Tansy

[paulh_85]

Another question from me about ASOS, when Hoster Tully is on his death bed he mentions a woman called Tansy, weather mistaking Catelyn for this woman or just plain delirious im not sure.

Anyway, in one of the Arya chapters (think its the one where the Mad Huntsman has captured the Hound) the woman who runs the inn is also called Tansy.

not specifically looking for spoilers, just wondering if there is anything too this, is there any more story to be had from something Hoster Tully did in the past? or merely coincedence?

[TheReal_Rebel]

Only in so far as Tansy is what Hoster apparently called Lysa. You might want to do a search on Tansy in the forums and many previous discussions should come up :-)

[paulh_85]

Only in so far as Tansy is what Hoster apparently called Lysa. You might want to do a search on Tansy in the forums and many previous discussions should come up :-)

ok, shall have a look :)

[TheReal_Rebel]

Oh and use the advanced search. It's the gear symbol next to the search so you can limit to forum titles.

[paulh_85]

Thanks!

ive read a little about it now, i would be disappointed if it was just a red herring, her chapter was so soon after the Hoster Tully tansy rant that i thought the two must be connected, however, as usual the good people of this forum point out every little detail and the abortion story seems plausible.

[Hippocras]

I think it is pretty settled now that Hoster was not talking about a person, but abut tansy tea, which causes abortions.

[paulh_85]

I think it is pretty settled now that Hoster was not talking about a person, but abut tansy tea, which causes abortions.

thanks, im sort of half involved with spoiler threads, but half hearted because i dont want to read to much. The negative with this is that i dont take much in.

I find it impossible to analyse everything from the books in the detail that some people on here do, thats why i like this place so much i guess.

[Hippocras]

No worries.

Catelyn did not think of this at first because it did not occur to her that Lysa was pregnant with Petyr's child.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The full explanation for "tansy" and the involvement of Lysa and Petyr:

Lysa and LF slept together twice whilst they were both living at Riverrun. The second time was in the fortnight that Lysa was taking care of LF after the duel with Brandon, and this encounter left her pregnant. Hoster send LF away after the boy was strong enough, and I assume this was because he did not want the boy around for Catelyn's wedding, and because he felt LF had made a fool of himself.

In any case, Lysa discovered she was pregnant, and went to Hoster with the news, believing that Hoster would allow Lysa to marry LF, since she was pregnant with his child. Hoster, however, gave Lysa moon tea, which contains tansy. It seems that the tea was not made by a maester, and if it was, it was made by one who was terrible at making moon tea, because Lysa is described as to have "nearly died" because of it.

Hence, of course, Lysa's excitement after marrying Jon and her period being late.. she was obviously hoping for a child, but the fact that she wasn't pregnant must have been a bitter slap in the face and a reminder of the painful abortion she had had not a year past.

We don't know how long Lysa had been pregnant before the abortion. Obviously not that very long, since no one at Riverrun seems to have noticed anything, and Hoster only knew after expcilitly having been told by Lysa.

To add, I think the mentioning of a Tansy in the Riverlands this close after Hoster muttering tansy, was simply to throw the readers off track. Making us, the readers, think that Tansy was indeed a woman, like Catelyn thought at first, only to figure out later that Tansy was not a who, but a what.

I suspect that:

It was the tansy in the moon tea that might have been too much, which caused the experience for Lysa to be so painful, and the description of "nearly having died" to arise. So when Hoster is muttering about "tansy", he's reminiscing about the fact that too much tansy was used.

[Hippocras]

Well...

I don't actually agree with the interpretation above.

Lysa just wanted the baby and wanted Petyr's child specifically, and the abortion was done without her consent. She was furious with him for aborting at ALL, especially given her later experiences with multiple miscarriages and stillbirths - which were themselves because the father was geriatric and not because of the tea or anything. Guess what boys: there is such a thing as reproductive age for men too.

So the dosage had nothing to do with it. He was apologizing for the abortion without consent.

Her saying she almost died - I don't remember that, but sounds more like her tendency to exaggerate combined with her severe emotional distress than any actual risk to her life ever. Catelyn would have noticed if she had actually ever been sick.

[Consigliere]

SSM

2) The mixture called Tansy (or something similar, I haven't the book to check, so please forgive any names' distortion) is truly an abortion mixture or something you have invented?

No, it's real enough. Tansy and pennyroyal are two powerful (and DANGEROUS) natural abortifactants. Carelessly used, however, they can kill, so I was purposely vague and added a few fantasy touches to "moon tea." I did not want anyone trying them in real life. A web search will turn you plenty of both of them.

So if tansy was used in the moon tea it is likely that too much was used which led to Lysa's painful abortion as well as nearly killing her.

Edit. The use of tansy may also explain why Lysa had difficulty conceiving later on.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

SSM

So if tansy was used in the moon tea it is likely that too much was used which led to Lysa's painful abortion as well as nearly killing her.

Edit. The use of tansy may also explain why Lysa had difficulty conceiving later on.

Agreed! I said the same above.

As to Lysa's difficulty of conceiving later on: it's possible that the tansy had something to do with it. Seeing as how it caused Lysa's mental state of mind, Hoster might have had regrets forcing the abortion on Lysa, since by doing so, he did not only kill the one child, he killed almost all of her future children as well.

Jon Arryn's age might, of course, also have been a factir

[Consigliere]

Agreed! I said the same above.

As to Lysa's difficulty of conceiving later on: it's possible that the tansy had something to do with it. Seeing as how it caused Lysa's mental state of mind, Hoster might have had regrets forcing the abortion on Lysa, since by doing so, he did not only kill the one child, he killed almost all of her future children as well.

Jon Arryn's age might, of course, also have been a factir

JA's age could have been a factor too. I mentioned "difficulty conceiving" in my previous post and that is probably not the correct term to use. Lysa was able to conceive but had difficulty carrying to term. I think its stated that Lysa had two miscarriages and four stillbirths and I think that this may be more as a result of the tansy than JA's age.

[Hippocras]

Agreed! I said the same above.

As to Lysa's difficulty of conceiving later on: it's possible that the tansy had something to do with it. Seeing as how it caused Lysa's mental state of mind, Hoster might have had regrets forcing the abortion on Lysa, since by doing so, he did not only kill the one child, he killed almost all of her future children as well.

Jon Arryn's age might, of course, also have been a factir

Her difficulties were because the father was ancient, not the tea.

Sorry, but expecting ancient men to easily father health children on a mother who is herself somewhat frail is the problem there. No need to blame the tea.

[Hippocras]

JA's age could have been a factor too. I mentioned "difficulty conceiving" in my previous post and that is probably not the correct term to use. Lysa was able to conceive but had difficulty carrying to term. I think its stated that Lysa had two miscarriages and four stillbirths and I think that this may be more as a result of the tansy than JA's age.

No, chromosomal abnormalities causing miscarriage increase with paternal age

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

JA's age could have been a factor too. I mentioned "difficulty conceiving" in my previous post and that is probably not the correct term to use. Lysa was able to conceive but had difficulty carrying to term. I think its stated that Lysa had two miscarriages and four stillbirths and I think that this may be more as a result of the tansy than JA's age.

Agreed.

No, chromosomal abnormalities causing miscarriage increase with paternal age

Men in the age of 60 can still have children. Jon Arryn might have been a factor, but he would not have been the decisive factor.

[Consigliere]

No, chromosomal abnormalities causing miscarriage increase with paternal age

True but chromosomal abnormalities is not the only cause of miscarriage and not restricted to paternal age. The risk of miscarriage is about 10%-15% higher for a woman in her 40's than for a woman in her 20's.

[Hippocras]

True but chromosomal abnormalities is not the only cause of miscarriage and not restricted to paternal age. The risk of miscarriage is about 10%-15% higher for a woman in her 40's than for a woman in her 20's.

It is not only about the woman.

If it were common to look at miscarriage rates among women of the same age, but with fathers of different ages, the rate would go up drastically with older fathers, precisely because the body naturally rejects fetuses with chromosomal abnormalities. However in all things to do with fertility, the ancient habit is to blame the woman and old habits die hard.

[Consigliere]

It is not only about the woman.

If it were common to look at miscarriage rates among women of the same age, but with fathers of different ages, the rate would go up drastically with older fathers, precisely because the body naturally rejects fetuses with chromosomal abnormalities. However in all things to do with fertility, the ancient habit is to blame the woman and old habits die hard.

Never said its only about the woman. JA's age may be a factor but may not be the only factor. Chromosomal abnormalities is not the only cause of miscarriage.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It is not only about the woman.

If it were common to look at miscarriage rates among women of the same age, but with fathers of different ages, the rate would go up drastically with older fathers, precisely because the body naturally rejects fetuses with chromosomal abnormalities. However in all things to do with fertility, the ancient habit is to blame the woman and old habits die hard.

It's true that it's not only the woman who matters in this case. The man plays a role as well.

The older a man gets, the lesser quality his sperm becomes. That is a fact. The sperm becomes slower, and less is produced.

Lysa birthed one child, and miscarried five times. In addition, she was pregnant two more times, but both children were stillborn.

To me, it suggests that Lysa's uterus might not be the "most friendly environment" for a a fetus to grow, which could have cause the miscarriage. The damage to Lysa's uterus can very well be cause by the tansy. It would not be the first time that a substance used for abortus does damage to a womans body because it isn't used properly. This damage will be irriversible, and will leave the woman with difficulties to conceive or carry to term later on.

In addition to that, Jon Arryn's age might have been a causative factor as well, though men his age are perfectly capable of having children. The health of those children, is a completely other story, and the information I've read about it, immediately made me think about little Robert. Health issues for children who have been born by an older father (between 40-60) are not uncommon