R+L=J v.78

[juanml82]

So if this theory of R+L=J is true in the end, and I really hope it is. In what way would you like it to be delivered? I always imagined that Dany gets to Westeros and Jon is somehow in the fight against her, because she's still trying to conquer the iron throne. So when she sets the dragons to slay the "usurpers" they refuse to burn him and basically act "friendly" around him. Or even better Drogon tries to burn him but after the flames are gone, Jon is still there, maybe just his hair changes to silver :P Haha yeah this sounds kind of silly, but if this theory holds true I really want it to be sort of an epic reveal and not like one person (Howland?) telling Jon or someone else how it is.

The thing is that dragons killed Targaryens during the first Dance, so I guess that if Dany wants Drogo to burn Jon, Jon becomes barbecue.

Now, just maybe, one of the dragons can end up making its way North for some reason and just maybe Jon will have an easier time warging him than he should

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So if this theory of R+L=J is true in the end, and I really hope it is. In what way would you like it to be delivered? I always imagined that Dany gets to Westeros and Jon is somehow in the fight against her, because she's still trying to conquer the iron throne. So when she sets the dragons to slay the "usurpers" they refuse to burn him and basically act "friendly" around him. Or even better Drogon tries to burn him but after the flames are gone, Jon is still there, maybe just his hair changes to silver :P Haha yeah this sounds kind of silly, but if this theory holds true I really want it to be sort of an epic reveal and not like one person (Howland?) telling Jon or someone else how it is.

Targaryens are not fireproof!

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Targaryens are not fireproof!

...it's in the first post of the thread, and all of the series as I know them :-)

eta:

The thing is that dragons killed Targaryens during the first Dance, so I guess that if Dany wants Drogon to burn Jon, Jon becomes barbecue.

Wargacue you mean? Drogon just can't burn him, is what I think.

another eta: n and n

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

...it's in the first post of the thread, and all of the series as I know them :-)

eta:

Wargacue you mean? Drogo just can't burn him, is what I think.

Apparently, the person I responded to had not seen that :p

In addition, in the OP there's a small part that could use some modification: Rhaenyra was not "presumably" roasted by Sunfyre before she was eaten, we now know that she was in fact roasted by Sunfyre before she was eaten. Small difference, I know, but a difference nontheless :)

[Ghost's Shadow]

Why would Khal Drogo burn Jon? Is he going to come back from the dead, too?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Why would Khal Drogo burn Jon? Is he going to come back from the dead, too?

O no! The wights are also in Essos? Damn, no place is safe anymore :p

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Wait for Frodon, son of Drogon...

[MtnLion]

I disagree. It looks like tragic irony to me.

Due to the third person limited POV structure of the series, Dany thinking or perceiving something falls under the "communicates" part of the definition.

It is not recognized by the audience. It is not tragic irony.

[Han Snow]

You say that as if her being deliberately evil is necessary for her to be an antagonist.

Sure, she could be an unknowing antagonist, but I really, really doubt that. If after (I'm presuming here how the plot is going to play out) the DWD 2.0 and taking care of Aegon "The Mummers dragon" she is still as uninformed about her family's history and her father, and still making stupid decisions like she did when she was 15, then I would seriously start doubting GRRM as a brilliant writer. She has to evolve, change, grow up. And no matter how many different possible scenarios I play in my head with her as an active, deliberate antagonist I just can't picture even a single good one (of course one that presumes she and Jon actually meet per HOTU vision), where she of her own will goes against Jon knowing or not knowing his heritage and is seen by us the audience as the bad guy. Only way I could see them going against each other is if Jon is the bad guy and not on the side of humanity anymore.

Actually I see the sweetness as a negative in that Jon, having his parentage being covered up all his life, may end up breaking Dany's resolve when he reveals the truth that he was the rightful heir, and that her effort was all for nothing. This event may make her more depressed and when she dies, she may be even more lonely, as her supporters has abandoned her for another, more viable option.

Again, if GRRM writes the story in such a way that Dany's resolve is broken just by the truth behind Jon's parentage and that it suddenly means all her effort was for nothing, I would seriously doubt his skill as a writer, which I don't, and am 100% sure that I ever will. This scenario would be far beneath even a lesser writer.

No. One of the more realistic predictions for the bittersweet ending of the saga is the one where Jon and Dany meet and fall in love, fight the good fight and then either one or both of them die. Call it cliche or stupid or whatever, but if GRRM wants it, then it will be believable and it will be powerful. This blue (dusk=darkest stage of twilight=black=Jon) rose which heals the fever is quite a decent hint the show has given us towards such a possibility, maybe not a romantic one, but amiable for sure.

[Alia of the knife]

Sure, she could be an unknowing antagonist, but I really, really doubt that. If after (I'm presuming here how the plot is going to play out) the DWD 2.0 and taking care of Aegon "The Mummers dragon" she is still as uninformed about her family's history and her father, and still making stupid decisions like she did when she was 15, then I would seriously start doubting GRRM as a brilliant writer. She has to evolve, change, grow up. And no matter how many different possible scenarios I play in my head with her as an active, deliberate antagonist I just can't picture even a single good one (of course one that presumes she and Jon actually meet per HOTU vision), where she of her own will goes against Jon knowing or not knowing his heritage and is seen by us the audience as the bad guy. Only way I could see them going against each other is if Jon is the bad guy and not on the side of humanity anymore.

Again, if GRRM writes the story in such a way that Dany's resolve is broken just by the truth behind Jon's parentage and that it suddenly means all her effort was for nothing, I would seriously doubt his skill as a writer, which I don't, and am 100% sure that I ever will. This scenario would be far beneath even a lesser writer.

No. One of the more realistic predictions for the bittersweet ending of the saga is the one where Jon and Dany meet and fall in love, fight the good fight and then either one or both of them die. Call it cliche or stupid or whatever, but if GRRM wants it, then it will be believable and it will be powerful. This blue (dusk=darkest stage of twilight=black=Jon) rose which heals the fever is quite a decent hint the show has given us towards such a possibility, maybe not a romantic one, but amiable for sure.

I could imagine both of them dying, mirroring Rhaegar and Lyanna, or actually living the life that Rhaegar and Lyanna never got to have, which is bittersweet in its own way.

[Lyse Stark]

Sure, she could be an unknowing antagonist, but I really, really doubt that. If after (I'm presuming here how the plot is going to play out) the DWD 2.0 and taking care of Aegon "The Mummers dragon" she is still as uninformed about her family's history and her father, and still making stupid decisions like she did when she was 15, then I would seriously start doubting GRRM as a brilliant writer. She has to evolve, change, grow up. And no matter how many different possible scenarios I play in my head with her as an active, deliberate antagonist I just can't picture even a single good one (of course one that presumes she and Jon actually meet per HOTU vision), where she of her own will goes against Jon knowing or not knowing his heritage and is seen by us the audience as the bad guy. Only way I could see them going against each other is if Jon is the bad guy and not on the side of humanity anymore.

Again, if GRRM writes the story in such a way that Dany's resolve is broken just by the truth behind Jon's parentage and that it suddenly means all her effort was for nothing, I would seriously doubt his skill as a writer, which I don't, and am 100% sure that I ever will. This scenario would be far beneath even a lesser writer.

No. One of the more realistic predictions for the bittersweet ending of the saga is the one where Jon and Dany meet and fall in love, fight the good fight and then either one or both of them die. Call it cliche or stupid or whatever, but if GRRM wants it, then it will be believable and it will be powerful. This blue (dusk=darkest stage of twilight=black=Jon) rose which heals the fever is quite a decent hint the show has given us towards such a possibility, maybe not a romantic one, but amiable for sure.

Sorry to burst your bubble but GRRM don't do stuff like yours. I believe that the sweetness in the TV show may prove to be a double-edged one. On one hands, it heals, but for Dany it is a omen of death. So in breaking her ego and her "fever" Jon may also indirectly break her resolve when the truth comes out. She will fall in a deep depression at the revelation that she isn't the true heir to the throne, and the childbirth aspect will ultimately kill a weakened Dany.

[bpdizzle]

Question:

Ned is keeping a secret. Howland Reed, Arthur & Ashara Dayne are potentially in on it.

There is a huge interest in keeping the secret safe and keeping Jon close by and protected.

How come when he goes to the Wall, no one is keeping an eye on him, especially when he is stabbed?

Thanks for any thoughts.

[Lyse Stark]

Question:

Ned is keeping a secret. Howland Reed, Arthur & Ashara Dayne are potentially in on it.

There is a huge interest in keeping the secret safe and keeping Jon close by and protected.

How come when he goes to the Wall, no one is keeping an eye on him, especially when he is stabbed?

Thanks for any thoughts.

I think Bloodraven has a vested interest in Jon, and he probably is watching him from the Weirwood network. We all know that Brynden Rivers was a Targ loyalist so I wouldn't be surprised if he knew that Jon was trueborn.

[DrunkSister]

Why on earth's name would his hair need to turn to silver? He's a Stark.

For jon conga to havel

- I am actually going to leave that there just so you know what my phone is doing to me. Hair changing color dramatically due to character development is a common trope. I don't think GRRM will be that cheesy, he already did it with Cat.

As for why it'd be cool, Jon would look more like daddy, and Jon cone (aaargh) Con would have a heart attack. Lol

[The guy from the Vale]

Question:

Ned is keeping a secret. Howland Reed, Arthur & Ashara Dayne are potentially in on it.

There is a huge interest in keeping the secret safe and keeping Jon close by and protected.

How come when he goes to the Wall, no one is keeping an eye on him, especially when he is stabbed?

Thanks for any thoughts.

I guess Benjen was supposed to keep an eye on Jon on the Wall.

I also think Ned never intended for Jon to actually act on his claim, so keeping Jon close by and protected was only a secondary interest.

[Han Snow]

Sorry to burst your bubble but GRRM don't do stuff like yours. I believe that the sweetness in the TV show may prove to be a double-edged one. On one hands, it heals, but for Dany it is a omen of death. So in breaking her ego and her "fever" Jon may also indirectly break her resolve when the truth comes out. She will fall in a deep depression at the revelation that she isn't the true heir to the throne, and the childbirth aspect will ultimately kill a weakened Dany.

You can't burst my bubble because I don't have one. The only real expectation I have of GRRM and this story is that it is good. I'm completely willing to accept all and every plot course imaginable if the story remains as good as it was in the first 5 books. Be it Dany turning evil, Tommen ruling in the end or whatever. As long as it's logical and nicely written. Now, as to how high I hold my speculations for them to be actually possible!? I'd say as much as the next guy on a board full of theories. I try to use my best judgement and the text to predict stuff, but am completely aware that I know nothing until the books are out. Now, can you say the same for your own notions and expectations? You seem pretty set in stone that Dany will suffer because of Jon, something that is not even vaguely implied in the text outside of the term sweet, which again can be used both in positive and negative context in Dany's chapters.

[Lyse Stark]

You can't burst my bubble because I don't have one. The only real expectation I have of GRRM and this story is that it is good. I'm completely willing to accept all and every plot course imaginable if the story remains as good as it was in the first 5 books. Be it Dany turning evil, Tommen ruling in the end or whatever. As long as it's logical and nicely written. Now, as to how high I hold my speculations for them to be actually possible!? I'd say as much as the next guy on a board full of theories. I try to use my best judgement and the text to predict stuff, but am completely aware that I know nothing until the books are out. Now, can you say the same for your own notions and expectations? You seem pretty set in stone that Dany will suffer because of Jon, something that is not even vaguely implied in the text outside of the term sweet, which again can be used both in positive and in negative context in Dany's chapters.

You forget that in Dany's arc, sweetness is a negative. It is often used to mask lies,poison and death. And the point I am raising is that the lies that protected Jon when he was growing up may also forebode ill for Dany when the truth is revealed.

A stone turned under her(Dany's) foot. She stumbled to one knee, and cried out in pain.

This is very strong foreshadowing of a reveal of R+L=J, and the cry of pain that Dany give out may indicates that she isn't going to take the news well.

She may be forced to kneel to Jon, especially if he proves to her his heritage by warging one of her dragons.

[shk12344]

Question:

Ned is keeping a secret. Howland Reed, Arthur & Ashara Dayne are potentially in on it.

There is a huge interest in keeping the secret safe and keeping Jon close by and protected.

How come when he goes to the Wall, no one is keeping an eye on him, especially when he is stabbed?

Thanks for any thoughts.

There is no "huge interest in keeping the secret". It's just Ned and Howland Reed who we know for certain what truly happened in Tower of Joy and who the true parents of Jon are. Everything else is pure speculation on readers part.

Ned never talked to anyone about Jon's real parents and Howland Reed is a recluse who never ventures outside home. That was the extent of "keeping the secret safe and keeping Jon close by and protected"

[MtnLion]

There is no "huge interest in keeping the secret". It's just Ned and Howland Reed who we know for certain what truly happened in Tower of Joy and who the true parents of Jon are. Everything else is pure speculation on readers part.

Ned never talked to anyone about Jon's real parents and Howland Reed is a recluse who never ventures outside home. That was the extent of "keeping the secret safe and keeping Jon close by and protected"

There is one more, at least, since "they found Ned holding Lyanna's hand."

[Ghost's Shadow]

Is it just me, or is this site getting uglier by the day?

Edit: not referring to this thread, but they're at it again in the main: Lyanna should have known thousands were going to die, shippers stink, GNC is crap, etc. All not true, of course. :lol: