Oberyn & Tyrion discussion re Rhaegar & Elia [Book Spoilers]

[Skeksi]

I keep coming back to the fact that Elia was so weak after she gave birth to Rhaenys and nearly died pushing out Aegon, to thinking of that scene Dany witnessed in HotU. "The dragon has three heads. There must be one more.." Elia knows she can't give Rhaegar children again. Also, the Dornish are rather...free with their sexuality, very uninhibited. I can imagine an Elia, who recognizing that she can't help Rhaegar fulfill his wish gives her tacit permission to a relationship with Lyanna; maybe Elia's love and Dornish upbringing transcended natural tendencies toward jealousy?

I've heard this argument a lot, but I'm still somewhat doubtful that this is the case with Dornish people to the extent that it's often made out to be. Oberyn has many bastards, yes, but he has never married, and is therefore, in a more open society like Dorne, free to sleep with whoever he wants. He and Ellaria have been "together" for over 10 years, she is the mother of all of his youngest children, and whilst they do take other people into their bed, it does seem to be "in their bed", very much a mutual thing for them both. Arianne sleeps with Arys Oakheart, and has slept with others before him, but again, she isn't married, there is no legal obligation for her to remain celibate. That's the thing- we see a lot of unmarried Dornish people with no real legal ties sleeping together, we see that they have a much more inclusive attitude towards bastards, but do we see any indication of a married lord or lady openly keeping another lover? It may be that I have missed it, so please feel free to point it out if I have. But I think that not caring whether your spouse is a virgin when you marry them is the same as consenting to your husband to run off with another highborn woman, and have her bear his children, who may threaten your own children's claim. This isn't the same as having sex when you're not married, it's not even the same as having a quiet, private affair with someone else when you are married. It is a very public snub to his wife, or that is the way that everyone- the Dornish included- seem to see it. So either Elia has reasons to consent, and bear the shame for the greater good, or she wasn't consulted/ was ignored.

I'm not saying Elia definitely didn't consent to it. But I think the arguments used are somewhat shaky. Maybe if we see some convincing evidence that ELIA believed in the prophecy that Rhaegar spoke of, that might be a reason.

If anything, I think Oberyn's wording is likely a hint that Rhaegar and Lyanna ran off together willingly, rather than Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna (otherwise he could have worded it to make Rhaegar come off even worse "By kidnapping a girl not yet of age and raping her repeatedly", maybe?)- it's not something that has been referenced a lot since series 1, but it serves as a reminder to the viewers of what led to Rhaegar's death, and hints that it was not entirely as Robert tells it. I mean, you could argue that as Robert is biased to believe that Lyanna was taken against her will, and focus on that side of the story, Oberyn's focus will be on the wrongs done to his sister, and not whether Rhaegar also did any wrong to Lyanna Stark. But it's a different interpretation, one we haven't seen a lot of in the show, though it was definitely hinted at in the books.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't think we can go by show Oberyn.

I think he repeats what everybody knows. That Rhaegar "left" Elia for another woman, either he actually loved Lyanna or he kidnapped and raped her, he abandoned her with the children and left. If Elia didn't know about the prophecy and such, that's why she could have thought and if she knew, I doubt she would tell his brother "yeah, but don't worry, she's just conceiving another Dragon head, he'll be back".

In show, we have many perspectives as much is in books

Robert -> kidnapping/raping. Like books

Bran -> kidnapping. In books, can't remember.

Jorah -> talks about Rhaegar in a positive light. Like books.

Barristan -> ditto. ditto.

Oberyn -> "He left my sister for another woman". In books he says nothing.

I hate the thought of the show spoiling the books.

I don't think they're spoiling RLJ, simply putting clues to confirm, deny or confuse the audience as much as we readers are by RLJ (as you can see, not everybody believe the theory and their evidences to disprove it, are in some cases, convincing or at least, well elaborated), and I'm sure many Unsullied are yet clueless about it and aren't yet able to put 2 and 2 together because they can't understand all the clues yet, for instance, the blue rose.

Either way, when I return home (I kinda away now), I'll ask my twitter feed what they think, what they can do (I have a lot of followers and I think 60% are Unsullied).

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

Well either way you look at it, he did run off and leave Ellia. whether lyanna went willingly or not is up for debate.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I just asked an Unsullied friend about the subject. He's quite into GoT show and completely unspoiled. I asked him what did he think about Rhaegar, what did he thing about Rhaegar AFTER Oberyn said he run away with another woman and who he thought was that woman.

He answered me: 1. Fierce but noble, 2 "nothing, he's a manwhore who fucks everything so, it makes sense he's now with a woman who understand that". 3. Dunno, the Red Witch?. I explained him that it in #2, it was Rhaegar who had left Elia for another woman and he said "maybe Oberyn's sister was as crazy as he was".

So, yes. Those Unsullied who simply enjoy the show and don't actually theorize nor think hard and deeply about the storylines apparently aren't yet caught any clue. Their virginity about RLJ is completely intact.

[Misnthropia]

So, yes. Those Unsullied who simply enjoy the show and don't actually theorize nor think hard and deeply about the storylines apparently aren't yet caught any clue. Their virginity about RLJ is completely intact.

Ive got a few non book reader friends and they picked up that Dany was Oberyns sister in law and asked me if the Dornish would fight for her or even knew she was alive. I didnt want to add in the whole Aegon thing so I simply asked about Rhaegar.

I was as vague as I could be to the whole R+L thing but as above, they had no idea and didnt even mention it.

I think this was meant for the readers and the show viewers who want to search for more.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

This has probably been asked before, but did the Lannisters officially make peace with Dorne after Robert`s Rebellion? If not, why did Tyrion send Myrcella to Dorne?

[Chebyshov]

This has probably been asked before, but did the Lannisters officially make peace with Dorne after Robert`s Rebellion? If not, why did Tyrion send Myrcella to Dorne?

I think Jon Arryn made peace with Doran after the rebellion, and then Tyrion sending Myrcella to Dorne was the way of getting their "support" for the War of the Five Kings. Obviously Doran had different reasons for accepting this, and a different strategy in mind, but I doubt Tyrion would have proposed it at all if things were still unsettled.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

I think Jon Arryn made peace with Doran after the rebellion, and then Tyrion sending Myrcella to Dorne was the way of getting their "support" for the War of the Five Kings. Obviously Doran had different reasons for accepting this, and a different strategy in mind, but I doubt Tyrion would have proposed it at all if things were still unsettled.

Right, didn`t Arryn go to Dorne himself to deliver something?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Arryn took Prince Lewyn's body to Sunspear. Tywin tell that to Tyrion but he doesn't say if he took Elia's body, or the children's. Also apologies, I'm sure. But that's like nothing, really: "We sorry Tywin Lannister's men raped and killed your sister. BTW, we're marrying his daughter to the King". Robert never went there, either.

[juanml82]

IIRC, in the books it's mentioned that the Dornish were in the brink of revolt after Robert's Rebellion, Jon Arryn travelled there and, after meeting Doran, everything was (tensely) settled. Most likely, Jon Arryn threatened to sack Dorne from the sea, Ironborn style (and maybe with the Ironborns) and Doran backed down.

As for Rhaegar and Lyanna, while it's generally accepted in this forum that they've run together, the fact that Rhaegar loved her doesn't preclude Rhaegar kidnapping her.

[Chebyshov]

As for Rhaegar and Lyanna, while it's generally accepted in this forum that they've run together, the fact that Rhaegar loved her doesn't preclude Rhaegar kidnapping her.

Very true...based on how her personality was described in the books, I'd guess it wasn't a kidnapping, but we'll have to keep a sharp eye out to see how the show continues to drop these clues.

[roxWolfox]

I like when producers added that Elia was so fond of her children that she breastfeed them herself, which was unusual. That was nice detail.

My take on this was that they excluded Elia and Oberyn's visit to Casterly Rock where she 'coo'ed over baby Tyrion, and they had to introduce Elia's maternal instincts somehow.

In the end, I think the link will be made when Oberyn meets Tyrion's bride. He'll hear she's a Stark, and will share some family history with her. He's just that OTT, in my eyes. I can't wait for Sunday! (checks calendar). xD

[tsarrast]

The show all but confirmed R+L=J theory imo in Ep1 of Season 4 that just came out last sunday, Oberyn says that Rheagar ran off with another woman. This can only be Lyanna - and the show is obviously laying the groundwork for this reveal.

Additionally Martin rarely does things for no reason. If Rheagar went off with Lyanna and nothing became of it - no children, no Jon Snow - then why wrap it in secrecy? why all the hints? there's obviously something major happening here.

I realize show /= books ... but Martin works with the shows producers, writes one episode each year, etc... and one of the ways they got the show in the first place was apparently guessing correctly who Jon Snow's parents are... so I think this new episode basically confirms this theory by now providing confirmation from Oberyn's perspective that Rhaegar did in fact elope with another woman.

Anyone denying R+L=J at this point is delusional.

I realize it's only my second post - but I've been lurking on here for a while... love this site!

[King Tam Stark]

Another wedding. My sister Elia and Rhaegar Targaryen, the Last Dragon. My sister loved him. She bore his children. Swaddled them, rocked them, fed them at her own breast. Elia wouldn’t let the wet nurse touch them. And beautiful, noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her for another woman. That started a war. And my sister, you know what they did to her?

Okay, I think I've probably become as paranoid as Cersei, but could this be a big Aegon is FAegon hint right there. Wasn't Vary's whole baby-swap story hanging on getting Replacement!Aegon from his wet nurse? :idea:

thats one one way to look at it the other being she couldn't risk letting the wet nurse recognise it wasn't the real baby

[iknownothingjonsnow]

The show all but confirmed R+L=J theory imo in Ep1 of Season 4 that just came out last sunday, Oberyn says that Rheagar ran off with another woman. This can only be Lyanna - and the show is obviously laying the groundwork for this reveal.

Additionally Martin rarely does things for no reason. If Rheagar went off with Lyanna and nothing became of it - no children, no Jon Snow - then why wrap it in secrecy? why all the hints? there's obviously something major happening here.

I realize show /= books ... but Martin works with the shows producers, writes one episode each year, etc... and one of the ways they got the show in the first place was apparently guessing correctly who Jon Snow's parents are... so I think this new episode basically confirms this theory by now providing confirmation from Oberyn's perspective that Rhaegar did in fact elope with another woman.

Anyone denying R+L=J at this point is delusional.

I realize it's only my second post - but I've been lurking on here for a while... love this site!

Welcome!

Personally, I think that anyone who thinks this story has a happy ending is delusional (not to say R+L=J is necessarily one).

For the record, D&D "passed the Wonka test." I'm not aware that anyone has ever confirmed that they correctly guessed Jon Snow's parents.

Also for the record, Oberyn said that Rhaegar left his sister for another woman, not that he ran off with another woman. He gave no clarity as to whether the 'other woman' was a willing participant in anything that happened following.

After having this same discussion on another thread (http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/106798-things-the-viewing-unsullied-are-missing-book-spoilers/?p=5625752) I'm surprised at how many book readers heard what they wanted to hear out of words which Oberyn never actually said.

[GHOSTSTARK]

It has been a while since I last read the books and my memory of the conversation between Prince Oberyn and Tyrion is failing me. In this episode when they are talking to each other and when Oberyn brings up his sisters wedding he mentions about her husband prince Rhaegar leaving Elia for another girl, is this the first hint we are given that Rhaegar did not kidnap Lyanna or am I reading too much into it.

yea only Robert thinks of her as being kidnapped and raped. many others believe they just ran off together. i like how they gave that little background there between Tyrion and Oberyn. besides Robert and Ned talking about it in i think S1E2 we dont really hear much after that about their story which caused that rebellion

[tsarrast]

iknownothingjohnsnow - whether she ran off willingly or was kidnapped isn't that important... what is important is simply that rhaegar left with another woman. At this point it's near certain that this woman is Lyanna Stark. Given that they were together - that Robert think he kidnapped her - and that's why Brandon & father went to King's Landing, were executed, etc... it'd be just terrible story telling to have this "mystery woman" be anyone other than Lyanna at this point.

Her willingness to participate is not really the point - the fact that Oberyn is discussing this independently is further confirmation of the event... and the way he says it strongly implies that from his point of view Rhaegar went off as part of a willing relationship... and even the method they are dropping these clues on the show is pointing towards a later future reveal.

I've also watched a number of interviews ... and I think it's implied that D&D correctly guessed who it was - although you are correct not confirmed... but the fact that GRRM asked them that question specifically, and then later decided to do the show with them... and that they specifically bring that question up when discussing that first interview with GRRM... add it all together and I think they probably got the answer right.

As a gambling man (I play poker for a living) ... i think it's over 90% that R+L=J ... and I'd be willing to lay 8:1 on it.

[Le Cygne]

<snip>

Ned said he didn't think Robert ever really knew Lyanna. It's what they don't say that matters. If they thought Rhaegar did this horrible thing, then why don't they mention it. The worst Oberyn said is, he left for another woman (that's always used to refer to a mutual relationship). And Ned is saying, you are delusional.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ned said he didn't think Robert ever really knew Lyanna. It's what they don't say that matters. If they thought Rhaegar did this horrible thing, then why don't they mention it. The worst Oberyn said is, he left for another woman (that's always used to refer to a mutual relationship). And Ned is saying, you are delusional.

Well, it's the only thing Robert holds to, his memory of hers. Considering his marriage is a failure, he only can dream that Rhaegar took her away from him and ruined his life instead of accepting the chance of her escaping away from him because she didn't like him. "Me? How couldn' she love me! Every whore loves me!".

[Le Cygne]

Well, it's the only thing Robert holds to, his memory of hers. Considering his marriage is a failure, he only can dream that Rhaegar took her away from him and ruined his life instead of accepting the chance of her escaping away from him because she didn't like him. "Me? How couldn' she love me! Every whore loves me!".

Well, at least Ned and Robert had each other. Nedbert.