[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

[Phil Sand]

Sansa is missing a gem from her necklace right after lady olena plays with her hair in the scene where olena tells sansa she should come to high garden, also after the pie comes out while everyone is distracted margery puts the wine intront of olena.

[Phil Sand]

BUT WHAT THE FUCK. They have continued to Butcher Stannis... like wtf wow. He burned them for TREASON, for making secret deals with the Lannisters, not for their religion. WTF!!! Thats totally BS. Stannis was never religious, he only uses Mel as a means to an end, he's never a believer himself. WTF. Fucking horrible.

I think the thing that confuses me the most is that it was GRRM who wrote this episode. Why would he change Stannis like that...

To be fair Stannis executed them for not obeying his command.

You don't want to say no to stannis.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Yeah, I hadn't realised but that probably means Loras isn't going to join the KG. I dont know why, but that hadnt previously dawned on me.

Well that's one confusing thing since in the show Loras was a member of Renly's KG, wasn't he?

Then we have the scene with Tywin and the QoT where she agrees to the match with Cersei so Loras, the HG heir, will not be forced into the KG, right?

I have no idea what they are doing :shrugs:

Are they ignoring what has come before, or was the QoT just manipulating Tywin while she plots, or was the QoT too worried to have Loras that close to Joffrey considering what he thinks of Loras, or did she really not want him to give up his titles, or idk...

Edited April 15, 2014 by Elaena Targaryen

[Dany's Silver]

I ended up really enjoying this episode, especially now that I have rewatched it without a myriad of questions from my Unsullied friends and family. [i liked the suggestion made by someone earlier than Summer Children would be a better term for non-book readers!]

The biggest complaint I have is the fact that we don't see Tyrion figure out that Joffrey was responsible for the attempt on Bran's life. I get that it's more difficult to show this on TV than in the books, but a wordless glance from Tyrion after Joffrey says that he's familiar with Valyrian steel would work if Tyrion has a subsequent conversation with Varys. Otherwise, I can usually keep the book's canon separate from its televised version and not mind too much, but that was one pay off I enjoyed in the books and would like to have seen televised.

[Onna Lewyys]

Well that's one confusing thing since in the show Loras was a member of Renly's KG, wasn't he?

YES, THANK YOU. I'm so happy that someone else realized this. It makes no sense whatsoever.

It really doesn't, it could easily be in the top left corner(her right) of her neckline hidden behind her robe + hair.

So who do we think spoke to Bran? I hope it was CH.

You're looking at the wrong side. Look to our right/Sansa's left.

And it was Bloodraven, speaking to him through the weirwood.

[Mad Danny]

Ooh l kl

Lpp lo p I

Bill

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

YES, THANK YOU. I'm so happy that someone else realized this. It makes no sense whatsoever.

You're looking at the wrong side. Look to our right/Sansa's left.

And it was Bloodraven, speaking to him through the weirwood.

yeah the Jewel is for sure missing , not hidden by hair or anything.

[Greywolf2375]

Thanks for this. I was looking hard in the show at the part where QoT plucked the crystal, but the TV did not show it clearly. So the years old "mystery" is solved then. Read a GRRM interview and he (kinda) confirmed it's QoT as well.

On reflection, it's really funny how GRRM decided to reveal the plot to the reader through Littlefinger's conversation to Sansa in the books. But as readers, we did not really believe Littlefinger and it became a mystery to be speculated on for years instead. Hah. I'm glad I'm getting some closure on this issue! *tears up*

Well, not really. The mystery is basically solved for the show, but for the books it isn't - there were other players (Garlan for example) that had opportunity in the books that aren't present in the show. Also in the books the chalice was where the poison was and it seems unlikely QoT would have been able to reach into it.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Watching again last night I could finally see the necklace retainers for that gem were clearly empty.

Missed that totally first viewing.

I am still confused about who put the Strangler stone in the cup , I swear it looks like both Marg or Sansa could have done from hand movements. Olenna because of looks and body language , but her deed is off screen.

I will note this.

Huffpost TV ... Interview:

Q:So you think that if we rewatch the episode, we’ll be able to catch who the murderer is?

Alan Taylor : No, if you watch it again you won’t catch it. But if you analyze it, and you know who did it and how they did it -- which is another whole thing -- it tracks. And that’s all I can say.

I think this website summed up pretty nicely who killed Joff based on TV observations only.

http://imgur.com/a/2DtPH

[Talking Hodor]

Cutting from Theon to a sausage is just wrong.

What? That was the perfect segue! I've started to notice how intentional and logical the cuts from one scene to another are - it's especially important since the story is so fragmented over two continents.

[Talking Hodor]

Who the hell was that woman hunting with Ramsay?

I think she, and the hunted, were the two chicas that were prepping Theon for his emasculation in Season 3.

[Talking Hodor]

Fat Walda is actually fat!!!

I thought they cast a skinny actress so I'm glad to see she's not.

Yeah, it's super hard finding fat people to play parts in TV shows.

Seriously? Casting a skinny person would be downright confusing and fly in the face of everything mentioned in the books and TV shows so far.

[Eddard the Builder]

Interesting that this Unsullied blog doesn't suspect the QoTs

http://metro.co.uk/2014/04/15/game-of-thrones-season-four-episode-2-the-lion-and-the-rose-whodunnit-4698268/

[ovis alba]

It's especially interesting as they suspect basically everyone else. I mean Shae? Really? It never even occured to me?

Edited April 15, 2014 by ovis alba

[Talking Hodor]

Two things I liked the most in this episode were the dwarf performance and Joffrey's purple face when he started to choke.

Lady Olena really exposed to risk, when she put a poison in Joffrey's cup. Margery could also drink from it. I wonder if Sansa will be accused for poisoning, too.

Pretty sure Margaery knows not to touch that particular cup.

[Talking Hodor]

Tommen --new actor. He does look older than the last boy, but perhaps they felt it was better to have a slightly older boy to marry Marg (particularly since she is played by an actress who is 30--I think). I think he's meant to be 11-12 in the show.

I get the impression that in the show, one year passes for each season. I read somewhere that Joffrey was supposed to be 19. He was like 17 two years ago. Yes, I know he was around 13 in the books.

[Woman of War]

Thing is, the hairnet doesn't connect her to the murder anymore than her fleeing the city, because nobody knows about the hairnet, and the Tyrells couldn't bring it up without inviting questions about how they know that. Also, Sansa really did not need more incentive to leave the city than she already had.

.

But Sansa knows! She believes to have had a part in murdering Joffrey, she will believe that everyone knows and that makes her emotionally dependent of Baelish. She has to thank him now for giving her shelter and she has to believe that she will never be free of that murder accusation. If now Baelish might make her believe that she has a part in Robin's death then he absolutely has her in his pockets emotionally. And physically because she'd have nowhere to go. As Sansa she poisoned the king, as Alayne she believes herself to have killed the boy. Catch 22, LF's perfect tool.

[Talking Hodor]

Forgot to ask. What does Stannis mean by "meat's off"?. Don't get it, me not speaks american.

They're running out of good meat since they're kinda besieged, which means they're probably down to grilling old gym mats.

In 32 episodes, I have yet to hear one iota of American English.

[Onna Lewyys]

I get the impression that in the show, one year passes for each season. I read somewhere that Joffrey was supposed to be 19. He was like 17 two years ago. Yes, I know he was around 13 in the books.

That works for some storylines, like KL, but not others. Because in that case, it took Bran & co. an entire year to walk from Winterfell to the Wall.

[pantouflas]

Yes, it does mean he wasn't, because that makes no sense, and it wouldn't have any meaning at this point in the story anyway.

What makes no sense? That the best strategist in Westeros would not want to get rid of the worst king in years, who started the war by beheading Ned Stark and attempting to kill Bran? The guy who would probably get them all killed in the end, like the Mad King got all the Targaryens killed?? It's obvious even in the books that he was happy to have Tommen on the throne.

I have no idea what you mean with your second argument.