How would you rate episode 404?

[sifth]

The Mountain applies perfectly.

Season 1, we hear about his misdeeds in the Riverlands which prompts Eddard to act on his negative feeling toward the Lannisters ultimately leading to his downfall. Is Clegane's contribution somewhat contrived? Sure. Does it feel feel cheap? No. Why not? Because it's only an element of the puzzle and GRRM actually knows how to drive a story forward without relying on artificial tension.

In the case at hand, we have some douchebag who no one recognizes reciting lame dialogue about his misdeeds for the obvious purpose of making us hate him before he and his band of rebels meet up with Jon's band of Brothers. Does it feel cheap? Yes. Why? Because it's hack writing artificially inserting garbage to substitute as tension. It's the rough equivalent of playing a pop song at the end of a RomCom as a substitute for the emotional connection the script failed to make.

We also see that same character chop off the head of a horse and try to murder the son of the second most powerful man in the kingdom. What you stated above felt unbelievably cheap on the show. GRRM has said many times that one of the big flaws of season 1 was they couldn't show any real battles.

Edited April 29, 2014 by sifth

[iknownothingjonsnow]

We also see that same character chop off the head of a horse and try to murder the son of the second most powerful man in the kingdom. What you stated above felt unbelievably cheap on the show. GRRM has said many times that one of the big flaws of season 1 was they couldn't show any real battles.

Whether or not it's shown on screen isn't even a little bit the point.

The point is: "Hi, I'm a bad guy, let me do a few ridiculous things to show you I'm a bad guy while I talk about all of the terrible things I've done to let you know I'm a bad guy so that you instantly hate me and can be happy when a good guy eventually shows up and kills me" is pretty much the most superficial, lame-ass writing imaginable. They've did it to introduce the Thenns, and now they've done it with Kirk (or whatever his name is).

No one is trying to kill The Mountain because he decapitated a horse. Oberyn wants to kill The Mountain (sort of) because of events which occurred before the books and which we've heard about through natural means, not Gregor standing over a fire and beating his chest bragging about murdering Elia and her children. Similarly, his criminal acts in the Riverlands were parenthetical as related to the actual story. That tension was created by Jaime acting to protect Tyrion which conflicted with Ned acting to protect Cat, who was acting to avenge her son. All The Mountain provided was some measure of moral justification for Ned to do what he wanted to do anyway, which was act out against the Lannisters. That tangential influence is night-and-day from what we're talking about at Craster's.

Good writing is believable characters committing understandable acts which naturally creates conflict with each other. That's why, in the best storytelling, both the good and bad guys justifiably believe they're on the side of the angels. That's also why ASOIAF has so many "grey" characters - because GRRM is brilliant with the establishment and interplay of many separate "worlds", and it rarely manifests itself as 'on the nose' as pretty much everything D&D have contributed so far this season.

[sifth]

Whether or not it's shown on screen isn't even a little bit the point.

The point is: "Hi, I'm a bad guy, let me do a few ridiculous things to show you I'm a bad guy while I talk about all of the terrible things I've done to let you know I'm a bad guy so that you instantly hate me and can be happy when a good guy eventually shows up and kills me" is pretty much the most superficial, lame-ass writing imaginable. They've did it to introduce the Thenns, and now they've done it with Kirk (or whatever his name is).

Which is exactly what GRRM did with The Mountain, when he was first introduced. Edited April 29, 2014 by sifth

[The Bastard of Walton]

The whole Bran part ruined the episode for me. Until that point I thought it was good, but I really don't understand why they made such a massive change. Seemed pointless. I understand that some parts have to be slightly altered but this was completely pointless & senseless. These deserters would simply kill Bran,Jojen &Hodor, & Then brutally treat Meera. Pointless, worst change since the whole Dagmar acts as Reek moment.

As for the whole Darth Maul of the Others moment, that reveal has made the series & books very cliché for me. The "Great" Other vs Dany on a Dragon has always made for dull reading & watching. Seems that's the way its going to happen now though. What a Shame.

On a plus side Jaime, Bronn, Tyrion, Podrick & Brienne all shined.

[Mr Fixit]

These deserters would simply kill Bran,Jojen &Hodor, & Then brutally treat Meera. Pointless, worst change since the whole Dagmar acts as Reek moment.

And why is that? Only an idiot would kill the last freaking Stark of Winterfell in existence (Rickon being gone who knows where, might even be dead by now). You don't kill him, you use him as leverage if it comes to that. This boy could be the mutineer's ticket home, if they play it right.

People could really think things through before moaning about e.v.e.r.y s.i.n.g.l.e. change from the books.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Mr Fixit

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

And why is that? Only an idiot would kill the last freaking Stark of Winterfell in existence (Rickon being gone who knows where, might even be dead by now). You don't kill him, you use him as leverage if it comes to that. This boy could be the mutineer's ticket home, if they play it right.

People could really think things through before moaning about e.v.e.r.y s.i.n.g.l.e. change from the books.

I think it was pretty clear that Karl is aware they're running on limited resources and a highborn hostage would be a huge asset.

[sj4iy]

9 - I was on the edge of my seat at the end of the episode. I absolutely love what they've done with the converging story lines and can't wait to see how it plays out.

[brAnthelAstgreenseer]

The last 10 mins all i was thinking was : OMG they didn't just do that !! I was on the edge of my seat . Loved it .

[Ser Reyno]

The whole Bran part ruined the episode for me. Until that point I thought it was good, but I really don't understand why they made such a massive change. Seemed pointless. I understand that some parts have to be slightly altered but this was completely pointless & senseless. These deserters would simply kill Bran,Jojen &Hodor, & Then brutally treat Meera. Pointless, worst change since the whole Dagmar acts as Reek moment.

As for the whole Darth Maul of the Others moment, that reveal has made the series & books very cliché for me. The "Great" Other vs Dany on a Dragon has always made for dull reading & watching. Seems that's the way its going to happen now though. What a Shame.

On a plus side Jaime, Bronn, Tyrion, Podrick & Brienne all shined.

Completely agree with your Bran comment. The only way it could have been worse was if the outlaw Crows had captured him in a whore house. I'm surprised HBO didn't try to work that angle.......

[Mr Fixit]

Completely agree with your Bran comment. The only way it could have been worse was if the outlaw Crows had captured him in a whore house. I'm surprised HBO didn't try to work that angle.......

Har de har har.

Do you write your own material?

[Juanis66]

The episode was developing between 8 and 9 to me but starting with the Bran meet crows rebel section and ending with the pathetic and terrible mix between a frozen Darth Maul at a frozen Stonehenge my rating collapsed to 5.

I want to believe it wasn't the original idea of GRRM about the truth of the WW (still veiled on the books) but the influence (bad) of HBO.

Very dissapointed and a little bit pessimistic for the rest of the seasson.

I was waiting for this kind of stuff to the moment when the episodes reach the last published book (ADwD), but no so early.

[NaarioDaharis]

ALRIGHT EVERYBODY MY OPINION IS THE BEST BECAUSE I AM ME AND ALSO I'M THE BEST!

Caps lock off...

• Jaime and Brienne- very touching scenes here and there, especially at their departure. I thought some of the dialogue was clunky and missed the mark. Also, I'm pretty sure Jaime names Oathkeeper, but it was sweet coming from Brienne.
  
• Sansa and Littlefinger- Not much to say about this scene. It was all exposition. I assume they are revealing the culprits behind Joffrey's assassination so that the viewers can be sure that Tyrion is the good guy.
  
• Marg and QoT- This was interesting and important character work. I will miss the Queen of Thorns.
  
• Marg and Tommen- Very, very sexy from Marg. They have upped Tommen's age to make Marg's work on him clearly sensual. This is working very well so far and makes for great viewing. The Tommen actor did nice work.
  
• Jaime and Tyrion- I can't really think of anything that happened here of import. Character development that hints at future actions from Jaime later. Let's not let there be any surprises for the viewers, now! Viewers are dumb, and must have things spelled out for them. We are smarter because we are from Hollywood and Hollywood is the best and that makes us the best!
  
• Oh shit I forgot about Dany- They wanna complain that they need filler to fix their fucked up time gaps, but they rush so many events that I just assume they are dumb and think they can do better than source material. This part was entertaining, but overly simplified and rushed. Dany is starting to suck. Barristan had an epic moment. Where was Daario? Why doesn't Jorah get lines?
  
• The hell is going on at the Wall?- So basically everything going on at the Wall is filler because they fucked up the timeline and positively CAN'T have the big epic battle for the Wall happen before episode 9 of the season. NOOOOOO WAY! Not all of it is boring, but it is dumb. Everyone's reason for doing anything is dumb. I don't even want to spell it out. None of it makes any sense and makes all of the NW characters seem like idiots.
  
• The clown-ass Other thing- Now, I don't like this scene, and not because it is a "spoiler" (but it isn't really, its just kinda another spelling things out to viewers because they think the audience is dumb and needs to be told this). The reason this is a bad scene is basically the reason that pretty every horror movie falls on its face. Horror comes from a lack of understanding and mystery. The White Walkers are scary in the books because we never see them. Deciding that you have to explain the mystery behind them before they even do anything in the show destroys the mystery behind them. Once we understand the WW, we no longer have any need to fear them. We now know what they do with the babies and it is nowhere near as horrible as what our imaginations predicted. You have now humanized the White Walkers. Good job. They are officially no longer a scary, otherworldly entity.
  

Also, that Other's make-up looked like shit! Freakin' power rangers material there. Who decided that looked appropriate at all for Game of Thrones?

I'll rate this episode a 7/10 because everything but the Wall and North was enjoyable and made sense.

[rmholt]

On second view I give it a 9. There was a lot of stage-setting but they made it interesting at worst and mindblowing at best. Margaery-Tommen was perfect. Everyone was in character.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

• The clown-ass Other thing- Now, I don't like this scene, and not because it is a "spoiler" (but it isn't really, its just kinda another spelling things out to viewers because they think the audience is dumb and needs to be told this). The reason this is a bad scene is basically the reason that pretty every horror movie falls on its face. Horror comes from a lack of understanding and mystery. The White Walkers are scary in the books because we never see them. Deciding that you have to explain the mystery behind them before they even do anything in the show destroys the mystery behind them. Once we understand the WW, we no longer have any need to fear them. We now know what they do with the babies and it is nowhere near as horrible as what our imaginations predicted. You have now humanized the White Walkers. Good job. They are officially no longer a scary, otherworldly entity.

You know what would've been better is if we never actually see any of them, books or show. Even at the end of the last book if we had never encountered one it would've been so mysterious and thrilling! Brilliant! You should write to GRRM and tell him make sure you don't give away any details at all about the Others and omit them entirely so that we can just use our imaginations instead.

[Ser Shaft of Hightower]

I liked the Jaime/Brienne/Tyrion and Sansa/LF scenes. The ending with the Walker(s) was also cinematic and ...appropriately chilling.

But all in all, this was the weakest, most confused episode of the entire series.

Jon AND Bran going to Crasters... wtf. Talk about wonky plotting.

Where in the hell are the Thenns and other so-called wildling "threats"?

It sure is taking a long time for them to get there, since Jon has apparently completely healed since having to "hurry and warn everyone" about the "imminent wildling threat" bearing down on The Wall since... last season.

Margeary and Tommen. Er, there's nothing to see here, folks.

The Missande+Grey Worm no-mance. Never mind the Jorah and Barristan banishment by Dany subplot; we need to focus on these two and their foreplay to nowhere!

The sacking of Mereen was grossly oversimplified into an eye-for-an-eye, one and done affair

[NaarioDaharis]

I liked the Jaime/Brienne/Tyrion and Sansa/LF scenes. The ending with the Walker(s) was also cinematic and ...appropriately chilling.

But all in all, this was the weakest, most confused episode of the entire series.

Jon AND Bran going to Crasters... wtf. Talk about wonky plotting.

Where in the hell are the Thenns and other so-called wildling "threats"?

It sure is taking a long time for them to get there, since Jon has apparently completely healed since having to "hurry and warn everyone" about the "imminent wildling threat" bearing down on The Wall since... last season.

Margeary and Tommen. Er, there's nothing to see here, folks.

The Missande+Grey Worm no-mance. Never mind the Jorah and Barristan banishment by Dany subplot; we need to focus on these two and their foreplay to nowhere!

The sacking of Mereen was grossly oversimplified into an eye-for-an-eye, one and done affair

Exactly. They've done a very poor job with matching everyone's journeys to converge at appropriate moments. Now, there's all these convoluted plots being made up in order to give the characters something to do. That's what makes it filler. And filler is never good unless its in a twinkie.

[error303]

6 from me. Lots of good setup, dialgoe, well acted and scripted, did all the essentials right, good adaptation and changes from book to show, and all that fun stuff.

Really annoyed at how they glossed over the tacking of Mereen. Lots of setup spent on Greyworm rallying the slaves, sowing dissent, and all that, and then you get to see one guy in an empty ally attacked by maybe two dozen slaves and then cut to "Danny wins again!" Show me three days of chaos and madness in the streets. I hope they do the Seige better (and I think they will).

Not to rehash the Jaime/Cersei "that scene", but if they wanted to make it rape, make it rape, as Jaime can totally be a character who does both really noble and really terrible things. If they don't want it to be rape, they really ought take a hard look at how it was directed, acted, and edited, because in no way does it come off as it's written in the book. But then if they do go with the Jaime is a really bad person and raped Cersei angle, it's so hard to have any other scene with those two characters together. Honestly, Cersei in both the book and the show would have her rapist dead in his sleep. That one scence just mucked up the character dynamics so bad for me.

The whole "let's go murder some deserters because they might share information with some one who may or may already know (Mance being part of the Night's Watch and seemingly already knowing their rough numbers any) and may or may not murder them on sight anyway (as at that point the Wildling's probbalyhave a plan of attack and don't want to drag around prisonsers or take time for any fun intelligence gathering). It just seems like a totally boneheaded decision for Jon to make, even if he has some secret motivation to maybe perhaps luck in to finding Bran somewhere North of the wall.

But, again, overly a solid episode, I like the off-book stuff and I think they did some good setup for coming episodes. Just three big pieces I didn't like and stuck in my head more than maybe they should be.

[Mr Fixit]

I suggest people look up the meaning of "filler". It doesn't mean "not in the books". The sooner you get it, the better.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

I suggest people look up the meaning of "filler". It doesn't mean "not in the books". The sooner you get it, the better.

As much as I appreciate arrogance and condescension, in this case it kind of does mean that.

D&D have professed a desire to stay true to the books. Ergo, anything they add will either [A] break that promise by leading a storyline to a different outcome, or do nothing to advance any of the storylines and thus constitute filler.

The only real exception would be the revealing of upcoming book elements to which they've been privileged, but I'm guessing that's not the nature of the 'filler' complaints to which you refer.

Edited April 29, 2014 by iknownothingjonsnow

[GeorgeIAF]

Really enjoyed it, gave it a 9.