[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

[Northernmonkey]

See this is my main issue from a book-reader's point of view. Just a little bit more attention to detail on their part would give us a bit more of a satisfaction buzz in noticing little details like that without necessarily altering a scene at all. It almost feels lazy at times.

I don't see how it's important whether they have Joffrey clawing at his throat or not. It doesn't alter the story in any way so why does it matter? I would rather D+D use their own skills in making TV rather than copying every tiny little detail from the books, which presumably weren't written with a TV audience in mind.

[NightStark]

Wasn't it kinda confirmed CH wouldn't be making an appearance? I can't remember where I read it, to be honest, was an interview, but I kinda assumed he just wasn't going to be in the series. Would be nice to be proven otherwise though lol

I dunno, I was thinking he would be left out but I just noticed that ep.4 has Bran etc. finding 'shelter' but ep.10 is called 'The Children' according to the Wiki, so shelter might not mean BR cave just yet.

They could find a hut and be attacked and saved by CH as a suprise..I dunno..just something I noticed.

[Raksha 2014]

GRRM comments on the episode, as reported by Dark Horizons

http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/31672/-game-of-thrones-author-talks-purple-wedding

NB - GRRM talks in terms of the books - referring to Joffrey as "a thirteen year old".

Interesting comments, but they relate far more to the book than to the actual episode. TV-Joffrey definitely looks older than 13, he looks at least 16; I didn't see a 'young boy' dying in his mother's arms, I saw a teenager or young man. And I didn't see enough horror/terror in Cersei while Joffrey died, it's as if she shut down until after he died and then started to go ballistic. (one moment that really impressed me in the book, after Joffrey died, if I remember right, it was Tywin who pulled Cersei away from his body; it was the one time he acted like her father rather than the grand Lannister chessmaster)

What brought home the horror of the death of this young king in the TV episode was not his mother's reaction, but Jaime's. Jaime ran toward the boy, calling him by name rather than a royal title, trying to help in some way as Joffrey was choking his life away. Whether Jaime reacted as a father (unlikely, since he'd never felt like a father to Joffrey) or an uncle (which he was) or Kingsguard (unlikely, or he would have called the boy "Sire" or "Your Grace") or as the one who had loved Joffrey's mother in every way since they were young children, in that moment, he was terribly afraid for Joffrey and came to his aid.

[NightStark]

I don't see how it's important whether they have Joffrey clawing at his throat or not. It doesn't alter the story in any way so why does it matter? I would rather D+D use their own skills in making TV rather than copying every tiny little detail from the books, which presumably weren't written with a TV audience in mind.

Exactly, the clawing at his throat helps you to visualise the book death, I don't think the show death needed anymore help. The makeup detail alone made it horrid.

I think some readers go overboard demanding details, it's often pretty apparent what is going on. You could see the anguish on Cat's face last year..we didn't need the face clawing for example.

Edited April 14, 2014 by NightStark

[WhiteFang]

Damn, i really want CH to be in it, cause i'm in (i think the fairly large camp) that think he's Benjen Stark.

I never understood this theory.

Leaf, who is 200 years old, describes CH as having been killed "long ago".

Two years (?) is not a long time for a creature that's lived for two centuries.

Also, Bran never recognizes CH as his uncle, despite hearing his voice and seeing the top of his face.

Hopefully we find out what happened to Ben, but I doubt he's CH.

[Janicia]

Jaime mentioned “the entertainment” in the first episode. I’m pretty sure he knew that there would be a dwarf troupe. I think he felt that it was beyond his pay grade to intervene and not worth sticking his neck out. I wonder if Tywin knew – seems like he would want to avoid publicly humiliating Tyrion and sticking it to the Tyrells.

[TheRatCook]

Melisandre should already have been saying "infidel" -- it's a perfectly sensible word for how she views non-believers, and fits in to our contemporary life. The audience immediately understands that the person uttering it is a religiously intolerant totalitarian.

But Stannis? Ridiculous. But, I suppose it's just more of the same thing that HBO has been doing in making his character dishonorable.

I agree. There is too much deviation and it is ruining show Stannis.

[Goody2shoes15]

Exactly, the clawing at his throat helps you to visualise the book death, I don't think the show death needed anymore help. The makeup detail alone made it horrid.

I think some readers go overboard demanding details, it's often pretty apparent what is going on. You could see the anguish on Cat's face last year..we didn't need the face clawing for example.

I don't see how it's important whether they have Joffrey clawing at his throat or not. It doesn't alter the story in any way so why does it matter? I would rather D+D use their own skills in making TV rather than copying every tiny little detail from the books, which presumably weren't written with a TV audience in mind.

Ok maybe not the clawing exactly, but there's been other moments. A better example from that exact scene is how I didn't think they handled Cersei's reaction very well. They spent a lot of time showing her inner conflict about Joffrey, the struggle of watching the monster he became vs the baby she loved so much, and i think it worked very well. She should have been more distraught than she was. For her to turn around almost instantly and go for Tyrion wasn't necessary, she didn't need to notice he was pointing at him, everyone who could see him would have noticed that, she should have been too beside herself with grief. It's is a massive turning point for her character and I think they didn't quite handle it as they should have. GRRM has been quoted as saying in several interviews he wanted viewers to realise that a child has been killed and that at that moment she is a mother grieving, but I don't think they pulled it off.

[Aderyn]

Shit, I've been following the discussion here for too long and now this thread has almost doubled it's length...

Well, what can I say. I have this very empty feeling like I always do when seeing a major scene from the books played on screen. I liked the episode, it felt a bit tight-packed at first but when the focus shifted entirely to the wedding it became more balanced.

The opening was interesting. It was indeed clever of D&D to start with the Bastard of Bolton, just to remind us that here's another character to be hated. I liked the Roose-Ramsay-Theon interaction very much. It was also lovely to see Bran again, although that weirwood tree vision felt... I don't know, not subtle enough or something. But interesting, I'll have to return to that scene episode for a more meticulous watch. The Stannis part had some very interesting scenes, like the awkward dinner talk and Melisandre and Shireen's conversation. This really increased my curiousness about Shireen, what a smart little girl, and how calm she seemed in Mel's presence... Also yay, a short glimpse of Davos! been missing yah!

I didn't think there was anything weird or disturbing about Tyrion and Shae's scene. It all seemed very clear to me. Varys had been warning Tyrion for some time, he'd been thinking about getting rid of her for a long time... And when Tyrion finally told her to leave it rang so much of Tysha. He forced himself to finally admit what a fool he was for (seemingly) falling in love with a whore - again. And when Bronn told he'd take her to the ship... well, that's when it got suspicious. She's told to leave and then it's just that, she disappears. I don't think she's actually left King's Landing at all. I'm pretty sure Bronn is no longer loyal to Tyrion (if he, a sellsword every truly was), he took Shae somewhere else (to Varys, perhaps?) and she'll be found in Tywin's chambers later in this season. That seems like a scene they wouldn't leave out. At least I really, really hope so.......

Oh, the wedding... It was rather nicely done. So much delicious character interaction not seen in the books... I'm going to have to hand a trophy to Loras as well, that was one sweet burn... I was trying to keep track of every major character in the wedding ceremony, every sneaky hint about the poisoning etc. so it was a lot of fun to watch. Then finally, Joff's death -- that was very much like I had imagined! I absolutely love Jack Gleeson, this was the perfect way to end his swan song. It was tragic and really showed Joffrey as the young boy he really is. Cersei's reaction bothered me however, but since that was when all her suspicions about Tyrion reached a peak, her flashing rage was understandable. We'll see more of a mother lamenting her son in the next episode...

[Cas Stark]

I just don't think that Lena was up to the acting task of the level of Book Cersei's complete emotional meltdown, I can't see why else they wouldn't have done it, as it was, a true turning point for her, where she sheds one more level of her relationship to objective reality in favor of her own version of truth.

[Lady cut throat]

The beginning of the episode with Ramsay chasing that girl through the woods was so damn good in such a sadistic way. I thought it was more sinister because he had his girlfriend(?) partaking too and I think that kind of thing is always a bit more shocking when a woman is involved. Being the gentler sex and all.

The episode on a whole was generally uncomfortable viewing which was perfect! especially poor Tyrion at the wedding, you can just feel that humiliation through the TV screen.

I thought the show made the whole Tyrion/Shae break up better than the book and shows the way for Shae's betrayal of Tyrion and why (I don't think the book gave a good explanation for this really). I have to agree though, Lena didn't do Cersei any justice but then maybe it's because we are comparing the scene to the Catelyn/Robb one.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Lady cut throat

[ovis alba]

I just watched the Olenna/Sansa scene again and she is clearly first going once over her hair and the second time taking a stone from the necklace, while saying "killing a man at a wedding, ... what a monster would do that", in the next shot on Sansa there is a empty "hook" on the necklace where a stone should have been, to me that part is perfectly clear.

What happens afterwards is more of a guess. Olenna could give the stone to Margaery right afterwards when she passes by her to get to her seat. To me in the show that seems likely because before Joffrey drinks out of the cup Olenna is not really close enough to the cup to put it in herself, basically Margaery is the only one that is.

(It's actually fun sorting it out :D )

[KhalDrewby]

I'm back to thinking they're going to have Tywin kill Shae and it will be a total total whitewash of the whole thing.

This wouldn't surprise me. I remember reading somewhere that a few changes will be made in the season to keep the book readers on their toes as well as the unsullied. Maybe this will be used as another reason for Tyrion to kinslay?

Edited April 14, 2014 by KhalDrewby

[Chebyshov]

I just don't think that Lena was up to the acting task of the level of Book Cersei's complete emotional meltdown, I can't see why else they wouldn't have done it, as it was, a true turning point for her, where she sheds one more level of her relationship to objective reality in favor of her own version of truth.

I think you're doing Lena a disservice. She was practically frothing at the mouth at the end of the last episode. I think we'll have to wait and see, but I have faith in her.

[The Taxman]

I'm highly disappointed they did not mention that Oberyn had a fetish in the arts of poisoning that would have even gave Melisandre a run for her money.

But maybe they will do it next episode?

"Why the dwarf? What about the Red Viper? Who in Westeros would have knowledge of such a deadly poison but him?"

[Rob Snow]

Still no Patchface in the Stannis storyline :(

viewers gonna miss all the creepyniss :stillsick:

No Patchface.

No Butterbumps

No JingleBells.

Only Dontos, who is a fool in name only.

D&D are missing the boat. The fools are one of the great things about the courts of each of the Lord/Royal houses.

Plus, in the case of patchface, how are they going to introduce all the creepy prophetic stuff he spouts off?

[NightStark]

No Patchface.

No Butterbumps

No JingleBells.

Only Dontos, who is a fool in name only.

D&D are missing the boat. The fools are one of the great things about the courts of each of the Lord/Royal houses.

Plus, in the case of patchface, how are they going to introduce all the creepy prophetic stuff he spouts off?

They haven't really got time to give all of Patchface's backstory with Stannis' parents etc. Plus they're kind of going for a more realistic story overall that the non readers won't laugh at...no blue beared Daario etc. PF would upset that a bit.

I think Shireen was giving some of his prophecies last year.

Edited April 14, 2014 by NightStark

[Goody2shoes15]

I just don't think that Lena was up to the acting task of the level of Book Cersei's complete emotional meltdown, I can't see why else they wouldn't have done it, as it was, a true turning point for her, where she sheds one more level of her relationship to objective reality in favor of her own version of truth.

I think the crticism could maybe be levelled more at the director/scriptwriter (sorry GRRM!) Lena usually delivers Cersei's stuff exceptionally well, and I do think she's capable of going over that precipice that is the edge of sanity, but she needs the right words and direction to do it.

[The Taxman]

I just watched the Olenna/Sansa scene again and she is clearly first going once over her hair and the second time taking a stone from the necklace, while saying "killing a man at a wedding, ... what a monster would do that", in the next shot on Sansa there is a empty "hook" on the necklace where a stone should have been, to me that part is perfectly clear.

What happens afterwards is more of a guess. Olenna could give the stone to Margaery right afterwards when she passes by her to get to her seat. To me in the show that seems likely because before Joffrey drinks out of the cup Olenna is not really close enough to the cup to put it in herself, basically Margaery is the only one that is.

(It's actually fun sorting it out :D )

After Olenna takes the stone, as she is walking pass Joffrey's cup you head a distinct "Cling" sound as if something solid touched a chalice if your volume is high enough. Olenna took the stone and slipped it in the cup. I just don't know how the stone dissolved in the cup. Marg didn't do anything but she definitely knew the plan.

[Waylin Stark]

I really liked the makeup department's work.

I expected Joffrey to simply go purple and keep clawing at his face, but the blood from the nose, the red lips, and the bloody eyes were all a magnificent touch. Made it clear he was poisoned and didn't choke, which somehow seems more deadly.