Are you a Green or are you a black?

[TheWitch]

Who did YOU side with

(To those who haven't caught on, this is in reference to the Dance of the Dragons. The Greens where the forces that supported Aegon II claim and the Blacks supported Rhaenyra Targaryen claims)

[Nymeros]

Well...if you must know I am a Black. I believe Rhaenyra had the better claim and I detest any Reachmen, such as Otto Hightower having power at all. Also Daemon was a straight badass and I especially like House Velaryon now. I wish we could've learned more about Addam Velaryon and Seasmoke thoguh

[Don Roberto]

By andal laws Aegon's claim was better no matter how you look at it. Rhaenyra would be fifth in line for succession. She only stood a claim because she was a spoiled child who grew up thinking herself a queen (not so different from Cersei, when you come down to it).

Though both sides were assholes, none would have made good rulers, if I had to choose I'd say black just to end this "males first" stupidity.

[The Marquis de Leech]

It got to the point where I was hoping they'd both lose. It was a squabble between two spoilt children.

If you put a gun to my head though, I'd say Green, and not because of the claimant issue (which is really moot, I think ). Rather, I'd prefer to look at what the two of them actually did. Rhaenyra, having occupied King's Landing, really could have ended the war if she'd had an iota of common sense. But she didn't, and went on to make an utter hash of ruling. I think she "deserved" to lose more than Aegon, who by contrast was merely a petulant jerk with overly ambitious advisers (it wasn't Aegon's idea to crown himself).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think that this should be at General anyway, black all the way.

By andal laws Aegon's claim was better no matter how you look at it. Rhaenyra would be fifth in line for succession. She only stood a claim because she was a spoiled child who grew up thinking herself a queen (not so different from Cersei, when you come down to it).

Though both sides were assholes, none would have made good rulers, if I had to choose I'd say black just to end this "males first" stupidity.

And? When did the Targs gave a damn about Andals' law?

She stood a claim because the King had the power to name his heir and he named the one who was groomed to be the Monarch. I think that you have mistaken Rhaenyra for Hellicent.

[HexMachina]

Black, because I was behind Rhaenyra's claim (which was the true claim, since she was named the heir). Both sides included some brutes, but the Black's had more I felt warmly towards than the Green's (I only really liked Daeron from the Greens. Felt extremely sympathetic to Helaena though [yes, yes, name bias :p])

[TheWitch]

By andal laws Aegon's claim was better no matter how you look at it. Rhaenyra would be fifth in line for succession. She only stood a claim because she was a spoiled child who grew up thinking herself a queen (not so different from Cersei, when you come down to it).

Though both sides were assholes, none would have made good rulers, if I had to choose I'd say black just to end this "males first" stupidity.

I get your point on her being a bit of a spoilt brat, but at the end of the day she was the heir. Viserys named he heir in his will and raised to be the heir and didn't change this despite having sons. Which is totally different different to Cersei, who really has no claim to anything and yet feels that she does. Catserly Rock at a stretch but she has no reason to feel entitlement to the crown, when Rhaenyra had a solid claim.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I think it's uncertain whether Viserys had the power to appoint his daughter as successor when the standard Westerosi custom was "men first" (for the sake of argument, suppose Robert Baratheon had named Myrcella as his heir - I think there would be a few eyebrows raised about whether he could do that). There really were arguments on both sides, and some sort of Great Council would have solved a lot of bother.

But really, it's a story of aristocratic entitlement wrecking everything.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I think it's uncertain whether Viserys had the power to appoint his daughter as successor when the standard Westerosi custom was "men first"

Well the Westerosi law says no to brothersister marriage but the Targs said f*** off to that and did whatever they wanted. When incest is not only illegal but also a sin and the Targs didn't care or were criticised why the line of succession should be any different?

[TheWitch]

I agree. I think its important to remember this is the part of the Targaryen Dynasty where they still had Dragons, and they didn't really care what anyone said. After Aegon III I think they observed Andal customs more in order to keep people on their side. It also sparks the question, what where the Valyrian customs on women and inheritance.

[Shadrich]

Once you go black, you never go back

[Alester Florent]

Black, but I was alienated pretty quickly by Rhaenyra's terrible decision-making and leadership. I still had rather more sympathy for the Blacks as an overall faction, and the Greens did nothing for me at all, but Rhaenyra needed to go. It's just a shame she took the rest of her family and supporters with her.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Well the Westerosi law says no to brothersister marriage but the Targs said f*** off to that and did whatever they wanted. When incest is not only illegal but also a sin and the Targs didn't care or were criticised why the line of succession should be any different?

Because the incest is the one cultural norm that was explicitly exempted. They did otherwise adopt language, other aspects of religion, the institutions of the state, and so on. But more importantly, if we allow Viserys free rein to go against established succession norms on the grounds that the Targaryens can do what they please, what's the point of talking about rightful claimants at all? If Viserys' right to tell Andal law to get stuffed derives from dragons, what is illegitimate about the Greens telling Rhaenyra to get stuffed, again, with dragons? Why isn't it one big fiery free-for-all?

Not to say that that Aegon was the "rightful" claimant after all. It's just that the Targaryen dynasty had stumbled onto a grey area of law, where both sides had arguments.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Black!!!! F the Hightowers and their meddling, crazy women!!

[Don Roberto]

And? When did the Targs gave a damn about Andals' law?

Well, it is mentioned in the text:

"Ironrod, the master of laws, cited the Great Council of 101 and the Old King’s choice of Baelon rather than Rhaenys in 92, then discoursed at length about Aegon the Conquerer and his sisters, and the hallowed Andal tradition wherein the rights of a trueborn son always came before the rights of a mere daughter."

While the Targaryens kept a few of their customs, most notably the incest one, it is alluded to in the books that they did make an effort to blend into westerosi customs, such as knightly and court traditions, the Faith, and so on.

I get your point on her being a bit of a spoilt brat, but at the end of the day she was the heir. Viserys named he heir in his will and raised to be the heir and didn't change this despite having sons. Which is totally different different to Cersei, who really has no claim to anything and yet feels that she does. Catserly Rock at a stretch but she has no reason to feel entitlement to the crown, when Rhaenyra had a solid claim.

Oh, Rhaenyra certainly has more claim to the throne than Cersei ever did. What I meant was that both grew up thinking they would be queen (Rhaenyra through heritage, Cersei by marrying Rhaegar), to a point where they can't accept giving up the title.

I agree. I think its important to remember this is the part of the Targaryen Dynasty where they still had Dragons, and they didn't really care what anyone said. After Aegon III I think they observed Andal customs more in order to keep people on their side. It also sparks the question, what where the Valyrian customs on women and inheritance.

Dragons certainly bend the scales their way, but they don't make the Targaryens omnipotent. Aegon didn't conquer Westeros alone, dragons and whatnot. The Faith's army was worrisome enough to have been banned, and let's not forget that Dorne was only truly conquered by marriage.

[SkiThe603]

Black, Rheanys was a fierce fighter and a capable leader and her throne was stolen by the damn second Queen who had 0 fucking power

[The Marquis de Leech]

She only had her throne stolen if you think women can inherit before men (or alternatively that Kings can designate successors like Viserys did).

However, by no stretch of the imagination is Rhaenyra a "capable leader".

[A Bastard Snow]

Screw them both.Winter Wolves ftw

[Alester Florent]

It did seem to me that Martin went out of his way to curse the Blacks with as much bad luck as possible. Rhaenyra was pretty useless, but from the way things were presented the Blacks should still have cruised to victory and it took quite a lot of author fiat in the shape of ridiculous coincidences to turn things round. Just a few examples:

- Despite having a faster dragon, Lucaerys arrives at Storm's End marginally after a psychopath who's already arranged a deal and is determined to kill him. The Baratheons can't be bothered to try to stop this. On the way back, a storm is just powerful enough to slow him down so Aemond can catch him, but not powerful enough to stop the dragons taking off.

- An attempt to evacuate Black princes coincidentally runs into the entire Green navy.

- Despite a perfect tactical ambush and being on the verge of annihilating the Green fleet, unexplained circumstances suddenly cause Jacaerys and his dragon to immediately die, which changes the course of the battle so that it's actually a Green victory somehow.

- Another apparently guaranteed victory for the Blacks is denied when a Green dragon appears out of nowhere and doesn't die.

- Sunfyre (who appears to be functionally immortal and has already survived one serious wounding without being killed, unlike all Black dragons in the entire war) is isolated and attacked, but manages to wipe out an entire Black army and escape.

- Sunfyre compounds this by killing two perfectly healthy dragons on Dragonstone and allowing Aegon to hide out there indefinitely.

- When the Blacks are on the verge of total victory, two of their dragon riders betray them for no apparent reason. Rhaenyra orders two more killed, causing one to run away forever and an additional one - the most powerful remaining and her leading general - to commit suicide.

- The smallfolk randomly decide to murder all the remaining dragons and succeed in killing five of them, including killing two fully-grown and flying dragons, where Black professional soldiers have previously proven incapable of finishing off one wounded one. Four of these five are Black dragons and the Green one was of no use to the war effort anyway. Another Black prince is killed, because why not.

When the author hates you that much, it's hard not to feel sympathy.

[averde]

Because the incest is the one cultural norm that was explicitly exempted. They did otherwise adopt language, other aspects of religion, the institutions of the state, and so on. But more importantly, if we allow Viserys free rein to go against established succession norms on the grounds that the Targaryens can do what they please, what's the point of talking about rightful claimants at all? If Viserys' right to tell Andal law to get stuffed derives from dragons, what is illegitimate about the Greens telling Rhaenyra to get stuffed, again, with dragons? Why isn't it one big fiery free-for-all?

Not to say that that Aegon was the "rightful" claimant after all. It's just that the Targaryen dynasty had stumbled onto a grey area of law, where both sides had arguments.

We actually don't know how the line of succession was handled pre-a dance with dragons. It was changed to put all men in front of women after the dance but we don't know how it was set up before. It could have easily been oldest child inherits or previous king chooses an heir, etc.