[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

[jons nissa]

I've always thought that Tywin must have secretly been quite relieved that Joffrey was dead. Joffrey grown into adulthood with total power was a scary prospect; Joffrey would have had no qualms about killing Lannisters, including Tywin himself.

i agree that tywin was worried about joff and must have been relieved somewhat at his death given there was a second son to assume the throne. but there was the sharp lesson he was planning on teaching joff. i've always wondered about that but sharp lesson or not, in the end, tywin would have lost control of joffrey given his trajectory.

Selyse: Their souls are with our Lord now. Their sins are burned away. Did you see?
Davis: I'm sure they're more than grateful, my Queen.

And, uh . . . Was Mel sitting at the head of the table facing Stannis?

as jon said, we all know who stannis' real queen is.

Also, that whole convo with Bran about how he'll forget Winterfell and his familiy if he stays in his wolf for too long made me worry about Jon...I think the personality changes in him after he's resurrected are going to be more drastic than some people are anticipating. Maybe some Lord Beric style memory problems.

i'm worried about jon too. i always expected jon's personality to change but i wonder if there haven't been a few hints that he might live in ghost too long and become a shadow of what he was.

Was it just me or did the blood drain from Brienne's face as Cersei continued to stare at her silently? Then you have Jaime glancing over at them and probably thinking "OMG every fantasy I ever wanted!!!"

i kind of thought those glances from jaime showed worry and i doubt it was cersei he thought was getting harassed. and yes, poor brienne, but i don't believe cersei had enough on her to make that claim so she was clearly fishing and brienne bit. poor girl.

[nara]

Lack of anguished wail = shock =/= not loving her child. Loved that scene, great acting, wouldn't mind something more intense, but no problem.

Agreed (on your equation). I did like the wail in the books because 1) it was a reminder that even someone as evil as Joff can be loved and 2) Cersei is generally restrained in her public emotions prior to the PW, and I liked the lack of control in her reaction. But yeah, I can move on now. Really looking forward to the trial, etc.

[boojam]

And apparently I literally need a new TV because the resolution isn't showing this, but I've seen the screen capture. Still bummed though that it wasn't a purple amethyst.

Yeah, that seemed such a simple thing for the prop department to come up with.

[Cas Stark]

Yeah, that seemed such a simple thing for the prop department to come up with.

Agree, it's a TOTAL nitpick, but why not purple, and for that matter, why not a hairnet. The idea that she's going to realistically have a huge gemstone on her necklace missing and no one notice it....seems fairly unlikely.

[NightStark]

Agree, it's a TOTAL nitpick, but why not purple, and for that matter, why not a hairnet. The idea that she's going to realistically have a huge gemstone on her necklace missing and no one notice it....seems fairly unlikely.

The Tyrell's didn't care if she got caught after the deed was done.

[Frances Bean Corbray]

Agree, it's a TOTAL nitpick, but why not purple, and for that matter, why not a hairnet. The idea that she's going to realistically have a huge gemstone on her necklace missing and no one notice it....seems fairly unlikely.

Except that nobody's going to bother to look at Sansa. She's off to the side (literally at the end of the table, nobody's on her left) and the King's speech, the joust, and the pie presentation are all happening in the center.

Except Margaery, who keeps checking out Sansa's reaction to the offensive dwarf joust. Or maybe she's looking for... something else :)

Security is lax at Joffrey's wedding (hence showing us that half-assed security meeting with Joff, Jaime, and Trant last week). Nobody's anticipating an assassination plot, certainly not a poison one. [There's no Royal Food Taster! Show or Book! Talk about lax!] We only know to look for a missing gem on Sansa's attire because we have foreknowledge.

The Tyrell's didn't care if she got caught after the deed was done.

Also this. In fact, they're better served if she does get caught because it takes suspicion off of them.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Sour Robin

[White Harbors Wrath]

...and with all the stuff going on...no one on earth would be looking for peoples with missing gemstones on their necklaces, hairnets, rings or brooches. It's very likely that it would go completely unnoticed. We know it should be missing...who at the wedding is going to go "stop...nobody move!...someone here must have slipped a poison gemstone into the kings wine! check everyone's necklaces!"

They could safely assume Tyrion slipped him something but jumping to the conclusion that it was a poison gemstone?

[Colonel Green]

From reading the books I always suspected that It was Tywin that poisoned Joffrey

That makes no sense whatsoever, and you would have to completely ignore the actual events. If Tywin wanted rid of Joffrey, there were a million was to do it that didn't needlessly squander strategic assets like Sansa (whose loss makes a ruin of Tywin's Northern dynastic strategy).

[Cas Stark]

That makes no sense whatsoever, and you would have to completely ignore the actual events. If Tywin wanted rid of Joffrey, there were a million was to do it that didn't needlessly squander strategic assets like Sansa (whose loss makes a ruin of Tywin's Northern dynastic strategy).

Never mind, you know, that he started a war over the dwarf son he despises....but he's going to murder his grandson, LOL, who can quite easily dope up on milk of the poppy for the forseeable future if the sharp lesson doesn't bring him in line. But, people have all kinds of whacked out theories.

[ovis alba]

I'm sorry. But I have to ask.

Why couldn't Olenna simply just carry the poison herself?

In the books I always wondred if the Tyrells and Littlefinger made the plan together and Littlefinger agreed to use Sansa so she could get blamed afterwards so the Tyrells and him would be safe (she sure has enough reason to do so), but it might have fitted LF to have his very own plans in addition, which was not only killing Joffrey, but also getting Sansa out, not caring who gets blamed in the end, because he and Sansa are gone and he doesn't need the Tyrells anymore.

[LifeRuiner]

One thing I didn't like was the girl with Ramsay. I think it detracts from his character. Ramsay does not respect women enough to have one as a partner in sadistic crime. She will probably turn out to be a great character and add to the show, which is cool and all, but they shouldn't have done that.

That's how I felt as well.

[Conchobar]

Honest question about books and show both: is there any possibility of a two-part poison, where two ingredients need to be combined to kill? In other stories that's often how would-be killers protect themselves. Or if there's an antidote that Margaery had already taken?

(Written as someone who still isn't quite sure what happened in the books either.)

Very interesting! But I don't think so, I am sure we would have been made aware of that to some degree in the books if it was a thing.

[MarieAntoinette]

Wow, I feel this episode went by really fast. First of all, Jack Gleeson did an awesome job bringing Joffrey to life throughout the seasons of GOT, he was in top form during his scenes at the wedding too, I'll miss him.The make-up department did a great job with his face, it looked quite gruesome. I was a bit underwhelmed by Cersei's display of grief, I thought she would be a little more expressive. Edit: I have just watched the preview for Episode 3, and that part with Cersei screaming is more like I expected that she would react. So maybe it was just postponed to the next episode.

Things I loved:

Loras and his reply to Jaime and him storming off at the wedding feast

Oberyn and his exchange with Cersei and Tywin. Ellaria Sand looked great.

The war of the five kings played out by the dwarfs. This was far better and more cruel than the book scence. Poor Sansa! I really felt for her when the Robb Stark dwarf lost his "head".

The QoT shouting and her unconvincing "Help poor Joffrey", this made me chuckle

The execution by fire made me very uncomfortable. I absolutely hate religious fanaticism, this scene was hard to watch. This is more a personal preference than a nitpick, but the actor playing Ramsay does nothing for me. I can't stand his voice and demeanor, and I don't like that he has a girl sidekick. I was impressed with the performance of Alfie Allen though and loved that we got to see Fat Walda.

Edited April 14, 2014 by MarieAntoinette

[Impfan]

Please, let's stop all the nonsensical fantasies about Olenna somehow getting the poison from Sansa's necklace. The close up only shows her hand on a stone; it does not show the stone removed from Sansa's necklace. It never was. Removal would have required much more force than could have been done in a subtle way. I think the whole Sansa necklace gambit is a teaser put in by either or both of GRRM and D&D. I think Dontos imploring Sansa to get away to save her life is part of this con. How did Dontos know at this point that Joff was even dead. Anybody who thinks the whole "Here, Sansa, please take my mother's necklace" crap is part of some conspiracy with Olenna is out of their minds. She'd never trust somebody like Dontos as a co-conspirator.

I can only imagine the Olenna?Dontos/Sanas scenario if it was cooked up by Olenna as one of two alternative strategies for get the good stuff into Joff's cup. It was probably a back-up to the main plot: put the poison into Margery's wedding necklace and get it from there at the opportune moment. Sansa/Dontos was just a hedge.

Why do you think the QofT was so obsessed with Margery's wedding necklace in Ep.401? It was so she could get one she could jury-rig it with a poisoned jewel easily removable at the right time. Olenna could not have assumed she'd have a chance to get the poison into Joff's cup without involving Margery in some way. Margery put the cup in front of the QofT when she had the chance and voila!

I watched the Sansa/OofT interaction at eh wedding many times. I didnt see Olenna remove one of the jewels from Sansa's necklace. Maybe she did but you really can't tell.

[NightStark]

I watched the Sansa/OofT interaction at eh wedding many times. I didnt see Olenna remove one of the jewels from Sansa's necklace. Maybe she did but you really can't tell.

All the stones were there...she touched a stone...then that stone clearly disappeared.

Yeah you can't tell at all.

[Conchobar]

Yeah for some reason I can't take Ramsay as seriously now that he has a female sidekick. It would have been better if it was a group of men around his age, his so called "buddies" who are actually just terrified of him.

[NightStark]

Woman adds an extra dynamic to it because people don't expect that sort of cruelty from a woman.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

...and with all the stuff going on...no one on earth would be looking for peoples with missing gemstones on their necklaces, hairnets, rings or brooches. It's very likely that it would go completely unnoticed. We know it should be missing...who at the wedding is going to go "stop...nobody move!...someone here must have slipped a poison gemstone into the kings wine! check everyone's necklaces!"

Precisely. We all knew what we were looking for, and I'm not aware of a single person who noticed the QoT pluck or plant the stone without the assistance of slo-motion instant replay.

They don't want it on any of them in case things go wrong and the mission has to be aborted/gets found out before they get their chance. Not only must they kill Joffrey, but they must kill him in such a way that someone else looks guilty and House Tyrell is above and beyond even the hint of suspicion. [so in case they miss their chance, they can get another.]

They want it on them for as short a time as possible, and they want it in play for as short a time as possible, so that Marge doesn't have to avoid drinking from Joffrey's goblet for a conspicuous amount of time.

Fair point, but doesn't the act of planting it on Sansa prior to and then retrieving it during the ceremony expose her to much more risk? It seems like the odds of her screwing up her slight-of-hand magic trick in front of thousands of people are much greater than an old lady being frisked by the completely uninterested gold cloaks. She can integrate a poison stone into a piece of jewelry but she can't sew a hidden pocket?

[boojam]

Also this. In fact, they're better served if she does get caught because it takes suspicion off of them.

In the book Sansa and Dontos have this long set up of her escape, tho she apparently does not figure out what is going on.

So LF HAD to know way ahead of time what was going down ... frankly I can't remember his direct involvement in the book, seems to be there.

He knew that Sansa would have to be saved and what better way than the wedding poisoning riot?

Anyway it was Dontos who gave Sansa (the hairnet in the book), which points to even more LF involvement.

I don't think it's happened in the books yet has it?, that it is found out that Sansa is at the Eyrie with LF.

Bingo! LF implicated again!

Edited April 14, 2014 by boojam

[NightStark]

Precisely. We all knew what we were looking for, and I'm not aware of a single person who noticed the QoT pluck or plant the stone without the assistance of slo-motion instant replay.

Fair point, but doesn't the act of planting it on Sansa prior to and then retrieving it during the ceremony expose her to much more risk? It seems like the odds of her screwing up her slight-of-hand magic trick in front of thousands of people are much greater than an old lady being frisked by the completely uninterested gold cloaks. She can integrate a poison stone into a piece of jewelry but she can't sew a hidden pocket?

It just makes it all a bit more interesting, don't read too much into it.