Mychel_Redfort Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 So why did we not see white ravens announcing autumn at King's Landing? Or elsewhere? aCoK Bran I : Bran asked Septon Chayle about the comet while they were sorting through some scrolls snatched from the library fire. "It is the sword that slays the season," he replied, and soon after the white raven came from Oldtown bringing word of autumn, so doubtless he was right. aCoK Catelyn I : The shortest way to the central keep where her father lay dying was through the godswood, with its grass and wildflowers and thick stands of elm and redwood. A wealth of rustling leaves still clung to the branches of the trees, all ignorant of the word the white raven had brought to Riverrun a fortnight past. Autumn had come, the Conclave had declared, but the gods had not seen fit to tell the winds and woods as yet. For that Catelyn was duly grateful. Autumn was always a fearful time, with the spectre of winter looming ahead. Even the wisest man never knew whether his next harvest would be the last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I suspect Tywin never became a knight, because it would mean making vows, and he was going to be the Lord of Casterly Rock. Being a knight doesn't disqualify one from becoming a Lord later. And if Robert were knighted, I would expect someone somewhere to have referred to him as "Ser Robert, as he then was" in their story telling. Robert spent his youth in the Vale, and if he was knighted before becoming a Lord, that is where he would've taken his vows. We haven't seen anyone from the Vale telling stories about young Ser Robert though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Robert spent his youth in the Vale, and if he was knighted before becoming a Lord, that is where he would've taken his vows. We haven't seen anyone from the Vale telling stories about young Ser Robert though. I forget. Approximately how old was Robert when his parents died? If he were knighted after their deaths then I suppose he would be referred to by the higher title. Lord instead of Ser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I'm sure someone mentioned that only knights can fight in tourneys but I can no longer find that post :dunno:Anyway, this isn't true; it varies from tourney to tourney. Some allow only knights, some allow pretty much anyone (I think the Tourney of the Hand would be the latter, given that Ned's northerners were allowed to compete). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I forget. Approximately how old was Robert when his parents died? If he were knighted after their deaths then I suppose he would be referred to by the higher title. Lord instead of Ser. He was 15 when his parents died and he became Lord of Storm's End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Does anyone have any thoughts about why the white raven shows up in King's Landing so late? After all, the white raven shows up at Dragonstone at the very start of aCoK, but not at King's Landing until the end of aDwD, and they aren't that far apart, relatively speaking. Surely once summer has been declared to be over, the maesters of Oldtown send out white ravens to everyone? The White Ravens announce the turn of every season. The white raven in Clash at Dragonstone announced autumn, the white raven in Dance at King's Landing announces winter. I guess the white rave at King's Landing arrived before Tyrion did. Since Tyrion was the only POV in KL for a long time who would actually have had access to the white ravens, or the information that they brought. No one is going to tell Sansa that a white raven has arrived... ACoK starts a long time before the end of aDwD. :) And if Robert were knighted, I would expect someone somewhere to have referred to him as "Ser Robert, as he then was" in their story telling. Hmm, I just remembered Shireen saying, will it snow now, but I see Cressen says hopefully there will be a long autumn. So why did we not see white ravens announcing autumn at King's Landing? Or elsewhere? And frankly speaking, there only seems to be only two seasons in Westeros. :P Not if Robert became a Lord and only then got knighted We've spend time in summer, we've spend time in autumn, we've spend time in winter, we've heard tales about the Year of the False Spring... That's four seasons, not two :) I forget. Approximately how old was Robert when his parents died? If he were knighted after their deaths then I suppose he would be referred to by the higher title. Lord instead of Ser. Robert's parents died in ±279AC, making Robert 16. Seeing as how people usually get knighted at 16 or 17, and only sometimes at the age of 15, Robert might simply not have been done with his training for knighthood when he became a lord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mychel_Redfort Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Anyway, this isn't true; it varies from tourney to tourney. Some allow only knights, some allow pretty much anyone (I think the Tourney of the Hand would be the latter, given that Ned's northerners were allowed to compete). A proof of that is in The Hedge Knight : Dunk pulled shut the door. "Are you Plummer the steward? I came for the tourney. To enter the lists." Plummer pursed his lips. "My lord's tourney is a contest for knights. Are you a knight?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Can anyone point me to a thread discussing the significance of when the number seven is used? I just noted that seven of Jon's friends rode out to bring him back to the Wall at the end of Game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 <sighs> Do I really need to buy more copies of all the books for my kindle, just so I can search? How rich do I have to make GRRM? Bloody hell. But thanks Mychel_Redfort! I thought we saw a number of people talk about Robert in his youth, when he was with Ned Stark at the Vale. And if he was 15 when his parents died in the storm, he likely skipped being knighted, because he would be Lord Baratheon already. Stannis never mentions Robert being knighted in any of his many reminiscences of Robert. So, I still think Barristan's description is generic, until someone comes out and remembers his knighthood. I think in RL medieval times you had to be a knight to fight in a tourney, but not in Westeros, as others have mentioned. They were practice battles for the nobility, commoners need not apply. ETA: RT, why would a lord get knighted after becoming a lord? That doesn't make sense, since a Lord has a higher standing than a mere knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 And if Robert were knighted, I would expect someone somewhere to have referred to him as "Ser Robert, as he then was" in their story telling. I'll be sure to get a memo to the George. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCrannogDweller Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I think in RL medieval times you had to be a knight to fight in a tourney, but not in Westeros, as others have mentioned. They were practice battles for the nobility, commoners need not apply. Tourneys usually have more than one event though. For the joust, it could probably go both ways. But for the melee and the archery you don't have to be a knight to enter. Thoros fights in melees and he definitely isn't a knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Well, archery isn't fighting. Knights were not archers, that was beneath them. That's why you hired archers. :) In RL medieval tournaments, I think only knights fought in melees as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 SSM on tourney rules...http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Tourney_RulesLearn it. Know it. Live it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Fragile Bird, I don't think it's unusual for a young lord to continue his training and eventually be knighted. Afterall Rhaegar was knighted at seventeen and he was the crown prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 <sighs> Do I really need to buy more copies of all the books for my kindle, just so I can search? How rich do I have to make GRRM? Bloody hell. But thanks Mychel_Redfort! I thought we saw a number of people talk about Robert in his youth, when he was with Ned Stark at the Vale. And if he was 15 when his parents died in the storm, he likely skipped being knighted, because he would be Lord Baratheon already. Stannis never mentions Robert being knighted in any of his many reminiscences of Robert. So, I still think Barristan's description is generic, until someone comes out and remembers his knighthood. I think in RL medieval times you had to be a knight to fight in a tourney, but not in Westeros, as others have mentioned. They were practice battles for the nobility, commoners need not apply. ETA: RT, why would a lord get knighted after becoming a lord? That doesn't make sense, since a Lord has a higher standing than a mere knight. I don't know :p Perhaps it was already in the planning, but then his parents died, he became lord, but didn't want to skip his knighthood? Quentyn Martell is a prince, a higher station that a knight, yet he got knighted while already being a prince.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 On knights vs lords, of course the one outranks the other but the titles are not mutually exclusive. In the US Army, an enlisted man or officer can earn an Expert Infantryman's Badge by demonstrating competence across a number of tasks. An officer outranks an enlisted man, but if he earned an EIB, he's going to wear it. Becoming a knight is like entering into an order, whether you're a lord or not. It shows that you have earned the same distinction as any other knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Perhaps it's the more titles you have, the more respect Westerosi think people will give you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Can anyone point me to a thread discussing the significance of when the number seven is used? I just noted that seven of Jon's friends rode out to bring him back to the Wall at the end of Game. This is the only one I could find. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/85595-the-seven-targaryen-crowns/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwindor of Nargothrond Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I doubt you are required to be a knight to enter tournaments. 'Mystery knights' are mentioned on a few occasions, and if no one knows who they are, they would surely not be able to enter, as they may not be knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rill Redthorn Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 I'm sure Robert, Stannis, and Renly were all knighted. Knighthood in Westeros appears to be a sort of "Now I Am A Man" kind of thing for all young male nobles who are minimally fit and competent. Commoners have to work at it, but noble sons get knighted as soon as they can show minimum proficiency at arms, it seems. While being knighted historically usually involved things like vigils and fasting and so on, in Westeros it can be done in about two minutes by any knight (cf. "The Hedge Knight" where the Green Apple Fossoway gets knighted by the Laughing Storm.) Raymun complains in "The Hedge Knight" that his cousin is keeping him a squire for longer than seems fair. Being knighted by a fighter of note is regarded as a sign of honor because it means they've recognized your skill at arms and your knighthood is backed by true achievement as a fighter, but that's only a big deal for a son who's going to be a knight as a profession. A son expected to inherit would probably get knighted as a kind of perfunctory thing. I think it's kind of like getting that MBA if your Dad owns the company. Yeah, you want to have the sheepskin, but you don't actually need it, and you certainly don't need it from a great school. You're going to get the job anyway. But if your Dad doesn't own the company, having the MBA backed by a good school counts for a lot in the job hunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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