[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

[VladimirDulud]

Suddenly I regret reading the books before watching the show.

Sigh. What a let down. I thought this was gonna be the episode of the century. I'm so worried that the show is losing its edge.

I too regret reading the books. They set quite a few bars that are quite high for a dramatic production to meet.

There is something about the way the wedding was rushed, to my mind, that was the first red flag.

There was quite a lot of hoopla surrounding the episode - everything from the lavish production to the cameos etc. - so I was surprised to see that they rushed through certain things.

I was really expecting a longer ceremony, with perhaps more scenes detailing guest star reactions, for one.

The work that went into the costumes, esp. Margaery's, would have been fantastic to spotlight - maybe a scene where we see her try it on?

That may have been a tad fetishistic for lovers of the show, but still - the production is a beautiful one and I feel like I missed quite a lot of the artistry somehow.

The scene with Ramsay and Reek were strong, but could have been included in a later episode. I would have made use of the show's penchant for sexposition to instead do some 'production-design-exposition' - using props, sigils of the various houses present, - to establish the totality of the world of the past three seasons.

The manner in which the potential poisoning was produced also seemed strange. I watched the episode with someone who had not read the books and had no idea what was going to happen - there is really no way to tell what exactly happened.

Which indicates something to do with story design, of course.

Overall, it felt like a missed opportunity...

[The Taxman]

And magically resublimates conveniantly whenever needed?

To ME that does not make any sense compared to putting poison in the drink before someone actually drinks it and then chokes to death right after he drank it. Otherwise the timing of the whole thing would be way to random to play out so perfectly when he drinks from the cup, Tyrion hands him. If there is too much conincidence I rather go with what makes way more sense.

I see where you're coming from. When Joffrey pours the wine over Tyrion's head, Tyrion does taste it and it does not kill him so we can rule out the poison taking effect at any moment prior. But Olenna definitely slipped the crystal into the chalice as she walks by Joffrey's cup because we can hear a distinct chime when we see her arm does the dropping motion.

If the poison was in its crystallization state, it would readily dissolve in any solvent so how the hell do you explain that? Could Marg have taken the crystal out of the chalice? No. I did not see it and it just isn't plausible.

My take is GRRM didn't completely understand the science behind the method so there will be several loopholes. Even when LF was explaining to Sansa in the books I was still confused as to how it actually went down.

[Needle's Pointy End]

And magically resublimates conveniantly whenever needed?

To ME that does not make any sense compared to putting poison in the drink before someone actually drinks it and then chokes to death right after he drank it. Otherwise the timing of the whole thing would be way to random to play out so perfectly when he drinks from the cup, Tyrion hands him. If there is too much conincidence I rather go with what makes way more sense.

Who had the Pigeon Pie made? The Tyrell's? Joffery could have been poisoned earlier in the episode with the stone in his wine but eating the pie created a chemical reaction with the poisoned wine he already drank. Notice Margaery didn't eat any pie... she just fed it to Joffery.

[Rill Redthorn]

But Olenna definitely slipped the crystal into the chalice as she walks by Joffrey's cup because we can hear a distinct chime when we see her arm does the dropping motion.

I went back and viewed that "chime" part several times and I don't actually think it was meant to represent the chime of the poison crystal hitting anything. The view of Olenna was across the courtyard and there were several tables of diners in the way; the "clink" sound that happens as Olenna's arm moves to me sounded like it was meant to be a wineglass knocking against silverware or a plate -- normal dining noise, basically, not an audio clue. No one standing where the camera was when the chime was heard would have been able to hear anything because Olenna was too far away and there was too much else going on.

I do think that Olenna's arm going back was her dropping the crystal in the pocket of her gown, but that wouldn't make any noise of course. And it might be a coincidence: Diana Rigg might have needed to adjust her costume right at that moment by happenstance.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Rill Redthorn

[The Taxman]

The chalice was pretty much right in front of Olenna when Joffrey cut the pie right? she could of just dropped it then.

When Joffrey cut the pie, Olenna's ass was all the way at another table. Nowhere near the chalice.

[ireallyknownothing]

I am so going to wear this: http://teespring.com/thispieisdry

[ovis alba]

To me it's still way to complicated this way. Yes, I do here something, but s it really the stone? I can not tell. Is it really Joffreys cup? I can not even see it clearly there? Or is it maybe Margaerys cup or plate she drops it in/on to hand it over to her? Or does she just drop it in Margaerys lap and the sound is from the musicians or someone dropping a sword?

To me putting it in Joffereys cup at that very moment seems extremly risky, which seems unlikely when a poison is hidden so well to start with. It visually and timely doesn't make any sense to me either to poison him an hour in advance just for him to spill his wine over Tyrion who tries it and doesn't get sick and then to collapse right at that moment where we actually do see him drink from that cup that went through Margaerys hands just before and was standing there unattended while the pie was brought, with the cup also standing pretty close to Olenna, who we see getting the stone before.

It just doesn't play out for me.

Edited April 14, 2014 by ovis alba

[Needle's Pointy End]

When Joffrey cut the pie, Olenna's ass was all the way at another table. Nowhere near the chalice.

Agreed... I do not believe Olenna physically put the dissolving poison stone in Joffery's wine. Olenna had to have given that duty to Margaery. There is a theory that Olenna could have given the stone to a wine server employed by littlefinger to put the stone in the Joffery's wine pitcher on his table, but the wine that Tyrion pored for Joffery was from Tywin and the Mother of Madness's table.

The only way Margaery didn't actually physically do it was if Olenna passed it off to a littlefinger wine server and the wine actually poisoned both Margaery and Joffery earlier, but the poison wouldn't activate unless the pigeon pie was eaten.... Olenna could have told Margaery " What ever you do, do not eat the Pigeon Pie. Your life depends on it "

[Lionessoftherock]

When Joffrey cut the pie, Olenna's ass was all the way at another table. Nowhere near the chalice.

Why does it have to be Olenna physically? Just because dearest grandma is the brain of the operation, doesn't mean her granddaughter couldn't slip it in.. Olenna protecting Margaery and Margaery making sure she gets the softer king, who is easily manipulated. Both had a reason.

[The Taxman]

Why does it have to be Olenna physically? Just because dearest grandma is the brain of the operation, doesn't mean her granddaughter couldn't slip it in.. Olenna protecting Margaery and Margaery making sure she gets the softer king, who is easily manipulated. Both had a reason.

You're quoting me out of context here, little cub. I was pointing out exactly that, that it couldn't have been Olenna "physically" at that moment in time.

[iknownothingjonsnow]

I went back and viewed that "chime" part several times and I don't actually think it was meant to represent the chime of the poison crystal hitting anything. The view of Olenna was across the courtyard and there were several tables of diners in the way; the "clink" sound that happens as Olenna's arm moves to me sounded like it was meant to be a wineglass knocking against silverware or a plate -- normal dining noise, basically, not an audio clue. No one standing where the camera was when the chime was heard would have been able to hear anything because Olenna was too far away and there was too much else going on.

I do think that Olenna's arm going back was her dropping the crystal in the pocket of her gown, but that wouldn't make any noise of course. And it might be a coincidence: Diana Rigg might have needed to adjust her costume right at that moment by happenstance.

Certainly possible. It's highly coincidental that, at the exact moment she passes the offending chalice, she makes that motion and we hear that sound, but it's definitely circumstantial.

I sincerely hope that "offending chalice" is a term I get to use many more times in my life, though I'm sadly skeptical.

[Moët]

As much as I hated Joff, I will miss Jack Gleeson. He is done acting now. He is so good I wish he would keep it up, but I totally respect his choice to leave it. He had an awesome death scene.

This³.

[CommanderBC]

So. It's most likely they have cut Coldhands out of the show.

He could still make an appearance, but since Sam never met him, and Bran havn't met him yet. In e02 says Bran says "I know where we have to go". I would say the chances that they cut him out is pretty good..

What would it mean? I think the mystery of who he is, and how he can be dead and a goody is one of the book's deepest secrets.

IF they have cut him out, would that be evidence that he is indeed just a dead crow, controlled by tCoTF to help important persons make their goal? I think so, even though I would be happily surprised if he turned out to be either Benjen or The Night King.

Edited April 14, 2014 by CommanderBC

[Moët]

Can someone please just screencap this already?

game-of-thrones-season-4-purple-wedding-explained-2.jpg

[Lady Fevre Dream]

LOLOLOLOL! You DO realize that GRRM wrote this episode, don't you?

It's HIS character, and if you and he differ on the nature of that character, who do you think is more likely to be right?

Anyway, I think the scene demonizes Melisandre and Selyse far more than it does Stannis.

He mostly just lurks in the background grinding his teeth.

You could easily interpret his actions to mean that he disapproves of the burnings.

It cuts to the dinner table scene, where he feels that the meat is off, but Mel and Selyse are chowing down happily.

I would interpret that to mean that the human sacrifices turned his stomach.

Take some solace in that. He's at least not so utterly depraved as are his wife and concubine.

I do know they move scenes around sometimes, from one episode to the other, and I wonder how much GRRM did have to do with the writing of the Stannis scenes. I do agree with your interpretation of Stannis's feelings about the burnings as shown by his attitude and yes, his dinner complaints. I do think D&D, in some respects, have tied GRRM's hands with their Stannis writings, so far, anyway. While I do think that Stannis turning up at the Wall will, would, and should be a turning point in the show, I still have to wonder WHY...........whoever did the damn writing, couldn't have also had Florent (Axell, Alester, whoever, LOL) send some type of offer in a letter to Tywin. Irregardless of the fact that Davos is Hand and Florent wasn't at all, they could have added a bit of treasonous intent to go with the burning, it wouldn't have taken that long to explain. It could have been some extra words in the sentences about infidels, the refusing to burn the idols of The Seven, AND.........attempting to send a letter to Tywin, offering peace and offering to try and convince Stannis to marry Shireen off to Tommen. It would have been a few more sentences, I don't see the problem with them doing that little bit.

Still, I am one who does expect Stannis' character to be back on track by the end of the season. I can understand the frustration some fans may have, but..........I'm hopeful it will start turning around soon. You are right about how obvious it was that Stannis was none too pleased. Now it's time to for the show to make that even more clear.....and for Stannis to start putting his foot down to burnings that are just about religion. I hope so, I do think it's coming, and....I hope the Stanfans hang in there a bit longer. The next couple episodes should tell us.

[l2 0 5 5]

Not sure if this was covered yet, but any idea why Stannis and/or Mel didn't mention the absence of Gendry? Davos did just smuggle him out of the castle and sent him on his way without their permission.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Ross The Fiddler

[CommanderBC]

Not sure if this was covered yet, but any idea why Stannis and/or Mel didn't mention the absence of Gendry? Davos did just smuggle him out of the castle and sent him on his way without their permission.

That was covered in season 3 I believe?

paraphrasing now.

Stannis: "YOU MUST DIE"

Mel: "No, he still has a part to play, bla bla bla"

Edited April 14, 2014 by CommanderBC

[Moët]

I am loving the F out of this season so far.

• Those first scenes with Ramsey were so hard to watch. Surprisingly. I expect horror. That turned my stomach - especially Alfie's face.
  

• I'm not having the problem with Stannis's character like so many here are. He seems very torn by this crazy path he's on. He seems to honestly believe this is his path, as horrible as it is, to save the world from itself, and thinks he really has run out of all other options. It's like a person who's made a bad decision but are in denial even to themselves, and keeps trying to convince everyone (especially themselves), that this is the only path, and if they keep going ALL-IN, it will eventually turn around.
  

• Loved Bran's vision. (That does look like a blue rose in the ice - thanks for whomever screencapped that.) All the footage while he was Summer I think is a great setup for a very similar thing they could do when (and hopefully if) they finally get to Jon and Arya's warging abilities.... could be very similar footage, but the reveal is not Bran. Could be AWESOME
  

• Loved the Shae/Tyrion scene. Perfect way to set up what's to come, and creating a huge shock when it does, since the Unsullied will think she's safe.
  

• Loved everything with the Dornish. Just brilliant.
  

• Lady Olenna and her fussing with the necklace was shot perfectly, and worked so much better (and easier to shoot) than a hair net would be, especially since no one really ever wears a snood in this world, and the only person to wear serious hair jewelry is Ellaria. Love that they made it so book readers could track it fairly easily.
  

• I'd be perfectly fine with 86ing Penny.
  

• Love Jack so much.
  

Edit: Grammar fail.

Edited April 14, 2014 by Moët

[l2 0 5 5]

That was covered in season 3 I believe?

I don't believe so. I don't recall Stannis or Mel confronting Davos about smuggling Gendry away. Pretty big scene in the book cuz that's when Davos presents Stannis with the letter from the NW.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Ross The Fiddler

[Needle's Pointy End]

You're quoting me out of context here, little cub. I was pointing out exactly that, that it couldn't have been Olenna "physically" at that moment in time.

But it damn sure could have been Margaery.