[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

[Rockroi]

The episode many have been waiting for for a long time (at least since Joff rode into Winterfell in the Pilot).

What I Liked:

An Heir of Desperation: Stannis’ situation growing more and more precarious was well documented and the dialog between Selyse and Stannis was very good. Again, when Stannis is given some breath to grow, the writing tends to be very good. His decency does tend to leak out (and I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this episode was written by Martin, who has a far far far more balanced hand with Stannis than D&D). Stannis’ commitment is as severe as its ever been. But… wasn’t he supposed to go North?

Stark, Raving Visions: Bran’s dip into the pool of the Supernatural- complete with visions similar to Dany- was very well thought out and executed. For a quick scene, it reminded us all of the scope of this work.

A Bolton in the Snow: The strident terror of the New North was played perfectly with the cold, calculating and brutal Roose Bolton holding court over the reptilian Locke, the psychotic Ramsey and the meek Reek. I thought that the show did a great job of encapsulating Reek’s demise and how pliable he is now to Ramsey. It also captured perfectly the high tension and shear terror that is the North now without Starks. Also, that Reek told Ramsey about the truth of the Stark boys.

The Dwarf and the Cripple: So, buried deep in this episode was the new discovery of Jaime and Tyrion, characters who have not shared a screen since the pilot. Jaime’s training combined was great, but even better was that possibly for the first time in their relationship, it was TYRION who had to make JAIME feel safe and Jaime who had to admit to a physical limitation. The complexity of that relationship was tremendous.

And…

I have a theory.

I don’t think Shae is an accident. I think Tywin planted Shae; I think Tywin planted Shae and paid Bronn to bring him to Tyrion so that Shae could keep tabs on Tyrion for Tywin. At first, this was only for the time they were in the camp, but as time went on… well… if you are going to make a man Hand, might as well have a tail on him. This explains Shae’s strange pedigree; this explains her constant complaints (gets more info from Tyrion), and it it explains her reluctance to leave.

This will also explain her strange rediscovery in a few episodes.

That’s my theory.

Purple People Eaters: Everything about the wedding was tremendous; the dialog between the players, the development of the murder, Joff’s insanity, Brienne’s silent admission that she does love Jaime (and who can blame her), the dwarf war. 95% of the wedding was absolutely perfect, but the actual murder itself was special. Joff’s death was about as well done as can be (even Jaime… calling him “Joffery” not “Your Grace” at the critical moment). Joff’s death was raw, real, terrifying, horrible and in many ways far worse than Robb’s or Ned’s. It captured the terror of his end moments. Many people have wanted Joff dead for so long and in many ways this was as good as they could have hoped.

What I am On the Fence On:

MY Son is Dead… I wonder What is on TV Later: In the book, Cersei’s scream is the defining characteristic of JOff’s murder. Her wail, her shear anguish over the death of her son is spectacular and sad- the fact that the reader can actually feel sorry for the Queen of Madness was a triumph of writing and of the reader’s ability to empathize even with the horribles of the world. The show? Cersei seemed upset… I mean for a second or two- her son ded, but it was almost as if the director told her, “Look, Leena, babe- don’t dwell on it… I mean, you have TWO other kids, MIRITE?!?!” CErsei’s reaction to her son’s murder was pedestrian, sloppy and cheap. Yeah, she has the ANGER down pat, but her anguish was stilted, quick and brief.

What I didn't Like:

Remember that Time In the Book Where they Tried to Kill Bran …. Neither did the Show!!! So, last week, I postulated that on eof the best parts of the book was when Tyrion finally pieced together that JOff ordered Bran killed. In the books, it’s a big moment because it 1) shows us Tyrion’s Brilliance, 2) gives payoff to the audience for solving a mystery and 3) fulfills a promise to the audience that even long-passed mysteries WILL be solved. Here? Nah!!!!! Who needs conectivityu of story and a description of past events by revealing the truths in the present? That’s for losers! Who cares about solving problems and answering questions- HERE MORE BOOBIES!!!

Look, I am readily and happily WITHDRAW this criticism if JOff’s culpability is revealed in short order (I don’t want to wait until the end of episode 40 to find out about an attempted murder in episode 2). But, if its not and if D&D just let that juicy morsel “die on the vine” and convince us that Cersei ordered it … well… I got one word for that:

Fail.

Overall, a classic episode in a long sea of classics. Great success.

[rmholt]

Not the point. The point is: if Balon is alive, how could Joffrey claim he defeated him?

Well I don't know. Edmure and Blackfish are alive so I guess Frey lost that one. :/

[Knight of Ashes]

For a while there in Season 1, I thought they were writing a somewhat smarter version of Joffrey. His line there in an ep of Season 2 , "We're at war, nobody's safe" seem to bear this out and I thought he suspected who his true father is 'cause of the expression on his face when Tyrion, in the heat of the moment, told him he owed "you're Uncle Jaime" a lot. Oh well.....

ETA

There are times when Stannis looks like Alaister Sim playing Scrooge.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Knight of Ashes

[rmholt]

Ooooooh Tapatalk haz LIKE. Also for my many 'fans' I note it also haz multiquote.

Edited April 14, 2014 by rmholt

[jmondrag]

If you look at like 32.55 it seems as if there is a jewel missing from Sansa's necklace. Either that, or the jewel looks like it's tucked under here dress, but I think that's the one that is supposed to be missing.

[The Abominable SnowOther]

eek watching now

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Oh, further Unsullied speculation on whodunnit:

a few people already suspect THE PIE, not the wine, was poison, since Joffrey was the only one who ate pie.

Given how often people on here have suspected the pie was poisoned instead/as well, I thought that was interesting to see.

I have a long week of reading reaction threads ahead of me... :)

[Stannis I]

Well I don't know. Edmure and Blackfish are alive so I guess Frey lost that one. :/

Tullys were never kings and Edmure is a hostage. That dwarf scene ("I'm drowning"), I believe, could mean nothing (foreshadowing) or everything. Could mean, for instance, that Tywin arranged for Balon to be killed, and not Euron.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Oh, further Unsullied speculation on whodunnit:

a few people already suspect THE PIE, not the wine, was poison, since Joffrey was the only one who ate pie.

Given how often people on here have suspected the pie was poisoned instead/as well, I thought that was interesting to see.

I have a long week of reading reaction threads ahead of me... :)

If they poisoned the pie they would have been planning on mass murder, not just offing Joffrey

[Madfunkymonkey]

Didn't D&D eliminate Ros because the actress didn't want to do anymore nude scenes? At least, that was the rumor. Perhaps she is the new "random woman we can show nude and act as though that's part of the plot." Giving her a role as Ramsay's henchwoman might be a set up for that...

Glad to hear it. I hope she stays healthy.

Also, am I the only one unhappy that apparently Selyse and Stannis were already married during the siege of Storm's End? It doesn't really matter since they already got rid of Edric Storm in the show, but I always liked how angry Stannis was that Robert bedded their cousin in his marriage bed and caused him not to have sons.

I assumed that the actress is question was the actress who plays Shae.

Shae hasn't been nude since that rumor came out.

[Rockroi]

I actually thought the show made it "obvious" that Olenna did it. But then again, that's to a person who has known that fact for 14 years.... so ...

[ebevan91]

Has the preview of episode 3 been uploaded anywhere? I didn't watch it on my TV so I didn't get to see the preview.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

It seems to have been lost in all the discussions about Joffrey and the PW, but Alfie Allen gave good Reek in this episode.

yeah reek was really good in this. Theon had that "not all there" look.

[Newstar]

I assumed that the actress is question was the actress who plays Shae.

Shae hasn't been nude since that rumor came out.

Except that Shae is still around and that character was always doomed, as opposed to non-book Ros who could have lived past Season 3, who was offed in 3x06, and whose entire arc in Season 3 seemed to be aimed towards writing her out.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Newstar

[The Abominable SnowOther]

run bitch! RUN! ahhhhh! pick up a rock!

[jmondrag]

yeah reek was really good in this. Theon had that "not all there" look.

I agree, seeing him struggle with his emotions after Ramsay trolled him..The feels..

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

Holy shit Balerion???!

[shk12344]

Didn't D&D eliminate Ros because the actress didn't want to do anymore nude scenes?

No, far as I recall, she didn't want to die naked. She wanted to keep her clothes for her dieing scenes so the producers let her.

I believe her character was always meant to die.

[mafalda]

Loved EVERYTHING to do with the Dreadfort, first off. Glad to see my favorite villain (Roose) back in action, and seeing him and Ramsay interacting was amazing. And that was a fine bit of acting from Alfie when Ramsay told him about Robb :( Oh and Fat Walda... you KNOW Roose is riiiich!

Bronn would be the next best replacement for Ser Ilyn, so I have no gripes about that.

I have no words for the Stannis scene. And not in a good way.

I do have to say I'm conflicted about the way the showrunners are handling the Tyrion-Shae conflict. Shae had no reason to betray Tyrion when the time comes, which makes it even more horrible. But now they've given her a reason, which I feel like would make it not as bad when she betrays him. But then after I thought about it, I thought maybe that might make sense? I don't know.. :dunno:

Oh and it also brings up the interesting point of has Bronn been paid off already? Or did Shae somehow sneak her way off the ship?? Is Varys involved???

Loved the scene where Joff is presented with his gifts and proceeds to shred the daylights out of Tyrion's gift. Speaking of that part, I'm surprised they didn't put in the bit about him being used to Valyrian steel.. or have the show watchers and runners just completely forgotten about that small scene from season one?

Loved Oberyn's chat with the Lannisters and how he flat out does not care that Ellaria is there, and flaunts her and all her bastardness in front of them.

Overall, great episode! I'm rewatching again, because even though I saw where Olenna fussed with Sansa's necklace, I didn't see where any stones were removed. Oh and what was with that awkward, quick shot of the inside of the pie? And where any of the dwarves Penny? someone else here said that the one with the dog helmet was the only one we didn't see, but we did because it took off the helmet and started bucking up against it. Ugh. And I had to laugh at Renly "riding Loras" ugh Joff is such an asshole. On another hand, Jack Gleeson's wonderful acting will be missed.

Oh and one last thing. With having Jaime and Brienne arrive in KL so early, I thought they would actually have Jaime idly stand by while Joff died. Jaime has said in the books that he shows no paternal instinct towards Joffrey and does not consider the kids his, only Cersei's. So that combined with what an asshole Joff was to him last week (about his hand, then insults him with the book), then, I can't remember at what specifically, but Joff was being Joff again, and they showed a clip of Jaime rolling his eyes or something at him. I just KNEW he was going to stand there and do nothing when Joff dies, so it was out of character for him to rush in. Regardless of if he's in the white cloaks or not, and I knew it would throw a wrench into his relationship with Cersei. HE changes their relationship by turning him down. He's on a path to redemption and the showrunners are leaving out sooo many of his redeeming qualities. So the Unsullied look at me like I'm crazy when I say I like Jaime (yes he tried to kill a child and nothing changes that, but his story is interesting!) or when I say I want Stannis to be King (because look at how they portray him on the show).

Ok, back to the show!

[lostinwesteros]

Selyse: Their souls are with our Lord now. Their sins are burned away. Did you see?

Davis: I'm sure they're more than grateful, my Queen.

And, uh . . . Was Mel sitting at the head of the table facing Stannis?