, Cersei, Tommen, Oberyn, Tyrion, Pod, Tyrells and yeah, THAT SCENE. As a fan of lore, I was especially pleased with Tywin's recounting of various kings of old as well as with the mention that Dorne withstood the Targaryen invasion.

Arya and Hound were a delight as usual and a welcome peak into the lives of smallfolk in war-torn Riverlands.

The Wall moved things at a nice clip, introducing both the WIldlings' plans to draw out the NW out of Castle Black by raiding the Gift and Jon's plan to eliminate the mutineers at Craster's for very sensible reasons - if Mance gets to them first, he'll know that there are only 100, not 1,000 black brother left at CB and then it's Game Over. Sam and Gilly had a nice setup scene that will probably play a role down the line, though it was a bit repetitive, as it didn't reveal anything we didn't already know about them. However, since the show had to re-introduce them this season, I'm willing to cut them some slack on this point.

Dragonstone scenes viewed in isolation are actually quite good. I really enjoyed Davos and Shireen and his Iron Bank plan. (There's certainly a lot of new plans being put into motion this episode, right?) However, I do agree that Dragonstone material feels pretty stagnant since Stannis essentially broods for a season and a half. I look forward to some action here.

Finally, Dany was a blast; an absolutely fantastic scene. Everything there rang true. I giggled at Daario the Inconsequential, apparently the only guy in Dany's inner circle that's no big deal if he dies. I liked how anticlimactic the duel was with the whole Indiana Jones vibe. And Emilia Clarke's command of Valyrian... unbelievable how good and charismatic she is.

A very strong episode, no doubt about it. Around 8.5 or even better.

Edited by Mr Fixit

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An expected reaction by hardcore book fans, fueled by this crazy overblown internet faux-outrage. Does anyone really think this was the worst episode of the show? Come on. It's not even close. Just how last episodes's average was no doubt brought down considerably because of Stannis faux-outrage. Though to be honest, that episode was probably brought up by the Joff hype so maybe, when all is said and done, there we were closer to the truth.

I find the Unsullied reaction a good barometer: this Jaime thing barely registered as something inconceivable and unforgivable on their radars.

I thought it was the worst episode of the series because so many things were clumsy. This has been a very high quality series thus far and I don't like seeing bad staging. Not to mention that every storyline looks like it is in danger veering completely away from the source material. We didn't need the hound's asshole scene because he should be gone from the story by now. Jon Snow doesn't defend the wall from both sides with a few men before reinfocements arrive? Instead he is going to lead some strike team back to Crasters keep? Huh? No Coldhands?

Hopefully we'll get back on track but the bloated storyline issue is starting to catch up with the show despite everything they've trimmed.

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May I ask what you hated so much about True Detective? I've seen a lot of "excellent" TV, as some would say, like The Wire, The Sopranos, Deadwood, etc, and I honestly thought the first four episodes* were some of the most flawless TV I've ever seen in my life, and normally I'm a very critical person when it comes to TV and films. Also, even if you didn't like the storyline or pacing, I find it hard to believe anyone that's watched both Game of Thrones and True Detective (especially the six minute long-take in episode 4) can say Game of Thrones is better directed. Cary Fukunaga (the director of all of True Detective's first season) is leagues better than any director on Game of Thrones, imho.

* The show steadily started losing steam and brilliance in episodes 5 and 6, and episodes 7 and 8 were pieces of shit, in my opinion, at least compared to the first half the season, but the first half is incredible beyond just about anything I've seen on TV.

The first half of True Detective was some of the best film making I've seen on any media in years. The last episode was risible dog shit, which is 100% the fault of the writers and producers. So compaing to GoT what's the issue? Well for me it's how boringly safe the direction is. It doesn't look right for a start, the costumes are all wrong, they're swanning around in suits and dresses with modern cuts and materials. The scenes are poorly directed overall, poor use of close ups, everything shot in medium frame with apparently unmoveable cameras, yes Mr. Direcor we're watching a TV show as you will never let us forget it. Where are the risks, where is the desire to dirve the show forward at a decent narriative pace? They will have the biggest budget of any TV show I reckon, and yes they have a big cast, but attempting to bring some art into the most important part of film making should not be an issue of money.

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8 from me.



Dany's scene was excellent, her speech made me giddy.


Tywin's lecturing to Tommen while Cersei is silently standing by was awesome.


Tyrion's scene with Pod was touching.



But the Jaime/Cersei scene was horribly uncomfortable viewing.


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^Which it would've been even if she'd said yes. The books and show have gotten us so used to incest now that we seem to forget that it is as fucked up as a good many other things.


Edited by Konradsmith

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^Which it would've been even if she'd said yes. The books and show have gotten us so used to incest now that we seem to forget that it is as fucked up as a good many other things.

Incest isn't as fucked up as rape, imo. At least one is consensual, no matter what the circumstance.

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hmmm Surely, this ep. does not merit anything less than a seven(8 Imo) but a 5 or 4 let a lone 2 or 1, Wow! I didnt know people could be so harsh. I can only imagine what they think of half of other crap on Tv. Thats no excuse or anything, im just saying...



Holding it to book standards should be a crime in and of itself



Except, where Stannis is concerned :smoking:


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I think a main "problem" of the episode is that it deals with a lot of stuff either after an important event or leading up to another big event. It's a lot of people "getting ready for something" or "discussing what just happened" and not much that stands on it's own. That's basically what I got from everyone I talked to bookreader or not, you feel a lot of stuff is getting planned but you sort of wait all episode for things to get going and although Dany's scene actually has stuff going on, it's still her getting ready to take the city, so that even ends with somthing like that.


This in combination with an episode right before which turned a lot of things around, makes it sort of a filler, which is not really "bad" but just doesn't have that big impression to people.


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