Jon Icefyre Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 I'd like to bring up a point to entertain a notion. I just (think I) had an epiphany of the whole "Was Rhaegar trying to fulfill the prophecy with Lyanna?". Up till now, I was of the opinion that yes, he had that in mind, he expected Jon to be a girl (Vysenia) etc, but... I now think that Rhaegar either already thought he had fulfilled the prophecy via Aegon or that he had given up on the prophecy for good. Martin's example of a lord who avoided a specific castle because of a prophecy only to end up being dead infront of an inn whose sign was said castle... Rhaegar was actively trying to fulfill a prophecy allright, but his true love fulfilled it for him in an unexpected way. I know that "there must be one more" and "the dragon has three heads" but what if Rhaegar didn't even try to impregnate Lyanna, it just happened, so he fulfilled it unintentionally. What do you guys think? Well I've never thought that Rhaegar 'intentionally' got Lyanna pregnant for the sake of completing the "three heads", I've always been under the notion that he was madly in love with Lyanna and obviously wanted to sleep with her from an attraction stand point. Now I'm sure he knew there was a possibility of her getting pregnant due to their sexual activities and if he did want a child with her, it was out of love, and not to fulfill the prophecy. Once Lyanna became pregnant however, I think it's certainly possible, if not probable, that Rhaegar then realized her pregnancy may have completed the prophecy, her love had erased from his mind prior. Which is partly why he then put so much emphasis on her and his unborn child's protection, aka Dayne, Whent, and Hightower.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 anyone intrigued by the blue rose in the first episode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Icefyre Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 anyone intrigued by the blue rose in the first episode? Ya pretty much everyone lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Ya pretty much everyone lol. :p Daario's description of it is very similar to the feeling Dany felt in the HOTU when she saw the rose, I think its another hint of Jon curing something in Dany's life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebyshov Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 :p Daario's description of it is very similar to the feeling Dany felt in the HOTU when she saw the rose, I think its another hint of Jon curing something in Dany's lifeIn HOTU she thought it filled the air with sweetness. Was it also referenced as having any healing connections? I may have missed that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 In HOTU she thought it filled the air with sweetness. Was it also referenced as having any healing connections? I may have missed that In the HOTU Dany obtains sweetness from the blue rose and in the GOT episode Daario said a blue rose heals which seems very similar, he also gives her anothe flower called harpy's gold which is poisonous and I think that represent's Hizdahr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 I'd like to bring up a point to entertain a notion. I just (think I) had an epiphany of the whole "Was Rhaegar trying to fulfill the prophecy with Lyanna?". Up till now, I was of the opinion that yes, he had that in mind, he expected Jon to be a girl (Vysenia) etc, but... I now think that Rhaegar either already thought he had fulfilled the prophecy via Aegon or that he had given up on the prophecy for good. Martin's example of a lord who avoided a specific castle because of a prophecy only to end up being dead infront of an inn whose sign was said castle... Rhaegar was actively trying to fulfill a prophecy allright, but his true love fulfilled it for him in an unexpected way. I know that "there must be one more" and "the dragon has three heads" but what if Rhaegar didn't even try to impregnate Lyanna, it just happened, so he fulfilled it unintentionally. What do you guys think? He was never trying to fulfill a prophesy with Lyanna. That is the point. For the first time in his life he lived rather than existed. People who try to manupulate tomorrow never end up with it. In the moment he actually loved and lived, getting his head out of the clouds, THEN prophesy was fulfilled. He gave the TOJ its name for a reason. People were hurt, but sometimes that is the reality as we never choose where we love. We are lucky today because we DO have choices, but even now, hearts are broken and we struggle with our fates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Icefyre Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Can anyone help me out and tell me how you use the spoiler tag, I've never really had to use it until now? I could just research it and find out, but the abundance of red wine has me feeling remarkably lazy at the moment lol. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Can anyone help me out and tell me how you use the spoiler tag, I've never really had to use it until now? I could just research it and find out, but the abundance of red wine has me feeling remarkably lazy at the moment lol. :lol: [spoiler ] text[/spoiler ] Without the spaces :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Icefyre Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 [spoiler ] text[/spoiler ] Without the spaces :) Thx! :) He was never trying to fulfill a prophesy with Lyanna. That is the point. For the first time in his life he lived rather than existed. People who try to manupulate tomorrow never end up with it. In the moment he actually loved and lived, getting his head out of the clouds, THEN prophesy was fulfilled. He gave the TOJ its name for a reason. People were hurt, but sometimes that is the reality as we never choose where we love. We are lucky today because we DO have choices, but even now, hearts are broken and we struggle with our fates. As usual I find my self agreeing with you completely! Btw the GF noticed the Oberyn line about Rhaegar, and said, "Wait Lyanna's the girl that Rhaegar left Elia for right, but didn't he take her by force?" Smh, I just nodded my head, thinking she is the warmest of summer children lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold Hands warm heart Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Would not Ser Barristan and for that matter Ser Jamie be aware of Rhaegar's situation ? It was their business. Ser Barristan is damn sure Danys is his Queen. I am new to this forum, perhaps this has been hashed out,or even explained. I have read some of the hundreds of pages regarding this subject but I need a break. It was while I was reading this subject and what the KG did and did not do and their vows that I thought would notthe Lord Commander have a fair idea of what went on around him and relay it to his staff so they could better perform their jobs ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Icefyre Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Would not Ser Barristan and for that matter Ser Jamie be aware of Rhaegar's situation ? It was their business. Ser Barristan is damn sure Danys is his Queen. I am new to this forum, perhaps this has been hashed out, or even explained. I have read some of the hundreds of pages regarding this subject but I need a break. It was while I was reading this subject and what the KG did and did not do and their vows that I thought would not the Lord Commander have a fair idea of what went on around him and relay it to his staff so they could better perform their jobs ? Ser Barristan was not the LC at the time of Robert's rebellion, Gerold Hightower was, and Jamie was still a pup just entering the KG. But regardless of that, it doesn't matter, because I'm pretty sure most ppl who were still alive during the time of the first GOT book, who aren't Robert, were well aware that the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship was a mutually loving one. Don't forget Ser Barristan's line about Rhaegar/Lyanna: "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna and thousands died for it." But the big thing is, they all think Lyanna wasn't pregnant and that she died without child. So to them the Rhaegar and Lyanna relationship was irrelevant as far as the line of succession goes, because they don't think Lyanna had a child. As far as the KG sharing the reality of Rhaegar's situation with the other KG brothers goes, yes the KG loved their brothers, but it seems like a few of them might've loved Rhaegar more(especially Dayne), so I'm assuming Rhaegar told the the KG(Hightower, Whent, Dayne) that were with he and Lyanna at the TOJ to keep the issue of Lyanna's pregnancy top secrete even from their other KG brothers, and I think that's exactly what they did out of loyalty to Rhaegar. By the time those three men, were up to date on the loss at the Trident(also Rhaegar's death), and the fall of KL, the KG are pretty much depleted and there wasn't really anyway the three at the TOJ could inform an injured Ser Barristan who they were really guarding at the TOJ(Rhagear's child), without the enemy(rebel army) finding out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Spoilered sweetness In the HOTU Dany obtains sweetness from the blue rose and in the GOT episode Daario said a blue rose heals which seems very similar, he also gives her anothe flower called harpy's gold which is poisonous and I think that represent's Hizdahr. Only sweetness and everything sweet in ASOIAF represents decay and rotten things under the surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Spoilered sweetness Only sweetness and everything sweet in ASOIAF represents decay and rotten things under the surface. Definitely not everything. When Cat or Ned refer to their children as sweet, they use it in the primary meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Definitely not everything. When Cat or Ned refer to their children as sweet, they use it in the primary meaning. Or when Varys describes Rhaenys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Definitely not everything. When Cat or Ned refer to their children as sweet, they use it in the primary meaning. Oh, I see you're right. There are lots of those, I only now realised that you tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Kings Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 promise me Ned that Jon will be raised as a Stark and not a Targ, promise me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Spoilered sweetness Only sweetness and everything sweet in ASOIAF represents decay and rotten things under the surface. Sweetness doesn't = negative, its used sarcastically by a few characters and then people on this forum have started to refer to it as sweet= negative. I am in English post graduate student and even went over it with one of my Professors and he didn't agree with it. The sweetness= negative theory just seems like an attempt made by fans to ignore textual evidence of Jon being a positive part in Dany's life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Arryn Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Definitely not everything. When Cat or Ned refer to their children as sweet, they use it in the primary meaning. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Sweetness doesn't = negative, its used sarcastically by a few characters and then people on this forum have started to refer to it as sweet= negative. I am in English post graduate student and even went over it with one of my Professors and he didn't agree with it. The sweetness= negative theory just seems like an attempt made by fans to ignore textual evidence of Jon being a positive part in Dany's life. Sweetness as a negative doesn't mean that sweetness is always a negative, but that you can't claim with any certainty that it's positive in the vision of the blue flower ... filling the air with sweetness, either. That was always the point of the analysis. It may have gone overboard with people claiming or believing that it always meant something bad, but that doesn't nullify the actual core argument. You and your professor say that it's a few people using it sarcastically, but that's the entire point. Why does GRRM repeatedly do that? It's not as if the claim was that "sweet" has a different meaning in GRRM's universe, but that it's being used ironically so often that it's suspicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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