House Velaryon family tree

[TGR]

The App update brought us two new names on House Velaryon. Two new brides of Targaryen princes. But, off course, nobody knows for sure where Alyssa and Daenaera fit in the family tree.

Is Alyssa Daemon's daughter? Is Daenaera Corlys's daughter?

Anyway, my question is: since Velaryons are really connected to Targs very early, will "The World" have the Velaryon family tree? Or at least any information to clarify where they fit in the Velaryon tree?

Thanks in advance

[ChrisJM89]

I'm not certain about Alyssa, (shes a daughter or granddaughter of Daemon perhaps?). Daenaera however, couldn't be Corlys daughter though, due to birth dates. Daeron is born in 142, Daenaera could only have been born in the early part of 131, at the earliest. Making her 11 at Daeron's birth.

If she was already born however, perhaps to a deceased younger brother of Corlys. She'd be old enough to be Daeron et al's mother and, if Addam and Alyn are Leanor's it'd make Elaena Targaryen and Alyn 2nd cousins. Which fits with the known canon.

So I figure, Corlys would rather have children of Laenor as his heirs, instead of Daenaera because; one she's young, also female and thirdly Addam tames a Dragon and (if Laenor is his father) both he and Alyn are 1/4 Targaryen through Rhaenys. (royal claim and blood ties, were Daenaera wouldn't of had that if she was a niece or grand-niece.)

[TGR]

I'm not certain about Alyssa, (shes a daughter or granddaughter of Daemon perhaps?). Daenaera however, couldn't be Corlys daughter though, due to birth dates. Daeron is born in 142, Daenaera could only have been born in the early part of 131, at the earliest. Making her 11 at Daeron's birth.

If she was already born however, perhaps to a deceased younger brother of Corlys. She'd be old enough to be Daeron et al's mother and, if Addam and Alyn are Leanor's it'd make Elaena Targaryen and Alyn 2nd cousins. Which fits with the known canon.

So I figure, Corlys would rather have children of Laenor as his heirs, instead of Daenaera because; one she's young, also female and thirdly Addam tames a Dragon and (if Laenor is his father) both he and Alyn are 1/4 Targaryen through Rhaenys. (royal claim and blood ties, were Daenaera wouldn't of had that if she was a niece or grand-niece.)

Would be cool to find out if Corlys really had a brother (or sister) and Daenaera was his niece. However there is no evidence yet on where did she came from. Maybe in "The Rogue Prince" will they mention anything (thats why it was updated in the app)? The fact that Addam and Alyn are brothers by Laenor could open the possibility of Daenaera be their sister (I don't think so but just throwing some ideas)?

Thats the reason why I asked about the Velaryon family tree in the book, since we already know that Targs will be there (apart from Egg's time, spoiler on D&E)

[ChrisJM89]

Daenaera, unfortunately couldn't be Alyn's sister due to his and Elaena's later love. She loved her cousin Alyn, not her uncle :)

[The hairy bear]

ChrisJM89,

If Bloodraven called Egg his cousin...but yes, you're probalbly right. That would be pushing it too much.

[ChrisJM89]

The Targaryens are cousins no matter what other relationship they have haha.

I hope the Velaryon get a family tree showing too though. Even if it's only Daemon Velaryon to Alyn Oakenfist.

[TGR]

The Targaryens are cousins no matter what other relationship they have haha.

I hope the Velaryon get a family tree showing too though. Even if it's only Daemon Velaryon to Alyn Oakenfist.

Exacly! Since after Alyn the no other Velaryon is mentioned (or at least seems close to Targs) makes sense that this part of the family has something right by Targaryens. Perhaps could go a little back, to understand why Aerion married Velena Velaryon.

[ChrisJM89]

The new update says Velena herself was half-Targaryen as well, through her mother.

[TGR]

The new update says Velena herself was half-Targaryen as well, through her mother.

Nice! Thanks for the tip man, I would not know that soon...

[TGR]

EDITED: I saw that Velena changed to Valaena in the Wiki and could not understand why. Now I do: http://www.georgerrmartin.com/world-of-ice-and-fire-sample/

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ah, the Velaryons... Next to the Targaryens and the Martells my favorite family to figure out :D

Would be cool to find out if Corlys really had a brother (or sister) and Daenaera was his niece. However there is no evidence yet on where did she came from. Maybe in "The Rogue Prince" will they mention anything (thats why it was updated in the app)? The fact that Addam and Alyn are brothers by Laenor could open the possibility of Daenaera be their sister (I don't think so but just throwing some ideas)?

Thats the reason why I asked about the Velaryon family tree in the book, since we already know that Targs will be there (apart from Egg's time, spoiler on D&E)

Though it seems unlikely that Alyn and Addam were children of Corlys (the young age, Corlys' love to his wife), it might be that he had nephews or cousins who had bastards. In any case, to me it seems that Alyn and Addam were born to a man from Laenors generation, though not necessarily from Laenor himself.

Daenaera married a King, so being a bastard girl who is legitimized would be out of the question for her (so the possibility of Daenaera being Alyn's sister is gone). To marry Aegon, she would need to be old enough to birth Daeron in 143AC, which she couldn't have been if she was Alyn's daughter, and in addition, Elaena and Alyn would then be granddaughter and grandfather, not cousins, so this options is eliminated as well.

What I think, is that there's simply a few Velaryons we haven't met yet.. Nephews (who might not have been in Westeros during the Dance, because House Velaryon does use a lot of ships, perhaps they were gone on adveture?) or more distant cousins (who would then not necessarily live on Driftmark, and thus not been mentioned so far).

Ran told that the parentage of Addam and Alyn would be discussed in the World Book, so I guess that opens up the possibility for more discussion on House Velaryon.

Exacly! Since after Alyn the no other Velaryon is mentioned (or at least seems close to Targs) makes sense that this part of the family has something right by Targaryens. Perhaps could go a little back, to understand why Aerion married Velena Velaryon.

Well, in the present asoiaf times, we have Aurane Waters, the bastard of Driftmark, with his trueborn brother Lord Monfrod, and Monfords young son Monterys. Those are all the Velaryons in present times, but there is a huge gap between Alyn and Monford, I agree.

I suppose Aerion married Valaena because he had no sister to wed, and Valaena was the next best thing: half Targaryen on her mothers side..

Looking at Aenys' age, I'd say that Alyssa Velaryon was not from Daemon Velaryon's generation, nor from the generation after that, but from the generation that comes next. So if Daemon had children before he died, she could be his granddaughter. If he didn't have any children, Alyssa could easily be the granddaughter of brother of Daemon (due to the fact Alyssa is still called Velaryon, she must descent through the male line of Velaryons).

[Vikingr]

My theory is that Daemon Velaryon was the brother of Valaena Velaryon and thus belonged to the generation before Aegon's and must have been fairly old by the time of the conquest. He must have been succeeded by an unknown son who fathered Alyssa Velaryon. If that is the case then Aenys and Alyssa must have been second cousins.

Their great granddaughter Princess Rhaenys Targaryen married Lord Corlys Velaryon who must have been the descendant of Alyssa's brother. From what I have gathered it seems that we do not know how many children Aenys and Alyssa had, but it seems that their eldest son Prince Aegon fathered two daughters before his death and his brother Jaehaerys had something like nine children with his sister-wife Alysanne, so theoratically Corlys him self might have had a Targaryen mother or grandmother.

Either way I have a feeling that at this point they have intermarried so often that the Velaryons have just as much Targaryen blood as the Targaryens have Velaryon blood. Also, considering that marrying brother to sister or a cousin (or other relatives) seems to have been a Valyrian custom rather than just a Targaryen tradition, I find it extremely likely that the Velaryons also married their sisters "to keep the bloodline pure."

Things get really complicated during the years around the Dance of the Dragons. Corlys and his wife had two children at the very least : Laena and Laenor Velaryon. Both of them died before the civil war and it seems that Laenor's sons were the heirs to Driftmark at the time. If I remember correctly Aegon II indeed attempted to prevent the war by confirming Rhaenyra's possession of Dragonstone and let her first son, Jacaerys inherit it upon her death while her second son Lucerys would be recognized as the heir to Driftmark. But as we know, none of Laenor's sons (that is if he was their father at all) survived the war which led to the Sea Snake to petition for Addam and Alyn of Hull to be legitimized. Upon their legitimization, Addam Velaryon became the heir to Driftmark and when he died, that title must have passed on to his younger brother Alyn Velaryon.

So I believe that the current Velaryons are descended from Alyn, but the problem is that we do not really know anything for sure about his parentage. I think there are a few possibilities :

• Laenor Velaryon : Unless I am wrong, it seems that in-universe most people believe them to have been Ser Laenor Velaryon's bastards. An excerpt I saw last night definitely suggests this since it stated that their mother claimed that Laenor was their father. If that is true then Alyn must have had a significant amount of Targaryen heritage. Problem is that it seems he might have been gay and even a pedophile.
  
• Corlys Velaryon : It was how ever also heavily suggested that Laenor's father Corlys was in fact their father and he merely chose to hide them from his wife who y'know, happened to be a dragonrider. When she died he had the opportunity to acknowledge them and later have them legitimized, only he claimed that they were fathered by his son, possibly to avoid damaging his own reputation because of the taboo of being unfaithful to his wife? I don't know honestly, i'm a bit unconvinced because it seems that he genuinely loved his wife.
  
• Unknown Velaryon : Perhaps they were just the sons of a brother, cousin, nephew or any distant relative from a junior branch of the family.
  
• Unknown Targaryen : Alternatively, it occurred to me that they might not even be Velaryons at all, but rather Targaryen bastards Corlys decided to adopt, realizing that his family might be on the brink of extinction. I don't find this very likely though.
  
• Random nobody : Or they might not even be Velaryons or Targaryen at all, just some kids who happened to have the right physical features. I find this even less likely.
  

Queen Daenaera Velaryon is the most difficult to figure out. Corlys and Rhaenys are too old to be her parents, but perhaps they had a second son we don't know about yet who fathered a daughter before dying prematurely like Laenor and Laena? The only other alternative I can think of is a member of a lesser branch of the family.

Finally, we know that House Velaryon provided brides for three Targaryen princes. Prince Daemon Targaryen married Laena Velaryon and King Aenys I most likely married Alyssa Velaryon before being crowned, which leaves us one unknown Targaryen-Velaryon match. I don't think Aegon III and Daenaera are counted because he had already been crowned when he married her. I really hope this is revealed, but I have heard that it might have been Prince Valarr Targaryen, although I haven't seen any source that suggests this.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I find it very hard to believe there were no Velaryon cousins around during the Dance, or before. Daenaera could descent from one of them. It seems likely that Corlys wanted his own line continued, and rather choose to do to using bastards (who might not even have been Laenors*, but who looked more likely to be Laenors than Laenors "trueborn" children), than by using those children bearing the Velaryon name, but who might very well not have been Velaryons (Jace, Luke, Joff).

*It's my theory that Corlys was convinced Addam and Alyn were Laenors, even if they weren't really, and no one believed it. Corlys' opinion on it would have been the only thing that mattered.

[Lord Varys]

The third Targaryen prince married to a Velaryon bride could be Daeron I. He was married, and according to Targaryen marriage customs, especially in the light of the fact that the dynasty had only very recently survived the Dance, it's not unlikely that Aegon III married his eldest son and heir to a Velaryon - a daughter of Alyn, I'd imagine - before he died. Daeron could have been thirteen at that time, he ascended the Iron Throne at the age of fourteen.

But, of course, Valarr, Matarys, Maekar, even Daeron the Drunk, Aerion, Egg, and any of Egg's sons are possibilities, although I'd still stick to Daeron I, since that was the time when the Velaryon were still a very prestigious, influential, and powerful family. And Alyn Velaryon played a huge role during the Conquest of Dorne.

I like the theory of Daemon Velaryon being the (younger?) brother of Valaena Velaryon. And it's indeed very likely that Velaryon sons were among the best candidates for 'spare Targaryen princesses' to marry. Another good candidate would be Orys Baratheon's son and heir. I'm pretty sure one of Aenys' sisters was married to him - explaining why Jaehaerys' son Prince Aemon later married Jocelyn Baratheon.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That could very well be.

If Daemon was Valaena's brother, he should have been married and have had children by the time of his death. That would make Alyssa either his daughter or granddaughter, and as I speculated before, Aenys' marriage to Alyssa (political reasons) might have been because of his death.

With Valaena having had a Targaryen mother (though we don't know from which branch of the family), and especially with Rhaenys' marriage to Corlys, it does indeed seem to have been the case that Targaryen women married Velaryon men when there were no Targaryen men of the right age available, for whatever reason.

If anything, I suspect Daenaera to have been a daughter of one of Corlys' cousins/nephews, since I cannot imagine Corlys was the only Velaryon left, especially not since it seemed like such a good era for the Velaryons.

Though it does seem like there was a preference for Velaryons over Baratheons... Perhaps they still doubted Orys' parentage?

[Lord Varys]

My guess is that Aenys' marriage to Alyssa was at least partially an attempt to not offend the Westerosi establishment - especially the Faith - by arranging an incestuous marriage for Aegon's heir. Visenya, on the other hand, pushed for an incestuous marriage for Maegor, marrying her son to one of Aenys' sister - most certainly to strengthen Maegor's claim to the Iron Throne.

Lord Daemon Velaryon died during the Conquest, Alyssa and Aenys most likely married in the early 20s, if Aenys was truly born in 7 AC, as seems to be the case. And since Daemon died seven years before Aenys was born, it's very unlikely that Alyssa was his daughter. An 12-15-year-old Aenys would most likely not be married to a woman who is at least seven year older than he is.

It would be interesting to know if there was another Targaryen cadet branch still around at this time, descended from some former generation. If that's the case, I could easily see Alyssa's mother being also a (half-)Targaryen.

As to the Baratheon thing: Well, Orys and Aegon were close friends. But that does not mean that later Baratheons were this close to the Targaryens in charge. Jaehaerys most certainly was, and I could easily see Orys' son - especially if he was married to one of Aenys' sisters - playing a huge role in putting Jaehaerys I on the Iron Throne. That, in turn, could explain why Prince Aemon was married to Jocelyn.

Pre-Dance the Baratheons were apparently firmly in the Rhaenys' camp. Lord Borros' treacherous behavior should have made the Baratheons not exactly well-liked at court during the reign of Aegon III up to, say, the death of Viserys II.

[Moondancer]

:agree: The world book gave a very plausible explanation.

By Mushroom? :D I don't know...

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

so why did GRRM change Velena's name ?

[Lord Varys]

A speculation about Corlys' mother:

TPatQ seems to indicate that Lord Corlys is really a old man during the Dance - I recall him stating that the 'gods may have preserved for this last fight'. Princess Rhaenys dies at the age of fifty-five, but Corlys could easily be 10-20 years older. He most likely conducted his major voyages and explorations along the northern coast of Essos during his youth, and only married Princess Rhaenys after he came back, settled on Driftmark, and became Lord Velaryon.

Considering that it seems that Rhaenys is the only surviving child of Jaehaerys' eldest son Prince Aemon (there was most certainly no brother alive upon Aemon's death, but there could be (a) younger sister(s)), it's very interesting that she, most likely the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne if Aemon had outlived Jaehaerys, was married to Corlys, and not, say, to Prince Viserys.

My guess is that Corlys may also be descended from Aenys Targaryen, through one of Jaehaerys' elder siblings.

Excerpts from the Worldbook mention that Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena had twin daughters in the early years of Maegor's reign.

One of them could easily have been Corlys' mother, and the marriage between Rhaenys and Corlys would then have reunited the older and younger branch of House Targaryen...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

A speculation about Corlys' mother:

TPatQ seems to indicate that Lord Corlys is really a old man during the Dance - I recall him stating that the 'gods may have preserved for this last fight'. Princess Rhaenys dies at the age of fifty-five, but Corlys could easily be 10-20 years older. He most likely conducted his major voyages and explorations along the northern coast of Essos during his youth, and only married Princess Rhaenys after he came back, settled on Driftmark, and became Lord Velaryon.

Considering that it seems that Rhaenys is the only surviving child of Jaehaerys' eldest son Prince Aemon (there was most certainly no brother alive upon Aemon's death, but there could be (a) younger sister(s)), it's very interesting that she, most likely the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne if Aemon had outlived Jaehaerys, was married to Corlys, and not, say, to Prince Viserys.

My guess is that Corlys may also be descended from Aenys Targaryen, through one of Jaehaerys' elder siblings.

Excerpts from the Worldbook mention that Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaena had twin daughters in the early years of Maegor's reign.

One of them could easily have been Corlys' mother, and the marriage between Rhaenys and Corlys would then have reunited the older and younger branch of House Targaryen...

Added to such potential Targaryen blood would be that Corlys might also have Targaryen blood through earlier generations, since the mother of Valaena was a Targaryen. If Valaena and Daemon were siblings, and if Corlys descents directly from Daemon, Corlys would have Targaryen blood from there.

Isn't is agewise possible that one of those girls was Corlys' mother? Rhaenys was born in 74AC, and if Corlys was say, 15 years older (20 might be a bit too much for the heir of a house, 10 seems to be normal, so I took the average) that would mean Corlys was born in 59AC.

Aegon and Rhaena had their children in 43AC, though we don't know how old the girls were in 43AC. They could have been a few years old, already, but I suspect not that old, since Aegon's brother Viserys was only 14 years old in 43AC. The girls would have been in their late teens/early twenties when Corlys was born. Sounds logical. That is, if those two girls survived Maegor.