[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

[Rob Snow]

They haven't really got time to give all of Patchface's backstory with Stannis' parents etc. Plus they're kind of going for a more realistic story overall that the non readers won't laugh at...no blue beared Daario etc. PF would upset that a bit.

I think Shireen was giving some of his prophecies last year.

I get that screentime and casting budget limitations are the reason, but the creepy/funny factor with each of the fools, is just the thing that gives the ASOIaF world it's depth and flavor.

Little touches like Lady Olenna having her bodyguards (Left and Right) is another examples.

I know that adding ancillary characters to the biggest cast in TV history makes no sense, but everyone has their favorites, and I am just a fan of fools, I guess.

[ovis alba]

After Olenna takes the stone, as she is walking pass Joffrey's cup you head a distinct "Cling" sound as if something solid touched a chalice if your volume is high enough. Olenna took the stone and slipped it in the cup. I just don't know how the stone dissolved in the cup. Marg didn't do anything but she definitely knew the plan.

I hear the sound, I just doubt it's the stone. Before Joffrey drinks from it he pours the whole content over Tyrion, so I asume the poison had to get in there afterwards.

[ovis alba]

Something different: I read by quiet a few people that Joffreys death was not "cruel" enough for them, I however always found it extremly well fitting.

In the end, he really is just a pretty young boy that treats people however he wants to, because he feels untouchable. He is protected by his guards, by his mother, his uncle, his grandfather and just plainly by the fact he is king and everyone has to love him. That's why he dares to be the way he is, because of all the people surrounding and protecting him. For him then to die with all these people standing right there, watching him, but not being able to do anything because he might have all the power in the world but he and none of his tons of people are able to fight the very blunt and almost boring, unglamorous fact that a piece of cake (or actually a sip of wine) is making him choke, I just love it. There is probably hardly any death less heroic than this one and I think this is what would bother Joffrey a lot.

[Needle's Pointy End]

After Olenna takes the stone, as she is walking pass Joffrey's cup you head a distinct "Cling" sound as if something solid touched a chalice if your volume is high enough. Olenna took the stone and slipped it in the cup. I just don't know how the stone dissolved in the cup. Marg didn't do anything but she definitely knew the plan.

He would have died much sooner if that was the case as he was drinking wine watching the dwarfs ect... The poison was put in his cup sometime when he gave Margaery his wine glass so he could cut the pigeon pie to when he made Tyrion give him his glass of wine to wash down his Pigeon Pie.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Needle's Pointy End

[jons nissa]

i'm wondering if the unsullied will connect the death of the first sons at their wedding parallel between cersei and catelyn.

[Needle's Pointy End]

I hear the sound, I just doubt it's the stone. Before Joffrey drinks from it he pours the whole content over Tyrion, so I asume the poison had to get in there afterwards.

Some time in the pigeon pie time frame...

[Falcon of Arryn]

Some time in the pigeon pie time frame...

I watched it over, and it looked like Olenna hadn't moved. It would have been terribly suspicious of her to do so.

However, notice that Joff hands Margaery his cup, and she puts it down without taking a sip. I'm thinking that it could have been her that slipped it in.

A possible problem with my theory is Margaery's discussion with her mother in the next episode, shown in the preview. She doesn't seem to happy with it.

[ovis alba]

If there is anything about Margaery it's that she is doing her duty. I think she might have not been happy with the plan, but if Olenna told her to do it, she would have done, whatever is asked of her, no matter how she feels about it.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

See this is my main issue from a book-reader's point of view. Just a little bit more attention to detail on their part would give us a bit more of a satisfaction buzz in noticing little details like that without necessarily altering a scene at all. It almost feels lazy at times.

It was always going to be hard to fill half an episode while working around the PW. They managed it better for the RW because scenes like the hound and arya were still tying into it. Imo there was actually too much of the wedding, it went beyond anticipation and went to the point of 'Oh my god, just show it already'

The interrelation of the various storylines (or lack thereof) is definitely a part of the challenge. I think the bigger problem, however, is that the inherent lack of storyline-resolution promotes a general lack of scene-resolution (or put another way, lazy writing). As a viewer I don't expect things to be tied up in a neat little bow, particularly in this genre, but I do expect some sort of fulfillment.

Case in point: Ep 1 opened with the reforging of Ice, roll VTR, then Tywin gives Jaime his sword and disowns him (sort of). I still have no idea what happened to the 2nd sword, I don't know if Jaime was actually disowned, and I don't really know why he's smiling about it, but I don't feel jerked around when they smash cut to KL because the scene was resolved (same thing when they cut away from Oberyn after his line about repaying debts).

I'm not a good judge of whether they resolved the opening scene last night because I've pretty much lost all interest in Ramsay Snow (I get it, he's a sadist, Theon is ruined). The breakfast with Jaime and Tyrion set up Bronn nicely, but when we cut away from them on the waterfront I did feel jerked around because I was still expecting to get something out of it other than some pointless dialogue and sparring. It was a stark contrast (Get it? Stark?) from the scene in Season 1 with Syrio and Arya.

Other than Tyrion sending Harry back into the woods to avoid the hunters - I mean Shae to Pentos to avoid his father - there wasn't much in the way of scene transition or resolution in Ep 2. I think that's what makes it feel like nothing is happening, even when sometimes something really big is happening.

[NightStark]

A possible problem with my theory is Margaery's discussion with her mother in the next episode, shown in the preview. She doesn't seem to happy with it.

You have to remember that Olenna told her she has to be careful what she says even when they're seemingly alone.

Little birds everywhere so it's best that she express disappointment at his death than say 'Nice teamwork the other day':p

Edited April 14, 2014 by NightStark

[Conchobar]

I am annoyed that they have not shown Balon's death yet, considering they almost implied his drowning in the dwarf joust at the wedding. Well more confused than annoyed.

[TheRatCook]

I never understood this theory.

Leaf, who is 200 years old, describes CH as having been killed "long ago".

Two years (?) is not a long time for a creature that's lived for two centuries.

Also, Bran never recognizes CH as his uncle, despite hearing his voice and seeing the top of his face.

Hopefully we find out what happened to Ben, but I doubt he's CH.

I agree. I don't buy Coldhands is Benjen.

[NightStark]

I am annoyed that they have not shown Balon's death yet, considering they almost implied his drowning in the dwarf joust at the wedding. Well more confused than annoyed.

If they'd shown his death before Joffrey's the non readers would have twigged that Joffrey would die soon because of how Stannis' named them when burning the leeches last year.

[Chebyshov]

If they'd shown his death before Joffrey's the non readers would have twigged that Joffrey would die soon because of how Stannis' named them when burning the leeches last year.

Good point. Also people could just gloss over that line as them mocking Greyjoys out on their islands. I didn't notice it at all, truthfully, until I read about it in this forum.

[Falcon of Arryn]

You have to remember that Olenna told her she has to be careful what she says even when they're seemingly alone.

Little birds everywhere so it's best that she express disappointment at his death than say 'Nice teamwork the other day':p

Did Varys really not know of the plot already? I find that hard to believe.

[Needle's Pointy End]

I watched it over, and it looked like Olenna hadn't moved. It would have been terribly suspicious of her to do so.

However, notice that Joff hands Margaery his cup, and she puts it down without taking a sip. I'm thinking that it could have been her that slipped it in.

A possible problem with my theory is Margaery's discussion with her mother in the next episode, shown in the preview. She doesn't seem to happy with it.

It's not your theory as people including myself have been saying this the entire thread.... and Olenna is not her mother. Olenna is her grandmother...

[NightStark]

Did Varys really not know of the plot already? I find that hard to believe.

Just because we know that he likely knew doesn't mean that the Tyrell's knew that too.

They still have to play thair cards close to their chest.

Edited April 14, 2014 by NightStark

[~DarkHorse~]

I loved everyone's reactions to the mockery of the kings during the dwarves performance. Olenna wasn't amused, Loras storming away, Margaery being very displeased and Oberyn sitting stony faced in the clapping crowd obviously thinking 'how effing disrespectful...so not funny.' It's good to know some who didn't have a direct relationship with the Kings still have some respect for them....unlike Cersei who enjoyed Renly riding Loras way too much and Tywin smiling at joffreys amusement. Although, Sansa really stole that scene with her cold, yet crying inside gaze. Excellent scene and very well acted!

[The Taxman]

He would have died much sooner if that was the case as he was drinking wine watching the dwarfs ect... The poison was put in his cup sometime when he gave Margaery his wine glass so he could cut the pigeon pie to when he made Tyrion give him his glass of wine to wash down his Pigeon Pie.

The big misinterpretation from both unsullied and bookreaders are that they believed this poison is a rapid acting poison and that the poison was in the wine itself.

The poison is immersed into the golden chalice itself. Joffrey was already poisoned during the Dwarf jousting spectacle. After he sips his drink during the spectacle, you could already see how disoriented he was when he got up off his seat to congratulate the performers (people probably thought he was drunk, but no he was not, he was really disoriented).

[ovis alba]

That would be too much of of a coincidence for me as he starts choking exactly when he started drinking again. Slow poison ok, but it sets in the exact moment he starts drinking from the cup again is unlikely. And if it's in the cup to start with the stone from Sansas necklace wouldn't be needed. So, nah not really buying it.