[Book Spoilers] EP402 Discussion

[Woman of War]

Why doesn't Sansa just pull an Arya and shank Littlefinger a couple times with a sharp blade?

Because she is Sansa and not Arya?

I'd certainly like Sansa to become more active but there are different ways of being active and I guess this would not be her approach.

Apart from that putting a character in that kind of ambiguous situation, letting said character simmer for a while and flirt with going over to the dark side simply makes a good story.

she has no reason for wanting LF death. however, i don't understand why everyone believes LF wants to kill Robyn??

I am not really sure if Baelish wants to kill Robin right now but I think it may happen by accident and Baelish may make use of it, morally handcuffing Sansa, or making Sansa his tool may at some point be more important than Little Lord Arryn alive.

And indeed, so far Sasa has little reason to distrust LF, she simply does not know what he did to her family. By now he is her, albeit somewhat sinister, benefactor, the man who saved her not only from a murder accusation but also from her mean aunt.

Coming back to the Arya comparison: Sansa could make use of her abilities and spy on Baelish, question people, read his letters....... whatever clever investigation could be done - if Martin wants her to become clever so soon.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Woman of War

[TsX5]

Sansa has been through a lot too so I hate when people compare her with Arya. I love Arya and I didn't really liked Sansa in the beggining but she grew a lot and I admire her strenght.

[dbunting]

I can definitely see LF making sure Sweet Robin dies in the next book. His whole being wants power and if the person he is trying to use as a puppet, Sansa, is married to the Lord of the Vale, then LF is emmensely powerful. He could rally the North and use the army of the Vale to take Winterfell back. He will absolutely try to ensure Sweet Robin dies soon.

[kaanchanoone]

A few topics of note:

Might have been addressed, but I didn't make it through all 60 pages of the thread since most of it focused on the necklace.

Do they have a reveal plan for Balon Greyjoy? They may touch on that when they get back to Yara or Moat Calon?

The 5 Kings mummers show - the Robb Stark dwarf has a very deep voice yelling "I'm the King of the North." -- doubtful that it will turn out to be Penny. Most likely, one of the performers will be her brother. The irony would be if the dwarf who played Joffrey turned out to be her brother (and subsequently killed because of Tyrion) - now she would seek vengeance for "Joff".

I'm a little disappointed that they ignored a Loras/Brienne confrontation. I expected a fight between them because Lora would still believe Brienne killed Renly. I guess that was covered by the Margaery/Brienne scene last week.

Speaking of Loras - they may wait until Cersei has complete power/control to dissolve her engagement with Loras and as a way to hurt the Tyrells - force him to join the Kingsguard to take away their only heir.

Thoughts?

Regarding Loras and Brienne's confrontation -

IIRC When Renly dies Margaery says that Brienne of Tarth killed Loras and Loras says something like "I don't believe that. You don't believe that." He basically believes that Stannis killed Renly...so there wouldn't be a confrontation on the show.

[kaanchanoone]

ShowLoras has already said (while looking at Renly's body) to both Margaery and LF that he doesn't believe Brienne had anything to do with Renly's death.

Woops did not see this reply!

[raj34]

So I finally got around to re-watching this episode, and damn - I honestly feel like Joffrey's death is the single most uncomfortable moment on the show for me thus far. Just like in the books, it's this odd mixture of "Yes, it's finally happening!" and horror of a boy choking to death in the arms of his mother, while she watches him die in fear and agony.

It's strange. I know the big story for everyone is that Joffrey is dead, and everyone's celebrating about his long overdue comeuppance; but just like in the books, it never truly felt like a victory for me. So credit (again) to GRRM, Jack Gleeson, Lena Headey, and the rest of the cast & crew who crafted that scene.

Joffrey's death is horrifying, and makes me squirm just as much as a certain child's death in The Wire. You know a book/show is good when you actually feel sorry for one of the biggest monsters in the story.

Gleeson is too old to pull off the "he's a monster, but still only a child" angle. At least for me. I didn't feel uncomfortable about it at all.

[The 10th Penny King]

Regarding Loras and Brienne's confrontation -

IIRC When Renly dies Margaery says that Brienne of Tarth killed Loras and Loras says something like "I don't believe that. You don't believe that." He basically believes that Stannis killed Renly...so there wouldn't be a confrontation on the show.

Totally forgot about that scene. It had such an impact in the book when they clash and Brienne was jailed, I think I ignored the show's divergence.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Last night after I rewatched the scene in Dragonstone, I came to the conclusion that DD want us to put our eyes on Shireen and Stannis, rather than anything R'hllor or mel related. I wrote yesterday that Selyse simply looks jelous of Shireen and I think that's what DD wants us to think as well, whatever their reasons are: copypasting from another thread:

- Stannis is clearly disgusted by everything around him, including Davos. Shireen is not there, though. He probably doesn't want her around the whole mess that it's his life. Shireen's absence means to me that for Stannis, the world now is divided in two things: everything he hates and Shireen. And Shireen doesn't mix with the things he hates.

- Selyse also disgusts him. He didn't say it with words, but he's pretty much implying that she might be his wife but that's all. She even tries to recall what she might perceive as a caring act of Stannis, but he barely reacts to the memory: "of course I remember", like "well, duh, I was there".

- She changes the conversation to the lord of light and Stannis is all "meh". He pays attention when Selyse baits him with something she knows he cares: Shireen, and then she calls her a "stubborn little beast". That doesn't sound like something she would say simply because Shireen refuses to "convert". To me, it looks like she actually dislikes the girl, maybe because of the greyscale, maybe because she's a girl. Or maybe...

- Selyse states that Stannis thinks Shireen's sweet because she smiles at him. While in the previous dialogue is clear that Stannis barely pays attention to his wife besides his marital duties of feeding her and keeping her safe, Shireen doesn't need to do anything but to smile to have Stannis' attention and love, something Selyse doesn't have.

- Selyse also calls Shireen "sullen, subborn and sinful". She's pretty much describing Stannis right there. It's Selyse the one who doesn't know Stannis.

The whole scene is quite symbolic because of the dialogue and the food scenery: Selyse is starving from Stannis' favour and she's unable to provide him with anything he likes ("the meat's off, get something else"). She even got him a women who promises him being King and he's still unhappy. Stannis complains about the food while Selyse simply eats it in silence and tries to do her best with the few she has: that's their marriage. And when Melisandre speaks of suffering hunger as a child until the Lord of Light found her, that's Selyse right there, being hungry of something else (love) until Melisandre found her.

[kaanchanoone]

Totally forgot about that scene. It had such an impact in the book when they clash and Brienne was jailed, I think I ignored the show's divergence.

Ya I had forgotten about it too. I only remembered because I'm on an Obsessive Rewatching Project. Har!

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I can't see a rose, but a face: http://i.imgur.com/ZR5pB9Q.png

I hate when HBO makes me care for evil bastards.

Bastards!

LOL, I see lots of blue reflections in there, not sure where it's coming from, though.

And Damn, Grandpa Tywin covering Tommen's eyes. It's as if he knows and cares how a kid like Tommen might be effected by seeing such ugliness. That is as surprising as the humanity that Roose shows on tv from time to time. I do love the little empathetic look in Roose's eyes once in awhile. hehehehe

[Needle's Pointy End]

We all know this fool. Now write an essay on how the poisoning went down. When did she slip the crystal? Who slipped the crystal?

Fool? Who you calling fool, buddy?

[TheKitttenGuard]

LOL, I see lots of blue reflections in there, not sure where it's coming from, though.

And Damn, Grandpa Tywin covering Tommen's eyes. It's as if he knows and cares how a kid like Tommen might be effected by seeing such ugliness. That is as surprising as the humanity that Roose shows on tv from time to time. I do love the little empathetic look in Roose's eyes once in awhile. hehehehe

Yes but Tommen is The King now.

Tywinn move is to protect The King. Tywinn knows power and knew where it is now.

[nara]

I get the impression that in the show, one year passes for each season. I read somewhere that Joffrey was supposed to be 19. He was like 17 two years ago. Yes, I know he was around 13 in the books.

I don't think 1 year can pass for each season because that would mean they waited over a year between Blackwater and Marg/Joff wedding, which would be unnecessary. I think they just ignore the aging of the child actors--there's no good way to deal with it--and pray they don't grow as fast as Sansa and Bran have.

[Needle's Pointy End]

What do most of them think? He'll die up North?

I think Stannis will do a lot of the heavy lifting to defeat the Lannister army with help from the north. He may even take a good chunk out of Dany's army.... but he will ultimately die and clear a path for Jon Snow to take the realm.

[Cersei the Great]

So I finally got around to re-watching this episode, and damn - I honestly feel like Joffrey's death is the single most uncomfortable moment on the show for me thus far. Just like in the books, it's this odd mixture of "Yes, it's finally happening!" and horror of a boy choking to death in the arms of his mother, while she watches him die in fear and agony.

It's strange. I know the big story for everyone is that Joffrey is dead, and everyone's celebrating about his long overdue comeuppance; but just like in the books, it never truly felt like a victory for me. So credit (again) to GRRM, Jack Gleeson, Lena Headey, and the rest of the cast & crew who crafted that scene.

Joffrey's death is horrifying, and makes me squirm just as much as a certain child's death in The Wire. You know a book/show is good when you actually feel sorry for one of the biggest monsters in the story.

I agree. I am going to miss Jack. Well Done!

[boojam]

Do they have a reveal plan for Balon Greyjoy? They may touch on that when they get back to Yara or Moat Calon?

Seems to me the Iron Islands are problem for D&D, I think because they did not appear in SoS.

First the flapdoodle with the Asha - Yara thing...

And now what the hell is Yara/Asha's story in season 4?

I can't figure it out.

[jons nissa]

Last night after I rewatched the scene in Dragonstone, I came to the conclusion that DD want us to put our eyes on Shireen and Stannis, rather than anything R'hllor or mel related. I wrote yesterday that Selyse simply looks jelous of Shireen and I think that's what DD wants us to think as well, whatever their reasons are: copypasting from another thread:

- Stannis is clearly disgusted by everything around him, including Davos. Shireen is not there, though. He probably doesn't want her around the whole mess that it's his life. Shireen's absence means to me that for Stannis, the world now is divided in two things: everything he hates and Shireen. And Shireen doesn't mix with the things he hates.

- Selyse also disgusts him. He didn't say it with words, but he's pretty much implying that she might be his wife but that's all. She even tries to recall what she might perceive as a caring act of Stannis, but he barely reacts to the memory: "of course I remember", like "well, duh, I was there".

- She changes the conversation to the lord of light and Stannis is all "meh". He pays attention when Selyse baits him with something she knows he cares: Shireen, and then she calls her a "stubborn little beast". That doesn't sound like something she would say simply because Shireen refuses to "convert". To me, it looks like she actually dislikes the girl, maybe because of the greyscale, maybe because she's a girl. Or maybe...

- Selyse states that Stannis thinks Shireen's sweet because she smiles at him. While in the previous dialogue is clear that Stannis barely pays attention to his wife besides his marital duties of feeding her and keeping her safe, Shireen doesn't need to do anything but to smile to have Stannis' attention and love, something Selyse doesn't have.

- Selyse also calls Shireen "sullen, subborn and sinful". She's pretty much describing Stannis right there. It's Selyse the one who doesn't know Stannis.

The whole scene is quite symbolic because of the dialogue and the food scenery: Selyse is starving from Stannis' favour and she's unable to provide him with anything he likes ("the meat's off, get something else"). She even got him a women who promises him being King and he's still unhappy. Stannis complains about the food while Selyse simply eats it in silence and tries to do her best with the few she has: that's their marriage. And when Melisandre speaks of suffering hunger as a child until the Lord of Light found her, that's Selyse right there, being hungry of something else (love) until Melisandre found her.

very nice analysis of the scene. while everyone is focusing on the word infidel, they are really missing out on the really important stuff, i.e. what you've described here.

[Needle's Pointy End]

Sansa is missing a gem from her necklace right after lady olena plays with her hair in the scene where olena tells sansa she should come to high garden, also after the pie comes out while everyone is distracted margery puts the wine intront of olena.

Sorry but this has been rehashed a million times... Olenna is never close to the wine goblet. She is sitting down at her table and the goblet is on the Kings table. There is a knight right in front of Joffery's wine goblet and Olenna would have been caught if she leaned over and plopped something in there... The only way it happened is if Margaery slipped the stone in Joffery's wine when he gave her his wine goblet so he could cut the pie...

[boojam]

I'm a little disappointed that they ignored a Loras/Brienne confrontation. I expected a fight between them because Lora would still believe Brienne killed Renly. I guess that was covered by the Margaery/Brienne scene last week.

I thought they only worked Brienne in because she was not aware the Tyrells did not suspect her.

Edited April 15, 2014 by boojam

[Needle's Pointy End]

But Sansa knows! She believes to have had a part in murdering Joffrey, she will believe that everyone knows and that makes her emotionally dependent of Baelish. She has to thank him now for giving her shelter and she has to believe that she will never be free of that murder accusation. If now Baelish might make her believe that she has a part in Robin's death then he absolutely has her in his pockets emotionally. And physically because she'd have nowhere to go. As Sansa she poisoned the king, as Alayne she believes herself to have killed the boy. Catch 22, LF's perfect tool.

I don't think Sansa gives a rats a$$ that she is blamed for the murder.... All she cares is that vengeance was served. This is why it was the perfect crime for Olenna... When she had Sansa wisked away by the fool, it made Sansa look guilty and Sansa has all the motive in the world to kill Joffery, while Olenna has none, considering the wedding bill she just paid for.