Oberyn & Tyrion discussion re Rhaegar & Elia [Book Spoilers]

[Dilshan Muthalib]

It has been a while since I last read the books and my memory of the conversation between Prince Oberyn and Tyrion is failing me. In this episode when they are talking to each other and when Oberyn brings up his sisters wedding he mentions about her husband prince Rhaegar leaving Elia for another girl, is this the first hint we are given that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna or am I reading too much into it.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

is this the first hint we are given that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna

The only one who claims it was a kidnapping was Robert. It isn't the first hint.

[shiola]

The only one who claims it was a kidnapping was Robert. It isn't the first hint.

When Osha takes Bran into the crypts in season 1, I think Bran says that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

When Osha takes Bran into the crypts in season 1, I think Bran says that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.

Ahhh yep, my apologies...

But there were (in the books) numerous times when it was made clear that that 'kidnapping' was a Robert misinterpretation of what occurred. It was made clear that Lyanna did not want to marry Robert and had an interest in Rhaegar. 'Eloping' was made clear to be an option.

[Tobin]

All of the sources in this are unreliable: Robert because of jealousy, Ned because of grief, Oberyn because of familial pride.

'Kidnapped' is the official story since Robert was the King and therefore the accepted final word on the subject.

There are a few other incidents where it is mentioned, but most of those are directly in relation with Robert's view of events and would fall under the 'kidnapping' label.

I don't remember Ned ever saying specifically that she was kidnapped, but then it has been several years since I've reread everything.

It would have been very possible Oberyn to get a first-hand account from his sister by raven - there is plenty of time elapsed between the 'kidnapping' and the sack of Kings Landing when Elia was murdered.

It hadn't occurred to me before, but the Martells are the only family left that could have proof of what actually happened aside from Howland Reed.

[Bratchild]

I believe Ned told good ole' 'bobbert that he had, 'revenged Lyanna on the Trident."

Or words to that effect.

[Envie]

It's all about perspective. To one side (Starks / Baratheons) it was kidnapping, but to the other (Martells) it was cheating and abandonment against Elia what Rhaegar did with Lyanna. That's always been one of the biggest unsolved mysteries as well as whether or not Jon Snow might be a product of that rape/love affair between them or not. Rumors during the war were common for everything and of course Oberyn hears and remembers it the way he wants to for his personal vendetta reasons - especially the parts about Elia being raped by Clegane and the children being killed so ruthlessly. Those are generally accepted to be true accounts but again, it's perspective just how graphic or horrific it really was based on which version you hear from which side of the war.

[ground_control]

It has been a while since I last read the books and my memory of the conversation between Prince Oberyn and Tyrion is failing me. In this episode when they are talking to each other and when Oberyn brings up his sisters wedding he mentions about her husband prince Rhaegar leaving Elia for another girl, is this the first hint we are given that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna or am I reading too much into it.

Oberyn doesn't say anything about Lyanna's perspective -- whether she went voluntarily with Rhaegar, or whether he kidnapped her is pretty irrelevant to Oberyn's message. Also, he doesn't seem to be blaming the Starks for anything, so I'd say it's more likely that he's not implying that it wasn't a kidnapping.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

OP, in show we barely had any kind of Rhaegar+Lyanna clues, only vague mentions of Lyanna being Ned's sister and being kidnapped and raped by R (said by Robert) and Rhaegar being Dany's brother. If (and I mean IF) there is anything that we should know, I think they're just starting to give hints.

In books, only Robert says she was kidnapped and raped. Everybody else implies in a way they run away together and even that he loved her. The app says Rhaegar died with her name on his lips. Oberyn, in books, says nothing negative about Rhaegar or Elia being in love with him.

So, you're not reading too much into it. They're simply starting to give us all the hints and references they didn't during the past 3 seasons.

[Warg Arry]

We also get Jorah giving Dany an account of Rhaegar being a stand up guy in season 1 (I just re-watch season one. I think Selmy might have later added to a positive view of R but I might just be remembering the books here.) Which conflicts with Roberts POV about Rhaegar.

And although it's not a R+L direct clue it is still a layered in message.

Just like Ned's honour and Robert making a remark about how rare this "wench" was to make Ned Stark forget his honour.

It's all very subtly being layered in. Which impresses me. But also I worry that those clues will be lost on a viewer who is having trouble remembering who is who.

[Black Wolf Smith]

I think there would be little different from Rhaegar running off w/ another women and kidnapping said women, in Oberyn mind as either case he left his sister because of her.

There has really been a lack of mention of any resent history thru out the GOT series. It may well be that GRRM doesn't want the show to show too much.

[Lady Winter Rose]

I like when producers added that Elia was so fond of her children that she breastfeed them herself, which was unusual. That was nice detail.

[Glasgowchivas]

Something I mentioned in the other thread, might be more appropriate here:

One thing I wanted to talk about; Oberyn's tale of Ellia's death. He tells Tyrion that he'd heard rumour that The Mountain had raped her and then split her in half with his greatsword, which we know is different from the books as he kills her by smashing her face in with his mailed gauntlets - which is also how he dispatches Oberyn eventually in a horrible bit of history repeating itself. However, I'm now wondering if Oberyn's death in the show will be changed to mirror the death of Ellia in the show and he'll be sliced in two by Gregor's sword.

On one hand I hope not because the way he dies in the book is horrific, especially as The Mountain is "confessing" all the while but on the other, a sudden "shock" death blow, one that cleaves him in two, will be more cinematic, have more emphasis and I can really see it working, especially when the show will really build up that this is a matter of life and death for show favourite Tyrion. Will be intersting to see how the show runners handle it.

[Chebyshov]

Something I mentioned in the other thread, might be more appropriate here:

Very possible they change that, although The Hound dispatching of that one guy in the tavern scene by grabbing his face and smashing it into the sword I thought may have been foreshadowing. In fact, I thought The Hound was going to do exactly what The Mountain does to Oberyn, but I suppose he's not a strong as his brother.

[ambi76]

Another wedding. My sister Elia and Rhaegar Targaryen, the Last Dragon. My sister loved him. She bore his children. Swaddled them, rocked them, fed them at her own breast. Elia wouldn’t let the wet nurse touch them. And beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her for another woman. That started a war. And my sister, you know what they did to her?

Okay, I think I've probably become as paranoid as Cersei, but could this be a big Aegon is FAegon hint right there. Wasn't Vary's whole baby-swap story hanging on getting Replacement!Aegon from his wet nurse? :idea:

[Chebyshov]

Another wedding. My sister Elia and Rhaegar Targaryen, the Last Dragon. My sister loved him. She bore his children. Swaddled them, rocked them, fed them at her own breast. Elia wouldn’t let the wet nurse touch them. And beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her for another woman. That started a war. And my sister, you know what they did to her?

Okay, I think I've probably become as paranoid as Cersei, but could this be a big Aegon is FAegon hint right there. Wasn't Vary's whole baby-swap story hanging on getting Replacement!Aegon from his wet nurse? :idea:

Well, you could also read that as Elia being so loving and protective of her kids that she'd go to any length to keep them safe. A wet nurse was never mentioned with the baby-swap.

However, I had a similar thought to you, but for different reasons. If the baby-swapped truly happened, and Elia was such a protective mother, why wouldn't she go to her daughter, hiding under Rhaegar's bed, instead of staying with a swapped baby. Granted we don't know how much time she had to react, but it's possible they are starting to plant seeds of doubt here.

Will be interesting if Varys or Illyrio brings up a wet nurse in the show.

['96Buck]

When Osha takes Bran into the crypts in season 1, I think Bran says that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna.

Bran only knows what Ned has told him, and Ned isn't going to tell a young child a story different than the king's version, even if he knows different.

[Dilshan Muthalib]

I could be reading too much into this of course. My theory was that whatever happened to Lyanna there was no need for dornish to spin the story, I suspect Elia would have had enough time to communicate with Dorn and inform them of what really was going on and they might know more then we think. Elia,I suspect would have kept her family well informed on the situation re Lyanna hence I thought the use of words was interesting. But than GRRM has kind of got us looking for clue's in every word and I might as well be reading too much into it.

[Sand11751]

Oberyn is so sentimental about his sister, I wonder how much he was privy to about her real relationship with Rhaegar. If Elia related any feelings to Oberyn, it's still likely he would just feel insulted as a brother that his brother in-law effectively abandoned Elia, his beloved sister, to be raped and die cruelly regardless of whatever high-minded reason Rhaegar came up with.

I keep coming back to the fact that Elia was so weak after she gave birth to Rhaenys and nearly died pushing out Aegon, to thinking of that scene Dany witnessed in HotU. "The dragon has three heads. There must be one more.." Elia knows she can't give Rhaegar children again. Also, the Dornish are rather...free with their sexuality, very uninhibited. I can imagine an Elia, who recognizing that she can't help Rhaegar fulfill his wish gives her tacit permission to a relationship with Lyanna; maybe Elia's love and Dornish upbringing transcended natural tendencies toward jealousy?

[Le Cygne]

I don't think we can go by show Oberyn. I hate the thought of the show spoiling the books.