Are the Starks Out?

[Queen Sansa Stark]

I am agreeing with you (to some point) but you are wrong about one thing. Lady wasn't buried in the crypts but in the special place where Kings and Lords of the North buried their faithful servants...

And your conclusion, absolutely brilliant :)

Well thank you for correcting me :D. As for if the Starks are out? Never forget what the original title of the last book was. The Starks will rise again.

[Mladen]

Suggesting, that Sansa might do something important to "serve" her family and/or the future King of the North or Westeros...perhaps by bringing the Vale army North when it's most needed?!? That could certainly be a 'service' to Rickon AND Jon.

TBH, I don't draw any conclusion from the fact where is Lady buried. But I do believe that she will be of great service to her brothers and North itself.

[Winnief]

As for if the Starks are out? Never forget what the original title of the last book was. The Starks will rise again.

:cheers:

Plus, we have Jojen's testimony, "The Wolves will come back."

Of, course whether the Starks will ever get involved in Court politics again-or even be willing to make a trip South-that's a different question altogether. I could see the surviving Starks deciding that the lesson in all this is that they should never EVER leave the North EVER again, because when they do, Bad Things Happen.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Neither do I actually, but it could be interpreted that Sansa will be the Stark of Winterfell eventually. Is it true? Most likely not.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

:cheers:

Plus, we have Jojen's testimony, "The Wolves will come back."

Of, course whether the Starks will ever get involved in Court politics again-or even be willing to make a trip South-that's a different question altogether. I could see the surviving Starks deciding that the lesson in all this is that they should never EVER leave the North EVER again, because when they do, Bad Things Happen.

I disagree with there. I think the reason why the Starks went down was because they are - well let's face it - politically inept. Staying clear out of the court politics of the South is one of the reasons they collapsed. If they wish to survive they have to be more involved with the south imo. Personally I think this will be what Sansa will bring to the table of the Stark family. Be a diplomat that will deal with the South. I think that grrm is setting Sansa up to be the Catelyn of the Starks. A mother figure to the younger ones and a political adviser. Someone on Tumblr made such a remarkable comment about Sansa and since then the idea that Sansa and Rickon will be the better and improved version of Catelyn and Robb is so fascinating to me.

[greensleeves]

TBH, I don't draw any conclusion from the fact where is Lady buried. But I do believe that she will be of great service to her brothers and North itself.

The obvious conclusion is that Lady will rise as a wight and eat Ramsay... a fitting end for a guy that names his dogs after the women they've killed. :P

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I think the Starks are rising now, rather than in the first books, where the direction pointed to be "The Fall of House Stark." The Wolves will return, Jojen has predicted. The bittersweet part for me is that when they do, they won't ever be able to truly return home. Home became their dream of Spring, and current Winterfell won't be the same. Arya and Sansa and Bran and Rickon, if they are ever reunited, might not even recognize each other. I stand by the theory that Rickon will be confused by Sansa and think she's Catelyn. Now that's depressing.

I disagree with there. I think the reason why the Starks went down was because they are - well let's face it - politically inept. Staying clear out of the court politics of the South is one of the reasons they collapsed. If they wish to survive they have to be more involved with the south imo. Personally I think this will be what Sansa will bring to the table of the Stark family. Be a diplomat that will deal with the South. I think that grrm is setting Sansa up to be the Catelyn of the Starks. A mother figure to the younger ones and a political adviser. Someone on Tumblr made such a remarkable comment about Sansa and since then the idea that Sansa and Rickon will be the better and improved version of Catelyn and Robb is so fascinating to me.

I agree. I'd have to say that in my opinion, this generation of House Stark will be more in tune with the Old Kings in the North than Ned. I've heard that same theory on Tumblr, but it was Jon rather than Ned (And It was used as an argument for Sansa/Jon wedding)

[butterbumps!]

I was wondering about why Sansa is still a character. Don't get me wrong, she is alright with me, I just feel with everything thats happened that she could have been killed so many times.

.....................

I think many will disagree with me, but I think Sansa is dead (Starkness). I read a bit on what people thought about the significance of her Direwolve's death. I'm very much on the idea that her Starkness died when she decided not to tell the truth about what happened by the river. She tried to maintain her personal relationship without doing what had to be done. Rob and Ned also suffered from the same reasons.

Doesn't the bolded apply to Jon, and most especially, Arya?

I'm not sure what "Starkness" is other than identifying as a Stark, and we know Sansa does that privately throughout her captivity.

Can you elaborate more on where you're going with this? Are you saying that the Starks (any of the 4 remaining + Jon) will never recover Winterfell and/ or the North, return home, that the Stark line will die? Is this about Sansa specifically, and are you saying she will remain Alayne, or even pursue other political gains, but not as a Stark?

[Winnief]

Someone on Tumblr made such a remarkable comment about Sansa and since then the idea that Sansa and Rickon will be the better and improved version of Catelyn and Robb is so fascinating to me.

Well that could well be one reason, we see her "mothering" SR so much-GRRM is setting her up to be a natural choice for Rickon's 'regent.'

I'd have to say that in my opinion, this generation of House Stark will be more in tune with the Old Kings in the North than Ned. I've heard that same theory on Tumblr, but it was Jon rather than Ned (And It was used as an argument for Sansa/Jon wedding)

Very possibly. Rickon certainly seems to be more of the "wild wolf" blood that Brandon Stark represented than the cooler stuff that Ned was made of. So is Arya for that matter.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think it's very likely that Rickon does not remember what his parents looked like since the last time he saw them he was 3. That's young enough to forget unless GRRM uses some magic dream type thing.

On Arya she has wolf's blood but I think her characterization is making her more cold as the series goes on. Jon said that she would be frozen with a needle locked tight b/w her fingers. If one takes that metaphorically she would be frozen inside and can't stop killing.

I don't think she will be this bad:

I think he would be pleased if the fat man attempted some betrayal. It would amuse him. Roose has no feelings, you see. Those leeches that he loves so well sucked all the passions out of him years ago. He does not love, he does not hate, he does not grieve. This is a game to him, mildly diverting. Some men hunt, some hawk, some tumble dice. Roose plays with men. You and me, these Freys, Lord Manderly, his plump new wife, even his bastard, we are but his playthings.

Although GRRM did say that with children in Arya's position it becomes a game to them but I think if her new chapter indicates anything it's emotional numbness and being very cold and detached. However, she is not completely without emotion. It just mainly seems to be geared towards violent behavior. Brandon's mirths were as wild as his rages. Arya is not so mirthful anymore. At least not genuinely. Many warm feelings of compassion and empathy etc. while not completely gone don't have much of a presence like I wouldn't use those words to describe her.

[gregg22]

The first thing first, what is the "Starkness"? Do people consider it some level of awesomeness that you can achieve only through some activities made up by fandom? Does person named Stark have more Starkness than those Karstarks? And WTH is the point of "Starkness"

Since I am a firm believer there is no such thing as Starkness, and for some reason I believe that when you have a Stark surname, you are Stark enough, I am simply baffled by some people's insistence of arguing that one Stark is more Stark than the others. It's, IMHO, nonsensical and simply pointless.

I think I'm in general agreement with you on Sansa, but not on this point. I think GRRM has certainly used the concept of "Starkness" for lack of a better term. We've seen at least two other characters (Jon Snow & Theon) have internal struggle with a Stark identity, and we have a fake Arya who although she is of the north has no Stark qualities.

Keep in mind too, Stark is one of the only surnames in the ASOIF that I can thank of that is actually an adjective that describes a general personality of them.

I think a more appropriate question for Sansa is if she is more Tully than Stark, or maybe more southron than northern. Certainly Littlefinger views her as a Tully (that may be the key to the north).

As has been said by other posters though, Sansa IS a Stark, and I think Littlefinger will be learning that too. Any apparent deviation from "Starkness" on the surface is only setting the stage for Sansa's own Stark redemption.

[Mladen]

I think I'm in general agreement with you on Sansa, but not on this point. I think GRRM has certainly used the concept of "Starkness" for lack of a better term. We've seen at least two other characters (Jon Snow & Theon) have internal struggle with a Stark identity, and we have a fake Arya who although she is of the north has no Stark qualities.

Keep in mind too, Stark is one of the only surnames in the ASOIF that I can thank of that is actually an adjective that describes a general personality of them.

I think a more appropriate question for Sansa is if she is more Tully than Stark, or maybe more southron than northern. Certainly Littlefinger views her as a Tully (that may be the key to the north).

As has been said by other posters though, Sansa IS a Stark, and I think Littlefinger will be learning that too. Any apparent deviation from "Starkness" on the surface is only setting the stage for Sansa's own Stark redemption.

I am sorry, but this makes no sense... GRRM didn't use the concept of "Starkness", the fans created it in their own heads. That is why we have been discussing quite extensively the misconceptions about Northerners. And this just proves it. Starks are just a family, and like any other, have a wide range of diverse personalities in it. From the likes of Brandon and Arya to Jon, Ned and Sansa. Simply, they are all Starks. It is stupid to assume that one is more or less Stark than another. They have Stark blood, and that is what makes them Stark. Even Jon who doesn't have a Stark name, is a Stark due to his blood.

As for whether Sansa is more Stark than Tully, or more Southerner than Northerner, I can say that without any doubt, Sansa is a Northerner (I imagine that for some people that is like some great honor or success), she is Ned's true daughter and resembles her father more than any of his children (legitimate kids, plus Jon is not Ned's IMO). Although one can wonder how much of North is in Ned given that he was raised in the South by a Southerner. Simply put, all of this talk "Sansa is no Northerner" is a bit hilarious given the numerous occasions she parallels stories and situations from the North.

[Errant Bard]

They have Stark blood, and that is what makes them Stark. Even Jon who doesn't have a Stark name, is a Stark due to his blood.

I agree there is no such thing as Lannister-ness, Stark-ness, Baratheon-ness, Targaryen-ness (even though some people really are prone to generalising in universe, about those) but if you invoke "blood" as a the one factor for belonging to one family or another, then the Kastarks are as much Starks as Jon...

[gregg22]

I am sorry, but this makes no sense... GRRM didn't use the concept of "Starkness", the fans created it in their own heads. That is why we have been discussing quite extensively the misconceptions about Northerners. And this just proves it. Starks are just a family, and like any other, have a wide range of diverse personalities in it. From the likes of Brandon and Arya to Jon, Ned and Sansa. Simply, they are all Starks. It is stupid to assume that one is more or less Stark than another. They have Stark blood, and that is what makes them Stark. Even Jon who doesn't have a Stark name, is a Stark due to his blood.

As for whether Sansa is more Stark than Tully, or more Southerner than Northerner, I can say that without any doubt, Sansa is a Northerner (I imagine that for some people that is like some great honor or success), she is Ned's true daughter and resembles her father more than any of his children (legitimate kids, plus Jon is not Ned's IMO). Although one can wonder how much of North is in Ned given that he was raised in the South by a Southerner. Simply put, all of this talk "Sansa is no Northerner" is a bit hilarious given the numerous occasions she parallels stories and situations from the North.

"Jon was not afraid of death, but he did not want to die like that, trussed and bound and beheaded like a common brigand. If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father's killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one... but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three. "

- Jon after hearing of Ned's death

Sounds to me like there is some concept of being a Stark in Jon's mind...blood or no blood. How can you say GRRM hasn't tried to create some concept of a personality for each House? Of course their are individual personalities, but half the damn novels are about the characters struggle to reconcile their personal traits with the traits of their family.

Whether perceived or desired traits the author is certainly trying to convey them, because they have a role.

[Darksnider05]

Doesn't Tywin push being a Lannister really hard along with Cersei.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

gregg22 I think you are confusing the values of the house words with personality traits. The only way to be a true Stark imo is identify yourself as a Stark and be proud of your heritage. Which Sansa did from the beginning.

[Mladen]

"Jon was not afraid of death, but he did not want to die like that, trussed and bound and beheaded like a common brigand. If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father's killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one... but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three. "

- Jon after hearing of Ned's death

Sounds to me like there is some concept of being a Stark in Jon's mind...blood or no blood. How can you say GRRM hasn't tried to create some concept of a personality for each House? Of course their are individual personalities, but half the damn novels are about the characters struggle to reconcile their personal traits with the traits of their family.

Whether perceived or desired traits the author is certainly trying to convey them, because they have a role.

The problem with the quote you posted and your own conclusion is in fact that they don't match. The quote speaks about Jon being aware of his bastard status, but also of desire to be equal with his brothers. This has always been a great theme in Jon's storyline - his struggle with who he was and how people saw him different from his siblings. So, the quote you posted actually has nothing to do with the fact of personality traits.

And The Sun of Dorne perfectly explained it:

gregg22 I think you are confusing the values of the house words with personality traits. The only way to be a true Stark imo is identify yourself as a Stark and be proud of your heritage. Which Sansa did from the beginning.

[Darksnider05]

gregg22 I think you are confusing the values of the house words with personality traits. The only way to be a true Stark imo is identify yourself as a Stark and be proud of your heritage. Which Sansa did from the beginning.

You wanna edit that? Or do we need to start bringing up times she wasn't representing the interest of House Stark?

I won't say she's not a Stark but don't say she's been team stark 100% of the journey as it's a blatant misrepresentation.

[butterbumps!]

You wanna edit that? Or do we need to start bringing up times she wasn't representing the interest of House Stark?

I don't know. Are you interested in looking at all those times Ned and Jon weren't representing the interests of House Stark either?

The poster you quoted didn't talk about "representing the interest of House Stark." She specifically pointed to identification as a Stark and pride in the Stark heritage.

As an aside, given how pervasive questioning Sansa's "Starkness" is, I kind of wonder why there aren't any debates about whether Ned "as high as honor" Stark is too "Arryn."

[Queen Sansa Stark]

You wanna edit that? Or do we need to start bringing up times she wasn't representing the interest of House Stark?

I won't say she's not a Stark but don't say she's been team stark 100% of the journey as it's a blatant misrepresentation.

No I won't. Why should I? You are interpreting my post in a wrong way. I have said absolutely nothing about "representing the interest of House Stark". I said that being a Stark entailed is honoring and valuing the Stark words. You could argue that Sansa doesn't really do that, but she isn't the only one. So far I haven't read in any of the Stark children pov chapters the words: "Winter is coming".