Vikings 3: Eye-Stabbing as a means of social mobility

[Veltigar]

Hm, makes sense I guess. But to be fair, Ragnar's a way better leader - at least from what we've seen thus far. If there's a good reason Horik's king (aside from being born into it) he hasn't shown it yet. And they spoke to Ragnar 'cause he can understand and communicate with them. Much simpler than having someone translate for Horik.

Makes me wonder if that played a part in Ecbert deciding to attack the vikings, or if he never intended to agree to a truce in the first place.

Horik seems apt at playing the game of thrones ;) that's why he's still there.

That's not what I got from that scene at all. I thought it was because the guy was so very obviously trying to count how many men they had and how big their camp was and Horrik axed him for it.

I love how everyone can have completly different views of the same scene. It makes for great discussions!

Personally, I don't believe in that particular point of view since the Vikings didn't exactly do much to hide their numbers. They were camped out pretty much in the open. If someone wanted to assess their strength they could have done that easily. It doesn't seem worth it to kill a guy for.

[Oberyn2cool4Westeros]

I think it's more likely that having half the invading host bug out spurred that on.

Horik was a dipshit for sticking around, but I guess we wouldn't have the monk/Ecbert storyline otherwise.

I agree. I thought the murdered guy was Ecbert's son - or at least one of 'em, they all kinda look alike when they're shown so little and so quickly. But in hindsight, I think Ecbert would've been pissed if they killed his son - and he didn't seem very angry at all after this event.

Horik is useless. Instead of trying to establish peace using Athelstan and trying to settle down - which was their whole plan - he kept his war-face on. They had a challenge with Ragnar's help, why did he think he had a chance with half the army gone?

Edit: @Veltigar: Can't argue with that. He plays the political game quite well, which is interesting to see since few people take interest in it.

Edit #2: I don't think it had anything to do with gathering info, because I'm sure the other soldiers and maybe even the bishop could've gathered the same info and relayed it back to the king. He'd have to kill all of 'em to keep their numbers and fortifications a secret.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Edit: @Veltigar: Can't argue with that. He plays the political game quite well, which is interesting to see since few people take interest in it.

I really don't see it, and I wanted to like this character given that I really enjoy Donal Logue. The whole fail of Northumbria lies squarely on his head. I have to imagine that Ragnar will either cut ties with him or just straight up overthrow him before too long.

[Oberyn2cool4Westeros]

I really don't see it, and I wanted to like this character given that I really enjoy Donal Logue. The whole fail of Northumbria lies squarely on his head. I have to imagine that Ragnar will either cut ties with him or just straight up overthrow him before too long.

If nothing else he knows how women try to manipulate men, lol. Tho, one would think that'd be common knowledge.

[Veltigar]

I really don't see it, and I wanted to like this character given that I really enjoy Donal Logue. The whole fail of Northumbria lies squarely on his head. I have to imagine that Ragnar will either cut ties with him or just straight up overthrow him before too long.

He was smart enough to let Ragnar take the blame for the broken alliance with Jarl Borg. His whole alliance with Ragnar against Jarl Borg in the first season was also well done.

Now of course he suffers from dumbness-by-association-with-the-protagonist, it's a common disease that afflicts a lot of characters in a TV-show.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I kinda feel bad for Jarl Borg. I know he cowardly attacked Ragnar's village - but still, that beating was just rough. It's all Horik's fault.

Agrees to allow Borg into their alliance ----> changes his mind ---> doesn't have the balls to tell Borg himself face-to-face ----> makes Ragnar do it ----> Uses Ragnar's village as a shield ----> wants Borg back. Dick moves all around.

I don't feel bad for Jarl Borg as he has put himself in the situation - with going after Ragnar and his family twice, once getting Rollo on his side against Ragnar, then going after not only Ragnar's village but his wife and young sons.... although I really don't think I want to see this blood eagle thing. :uhoh:

However, I do agree completely it's ultimately been Horik's 'fault' both times that Ragnar's family has been jeopardized and I feel he would be more deserving to receive the blood eagle torture thingy for being the instigating and manipulative prick who seems to get away with too much bullshit, compared with Borg who seems to be reacting more simply as a warrior.

And I never understood why he killed that random Anglo-Saxon that arrived with the bishop. Did he look at him the wrong way or something? Or is it 'cause Horik's simply an A-hole.

Horik felt ignored. The envoys were talking to Ragnar and not to him and that pissed Him off since he's the King and therefore senior in rank. He killed the envoynout of frustration and to assert his dominance.

That's not what I got from that scene at all. I thought it was because the guy was so very obviously trying to count how many men they had and how big their camp was and Horrik axed him for it.

I love how everyone can have completly different views of the same scene. It makes for great discussions!

I think it was a blend of both.

I could see how Horik was frustrated that he could not take dominance in the meeting and he hated feeling slighted. Maybe he needed to appease he anger by killing someone, but I still agree with cdawnb that he killed the man for a reason instead of just randomly.

Horik did notice the man counting and gathering information, but I think Horik was pissed he did it in such an obvious and blatant manner that Horik felt extremely insulted, so considering he was pissed already the guy had to die.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

He was smart enough to let Ragnar take the blame for the broken alliance with Jarl Borg. His whole alliance with Ragnar against Jarl Borg in the first season was also well done.

Now of course he suffers from dumbness-by-association-with-the-protagonist, it's a common disease that afflicts a lot of characters in a TV-show.

But that led to the whole Northumbria raid falling apart. If Horik doesn't cut Borg out of the raid (or hell, even doesn't have Ragnar personally deliver that news) Borg doesn't attack Ragnar's village, and the raid doesn't turn to shit. What did Horik gain from that manipulation?

[Winterfell is Burning]

But that led to the whole Northumbria raid falling apart. If Horik doesn't cut Borg out of the raid (or hell, even doesn't have Ragnar personally deliver that news) Borg doesn't attack Ragnar's village, and the raid doesn't turn to shit. What did Horik gain from that manipulation?

Exactly. Everything bad that happened this season was Horik's fault.

[paddington]

But that led to the whole Northumbria raid falling apart. If Horik doesn't cut Borg out of the raid (or hell, even doesn't have Ragnar personally deliver that news) Borg doesn't attack Ragnar's village, and the raid doesn't turn to shit. What did Horik gain from that manipulation?

2 ambitious men at each others throats. Horik would probably have enough men to raid and protect his own lands. Ragnar didn't and borg would know that well enough. For Horik he ends up with ethier one slighty more powerful enemy, or two weakend enemies.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 ambitious men at each others throats. Horik would probably have enough men to raid and protect his own lands. Ragnar didn't and borg would know that well enough. For Horik he ends up with ethier one slighty more powerful enemy, or two weakend enemies.

Which is a good strategm in a general sense, but in this specific instance it bites Horik on the ass severely. Not only does it end up fubaring the raid, it erodes any trust Ragnar had in him once he refuses to help liberate his village.

You can call Horik a manipulator, but he's got a long way to go before you can call him a master.

[paddington]

Yeah, I agree he is a little to obvious about his manipulating. I get the impression he is more about doing alot of random things, an then looking to exploit afterward. More than I think he has a cunning master plan.

The raid may not have mattered to him too much, he still gets the prestige of being one of the few to be raiding England, he also had a chance to cause problems for Ragnar.

[Grand Moff Mithrandir]

Can episode 7 come already. I can't wait to see where Lagertha's story is going.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Now of course he suffers from dumbness-by-association-with-the-protagonist, it's a common disease that afflicts a lot of characters in a TV-show.

I think Ragnar is pretty damn smart, really. The only truly dumb move I think he's made is ultimately choosing Princess Aslaug over Lagatha. And even that has its upside in that his children by her are considered royals. I suppose leaving Rollo with Jarl Borg was a bit shortsighted as well, but overall I think he's rather savvy.

[Zorral]

I think Ragnar is pretty damn smart, really. The only truly dumb move I think he's made is ultimately choosing Princess Aslaug over Lagatha. And even that has its upside in that his children by her are considered royals. I suppose leaving Rollo with Jarl Borg was a bit shortsighted as well, but overall I think he's rather savvy.

:agree: :cheers:

[AzureOwl]

Horik seems apt at playing the game of thrones ;) that's why he's still there.

Personally, I don't believe in that particular point of view since the Vikings didn't exactly do much to hide their numbers. They were camped out pretty much in the open. If someone wanted to assess their strength they could have done that easily. It doesn't seem worth it to kill a guy for.

It has more to do with how the scene was filmed. While Ragnar and the Bishop were talking they kept cutting to the Saxon who was completely ignoring the conversation and eyeballing the camp instead. And then they cut to Horik eyeballing the Saxon eyeballing the camp.

[cdawnb]

http://thetinyviking.tumblr.com

For all of the Athelstan fans out there. It's kind of a cute little blog.

[Veltigar]

I think Ragnar is pretty damn smart, really. The only truly dumb move I think he's made is ultimately choosing Princess Aslaug over Lagatha. And even that has its upside in that his children by her are considered royals. I suppose leaving Rollo with Jarl Borg was a bit shortsighted as well, but overall I think he's rather savvy.

? I was talking about Horik. Ragnar can't suffer from dumbness-by-association-with-the-protagonist since he is the protagonist.

[Paladin of Ice]

That's not what I got from that scene at all. I thought it was because the guy was so very obviously trying to count how many men they had and how big their camp was and Horrik axed him for it.

I love how everyone can have completly different views of the same scene. It makes for great discussions!

I always figured that Horik was trying to go back to striking fear in the English after Ragnar was being all reasonable. A sort of carrot and stick approach, although it was probably done with less deliberate thought than that implies and instead more of a "Fear us! We're so scary you'll be willing to do anything to give us what we want and make us stop!" sort of thing.

Oh, and also, pretty sure the guy who got the axe to the face was an attendant of the fat churchman.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

? I was talking about Horik. Ragnar can't suffer from dumbness-by-association-with-the-protagonist since he is the protagonist.

I misunderstood your post. I thought you were implying that Horik was dumb for following a stupid protagonist. Sorry.

[MisterOJ]

You guys should check out Joe Abercrombie's twitter feed today. Pretty priceless!