[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

[Zman1863]

So, um, Tywin totally covers Tommen's eyes while his brother convulses. My heart might have cracked a little bit.

I didn't notice that either. On that note, I like how they handled Tywin's reaction. They show that quick moment where the armor comes off, but then the last shot of him has him back in control. I think if they had featured that shot of him covering Tommen's eyes more prominently I wouldn't be a fan. It seems a bit too much out of character.

[jons nissa]

Thing is, the hairnet doesn't connect her to the murder anymore than her fleeing the city,

actually her fleeing the city is her biggest connection to being guilty in the minds of those at court, especially the lannisters.

Also, Sansa really did not need more incentive to leave the city than she already had.

But I don't think LF expected that Sansa would actually go down for the crime -- making her an unwilling part of the plot was his way of binding Sansa to him with no other protectors. If she tries to leave him, LF can still drop the penny on her. I bet he could even produce the "jeweler" who "made the hairnet specifically on Lady Sansa's orders" before the wedding. No one would believe Sansa if she tried to explain how things really went down, not that I think Sansa would do that.

In any case the greatest effect is on Sansa herself: she's terrified to know that she was a pawn in this scheme and that it will come down on her if someone (like Petyr...) needs it to do so. This keeps her under LF's thumb quite nicely.

this. it wasn't about convincing sansa to leave king's landing, it was about convincing her not to try to leave him.

[Moët]

I was really hoping Jaime would not just be an ass to Loras and invite him into the Kingsguard. But I think I'm the only person who cares that he isn't in a white cloak.

It looked like that was his next statement to Loras, but Loras took offense and got snippy. Jamie was left standing there with that look of, "Why does everyone get offended when I'm sympathizing and trying to help?" on his face, just like when Ned got to King's Landing in season 1.

[kolyu]

Didn't like the way Cersei reacted. You can see there was something missing... realism i guess. She went from pure shock, to overwhelmed by madness. They could have done it better.

Didn't like when Summer killed the deer, i mean from pure technical point of view, he effects looked unrealistic. I felt like I can do it better if i had a camera. I know this might not be important to you guys... but it just looks unprofessional.

The little things grind my gear

[Cyberia]

I'm not sure why people think the Tyrells were scapegoating Sansa, except purely for jaded cynicism. Look, the Tyrells LIKE Sansa, legitimately. Straight up. The QoT and Margery have had several scenes with Sansa and there has been ZERO hint that they are double-crossing her. In fact there is an interview with Natalie Dormer where she explicitly says the Tyrells ARE NOT taking advantage of Sansa. I think people are simply to jaded by Lannister methodology. The Tyrells are not the Lannisters. They are a fusion of Lannisters+Starks. They are as crafty, clever and politically aware as the Lannisters, but still with a moral center of Duty and Justice like the Starks. Not as "good" as the Starks, but wayyyyy less evil than the Lannisters. The thing is: The Starks were too good. They were so "good" that they were blind to the reality of the world, and ultimately that is what defeated them. The Tyrells represent "as good as you can realistically be" in this world.

The Tyrells don't want to "Muhahahah RULE!" They want to rule because they understand that they alone (at this point in history) have what it takes to actually (and justly) rule the Seven Kindgoms. Remember Olenna's comment last season about "squirting the milk back up the udder"? Everything's gone to pot, and Olenna realizes that if the Tyrells DON'T act to restore things, they are guilty by complicity. They recognize the danger. They don't want to be in this situation. They wish none of this had ever happened...Joffery, the war, the Starks, the famine, etc

When they came to Kingslanding, they bid their time. They studied everyone. Gears were turning. They even called Sansa in to talk with her... because Sansa is a wildcard. It was VERY important they understood Sansa's motivation, and MOST importantly: Is Sansa a Power-player?

They realized that NO she isn't and they repeatedly tested her on this to be sure. She's just an innocent daughter of a man that himself was too innocent to recognize the danger. They realize Sansa is in an EXTREMELY dangerous situation, and they decide that if they can, they will try to help her. Legitimately. But also, helping Sansa is not their primary purpose for being here and they won't sacrifice their main goal for her...nor should they...ending Joffery's rule and the war ARE more important than the life of one girl.

So first Olenna tried to marry Sansa off to Loras. This would have been a "win-win" situation. Yes, the Tyrells would gain the "Keys to the North" but Sansa would get her fairytale story AND would be out of KL and out of the power-plays. I don't fault the Tyrells for gaining something in this arrangement. Arranged marriages are usually mutually beneficial, and the Tyrells weren't shafting the Starks.

When that fell through, Olenna worked Sansa into the main plan of killing Joffery. Again not for a scapegoat, but for JUSTICE. Olenna explains her motives as she's taking the jewel from Sansa. Listen to Olenna talking. "What sort of monster kills a man at a wedding?" Notice she's condemming Joffery and also implicating herself. Joffery is a monster...but so is Olenna (for what she's about to do), and as Tyrion says: "Monsters Are Dangerous."

Olenna thought the Lannister actions were so reprehinsible that the instrument of their destruction NEEDED to pass through Stark hands. But she isn't scapegoating Sansa because she's set up an escape plan for her. Olenna CARES about Sansa and is getting her out of this place, but only after justice is done.

Notice several things: Tyrion is being followed. So is Bron. The Lannisters know about Shae (Sansa's handmaiden), very likely the Tyrells do too. But Dontos isn't the type the Lannisters respect or fear. They AREN'T watching him, and Olenna knows this. Olenna misdirected everyone with the bit about her handmaidens getting a good necklace ("Tell the who you are and tell them who I am") . Noone suspects anything. It just seems like she wanted a nice necklace for the wedding, but no doubt they brought back MANY necklaces for her to choose..(and modify.) Then Olenna plants a necklace on Sansa via Dontos (with no one noticing) and when events transpire, Dontos (apparently stone sober) shows up to save Sansa.

The QoT is absolutely brilliant and has escalated the game to a whole new level and at the same time struck a much needed blow for the good guys AND escaped blame herself AND got Sansa out of Dodge. The ONLY bad thing that happened was that Tyrion got blamed, which was not her intent, but Tyrion is probably the best equipped to get out of the situation, certainly better equipped than Sansa.

[The Dragon has three heads]

The iron bank will have it's due.

The show runners have this all well in hand.

Everyone needs to relax.

Especially the stannis fanbois. His change is coming.

[rmholt]

I'm not sure why people think the Tyrells were scapegoating Sansa, except purely for jaded cynicism. Look, the Tyrells LIKE Sansa, legitimately. Straight up. The QoT and Margery have had several scenes with Sansa and there has been ZERO hint that they are double-crossing her. In fact there is an interview with Natalie Dormer where she explicitly says the Tyrells ARE NOT taking advantage of Sansa. I think people are simply to jaded by Lannister methodology. The Tyrells are not the Lannisters. They are a fusion of Lannisters+Starks. They are as crafty, clever and politically aware as the Lannisters, but still with a moral center of Duty and Justice like the Starks. Not as "good" as the Starks, but wayyyyy less evil than the Lannisters. The thing is: The Starks were too good. They were so "good" that they were blind to the reality of the world, and ultimately that is what defeated them. The Tyrells represent "as good as you can realistically be" in this world.

The Tyrells don't want to "Muhahahah RULE!" They want to rule because they understand that they alone (at this point in history) have what it takes to actually (and justly) rule the Seven Kindgoms. Remember Olenna's comment last season about "squirting the milk back up the udder"? Everything's gone to pot, and Olenna realizes that if the Tyrells DON'T act to restore things, they are guilty by complicity. They recognize the danger. They don't want to be in this situation. They wish none of this had ever happened...Joffery, the war, the Starks, the famine, etc

When they came to Kingslanding, they bid their time. They studied everyone. Gears were turning. They even called Sansa in to talk with her... because Sansa is a wildcard. It was VERY important they understood Sansa's motivation, and MOST importantly: Is Sansa a Power-player?

They realized that NO she isn't and they repeatedly tested her on this to be sure. She's just an innocent daughter of a man that himself was too innocent to recognize the danger. They realize Sansa is in an EXTREMELY dangerous situation, and they decide that if they can, they will try to help her. Legitimately. But also, helping Sansa is not their primary purpose for being here and they won't sacrifice their main goal for her...nor should they...ending Joffery's rule and the war ARE more important than the life of one girl.

So first Olenna tried to marry Sansa off to Loras. This would have been a "win-win" situation. Yes, the Tyrells would gain the "Keys to the North" but Sansa would get her fairytale story AND would be out of KL and out of the power-plays. I don't fault the Tyrells for gaining something in this arrangement. Arranged marriages are usually mutually beneficial, and the Tyrells weren't shafting the Starks.

When that fell through, Olenna worked Sansa into the main plan of killing Joffery. Again not for a scapegoat, but for JUSTICE. Olenna explains her motives as she's taking the jewel from Sansa. Listen to Olenna talking. "What sort of monster kills a man at a wedding?" Notice she's condemming Joffery and also implicating herself. Joffery is a monster...but so is Olenna (for what she's about to do), and as Tyrion says: "Monsters Are Dangerous."

Olenna thought the Lannister actions were so reprehinsible that the instrument of their destruction NEEDED to pass through Stark hands. But she isn't scapegoating Sansa because she's set up an escape plan for her. Olenna CARES about Sansa and is getting her out of this place, but only after justice is done.

Notice several things: Tyrion is being followed. So is Bron. The Lannisters know about Shae (Sansa's handmaiden), very likely the Tyrells do too. But Dontos isn't the type the Lannisters respect or fear. They AREN'T watching him, and Olenna knows this. Olenna misdirected everyone with the bit about her handmaidens getting a good necklace ("Tell the who you are and tell them who I am") . Noone suspects anything. It just seems like she wanted a nice necklace for the wedding, but no doubt they brought back MANY necklaces for her to choose..(and modify.) Then Olenna plants a necklace on Sansa via Dontos (with no one noticing) and when events transpire, Dontos (apparently stone sober) shows up to save Sansa.

The QoT is absolutely brilliant and has escalated the game to a whole new level and at the same time struck a much needed blow for the good guys AND escaped blame herself AND got Sansa out of Dodge. The ONLY bad thing that happened was that Tyrion got blamed, which was not her intent, but Tyrion is probably the best equipped to get out of the situation, certainly better equipped than Sansa.

We don't actually know how the Tyrells feel about Sansa except she'd be acceptable to Book Willas. They don't really want to scapegoat her and I'm sure LF made his plan sound genius for keeping Margaery out of suspicion. Once Tyrion married Sansa they couldn't get her but they were given a plan that let them think she would be safe enough, though a pawn.

They don't give two shits about Tyrion, why should they?

QoT is the Tyrell matriarch despite her origins - in fact she chose the family she married into. Sort of like Walder Frey is the patriarch.

It was a nice demo of how a seemingly overdone fuss about necklaces in one episode might need a week or more to be made fully clear to the viewer.

We don't know if Bronn was followed, took Shae off as ordered, or what. The writers could work it either way by now. TV Shae is not book Shae. I suppose someone will be high fiving if Shae returns on the back of an elk led by a guy with black hands and is strangled with Tyrion's Blackwater chain by Syrio Forel.

[The Taxman]

I'm not sure why people think the Tyrells were scapegoating Sansa, except purely for jaded cynicism. Look, the Tyrells LIKE Sansa, legitimately. Straight up. The QoT and Margery have had several scenes with Sansa and there has been ZERO hint that they are double-crossing her. In fact there is an interview with Natalie Dormer where she explicitly says the Tyrells ARE NOT taking advantage of Sansa. I think people are simply to jaded by Lannister methodology. The Tyrells are not the Lannisters. They are a fusion of Lannisters+Starks. They are as crafty, clever and politically aware as the Lannisters, but still with a moral center of Duty and Justice like the Starks. Not as "good" as the Starks, but wayyyyy less evil than the Lannisters. The thing is: The Starks were too good. They were so "good" that they were blind to the reality of the world, and ultimately that is what defeated them. The Tyrells represent "as good as you can realistically be" in this world.

The Tyrells don't want to "Muhahahah RULE!" They want to rule because they understand that they alone (at this point in history) have what it takes to actually (and justly) rule the Seven Kindgoms. Remember Olenna's comment last season about "squirting the milk back up the udder"? Everything's gone to pot, and Olenna realizes that if the Tyrells DON'T act to restore things, they are guilty by complicity. They recognize the danger. They don't want to be in this situation. They wish none of this had ever happened...Joffery, the war, the Starks, the famine, etc

When they came to Kingslanding, they bid their time. They studied everyone. Gears were turning. They even called Sansa in to talk with her... because Sansa is a wildcard. It was VERY important they understood Sansa's motivation, and MOST importantly: Is Sansa a Power-player?

They realized that NO she isn't and they repeatedly tested her on this to be sure. She's just an innocent daughter of a man that himself was too innocent to recognize the danger. They realize Sansa is in an EXTREMELY dangerous situation, and they decide that if they can, they will try to help her. Legitimately. But also, helping Sansa is not their primary purpose for being here and they won't sacrifice their main goal for her...nor should they...ending Joffery's rule and the war ARE more important than the life of one girl.

So first Olenna tried to marry Sansa off to Loras. This would have been a "win-win" situation. Yes, the Tyrells would gain the "Keys to the North" but Sansa would get her fairytale story AND would be out of KL and out of the power-plays. I don't fault the Tyrells for gaining something in this arrangement. Arranged marriages are usually mutually beneficial, and the Tyrells weren't shafting the Starks.

When that fell through, Olenna worked Sansa into the main plan of killing Joffery. Again not for a scapegoat, but for JUSTICE. Olenna explains her motives as she's taking the jewel from Sansa. Listen to Olenna talking. "What sort of monster kills a man at a wedding?" Notice she's condemming Joffery and also implicating herself. Joffery is a monster...but so is Olenna (for what she's about to do), and as Tyrion says: "Monsters Are Dangerous."

Olenna thought the Lannister actions were so reprehinsible that the instrument of their destruction NEEDED to pass through Stark hands. But she isn't scapegoating Sansa because she's set up an escape plan for her. Olenna CARES about Sansa and is getting her out of this place, but only after justice is done.

Notice several things: Tyrion is being followed. So is Bron. The Lannisters know about Shae (Sansa's handmaiden), very likely the Tyrells do too. But Dontos isn't the type the Lannisters respect or fear. They AREN'T watching him, and Olenna knows this. Olenna misdirected everyone with the bit about her handmaidens getting a good necklace ("Tell the who you are and tell them who I am") . Noone suspects anything. It just seems like she wanted a nice necklace for the wedding, but no doubt they brought back MANY necklaces for her to choose..(and modify.) Then Olenna plants a necklace on Sansa via Dontos (with no one noticing) and when events transpire, Dontos (apparently stone sober) shows up to save Sansa.

The QoT is absolutely brilliant and has escalated the game to a whole new level and at the same time struck a much needed blow for the good guys AND escaped blame herself AND got Sansa out of Dodge. The ONLY bad thing that happened was that Tyrion got blamed, which was not her intent, but Tyrion is probably the best equipped to get out of the situation, certainly better equipped than Sansa.

We all know this fool. Now write an essay on how the poisoning went down. When did she slip the crystal? Who slipped the crystal?

[Koi No Yokan]

Didn't like the way Cersei reacted. You can see there was something missing... realism i guess. She went from pure shock, to overwhelmed by madness. They could have done it better.

I think she was brilliant. Lena didn't miss a step, she had tears rolling down her cheeks after the initial shock. Cersei hates being perceived as weak and vulnerable - is it really that much of a stretch to believe she's trying to restrain herself (albeit with difficulty) in front of the public? By the looks of it the next episode picks up again from that scene, so there's still more reactions to come.

[PhoenixFlame]

I think she was brilliant. Lena didn't miss a step, she had tears rolling down her cheeks after the initial shock. Cersei hates being perceived as weak and vulnerable - is it really that much of a stretch to believe she's trying to restrain herself (albeit with difficulty) in front of the public? By the looks of it the next episode picks up again from that scene, so there's still more reactions to come.

Exactly! Cersei's a champion at tamping down her visible emotions, at least in the show interpretation, in comparison to how much she wants to rip out throats and drink her foe's blood. So yeah, it's not impossible for her to hold back the screeching grief-wracked mayhem she likely feels, but it comes out in her shoving past Margaery, shoving Jaime away, and tears brimming that she forces herself to steady.

I loooove all the itty-bitty acting moments!

Like, gawd, Iwan Rheon's expressions crack me up. His Ramsay isn't as Kaiju-esque brutal, but his sarcastic smile when he quips the hunted girl's created a problem says enough. Only for it to be tweaked when he's visibly on edge during Bolton's arrival, and shaken when Roose chastises him. Even his "Reek" comes out kind of hoarse at first. Plus, Theon trying not to puke when the girl's attacked by the dogs, and his flinchy little reactions when Roose says "Theon."

Edited April 15, 2014 by PhoenixFlame

[Colonel Green]

actually her fleeing the city is her biggest connection to being guilty in the minds of those at court, especially the lannisters.

That sentence should have been "than her fleeing the city already does".

this. it wasn't about convincing sansa to leave king's landing, it was about convincing her not to try to leave him.

That I really don't see either. Where else would she go? She'd be a fugitive from the Iron Throne either way, and nobody who'd spent ten seconds with her would believe she'd ever willingly want to go back to King's Landing.

[jons nissa]

That I really don't see either. Where else would she go? She'd be a fugitive from the Iron Throne either way, and nobody who'd spent ten seconds with her would believe she'd ever willingly want to go back to King's Landing.

being wanted for regicidal murder limits where she can go. being a runaway hostage isn't remotely as limiting.

[PhoenixDark]

Great episode with lots of nice dialogue. You can really tell when Martin is writing, as well as Cogman. Both tend to have really compelling dialogue in their episodes.

I thought Ran's episode was kind of poorly argued this week, no offense. I too have complained about the lack of subtlety in the show but I felt it worked well in this episode. Also let us not forget that in the book Tyrion notes that Oberyn demands justice every single time he sees him. That's not what I would call subtle, and given that type of behavior I could definitely imagine Oberyn referring to Cersei as he did in the episode.

[nara]

Yeah I caught it

Put in a couple posts and got nothing.

At least I knew what I thought I saw was right though I thought Tywinn was using his arms to totally cover him.

I saw your comment, but was still not able to spot it on review. I must not be looking close enough!

ETA: I finally saw it. Wow, you must watch the show frame by frame to have caught that! :bowdown:

On another note, it just occurred to me that since we don't have Taena Merrywether, there needs to be someone else who lies about seeing Tyrion put the poison in the cup. In the book, Taena and Shae are the only ones who truly lie in trial--others twist the truth and tell half-truths. Perhaps they will combine them for now and Shae will lie about seeing Tyrion place the poison--either out of spite/woman-scornedness (yes, I know that's not a word) or to save her own life from Cersei/Tywin. That would definitely make Tyrion want to kill her!

Edited April 15, 2014 by nara

[Spotted Cat]

Oh my god the laughter at Locke and Ramsay being torturebuddies :D

locke would never survive the wrath of tywin lannister. i think the show really slipped here .

[The Abominable SnowOther]

locke would never survive the wrath of tywin lannister. i think the show really slipped here .

Seems, the Lannisters dont always pay their debts

[ladyinblack]

Ramsay was the one who killed the miller's sons in the books, so he knows they weren't Bran & Rickon.

And in the show Theon did tell Ramsay that he never found the Stark boys.

Yes. That is correct. In the books Ramsey disguised as Reek even brought the Starks boys clothes & Brans wolf pin to dress the dead boys in. It was all his idea

[nara]

locke would never survive the wrath of tywin lannister. i think the show really slipped here .

agreed. but if he's headed to the wall, perhaps Janos Slynt will do the honors to try to curry favor with Tywin

[Colonel Green]

being wanted for regicidal murder limits where she can go. being a runaway hostage isn't remotely as limiting.

Not really. The world is still divided into people who support the Iron Throne, and people who are potential allies and thus either don't care or actively approve of her supposedly killing Joffrey.

And again, the hairnet makes no difference in that anyway.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Colonel Green

[Frances Bean Corbray]

locke would never survive the wrath of tywin lannister. i think the show really slipped here .

Jaime never told Tywin who took his hand. Only that he lost it but it wouldn't be a big deal. One hand, same as the other, etc. like in the books.

Now, it is curious that Tywin never asks Jaime "who did this to you?" at any point. Once Jaime defies him and Tywin gets mad at him, sure, disown him and pretend not to care for the sake of pride. But prior to that it seems like the sort of thing Tywin would very much want to know, for future debt-repayment purposes.

As it is, Tywin probably isn't going to find out now. Jaime seem unlikely to feel motivated to tell him now, and More Immediately Pressing Matters have officially just come up :) Lucky for Locke...